Why do Mormons want to be called Christian?

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_BartBurk
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Re: Why do Mormons want to be called Christian?

Post by _BartBurk »

Albion wrote:
I think you are misstating the evangelical and larger protestant position on this topic. The scriptures are full of passages that firmly attest to the believer being made righteous (saved) through faith...justified before God...made right with him in his sight by his grace because of their faith in his Son. Continued grace enables the believer to live a life centered in good works and obedience to God. They are the demonstration of the saving grace that has taken place in the repentant sinner, given through faith, and not the means to earn that salvation ...."..lest any man boast". One would be perfectly right to question the sincerity of any claimed salvation if the claimant's life did not reflect the presence of God's grace through his/her actions. Works are the result of saving grace and not in any way the means to earn it.


There is no evangelical and larger protestant position on this topic. Protestantism is split into hundreds of sects with all kinds of different angles on this topic. When I listen to Billy Graham, I hear a person talk about "settling the issue of your salvation this night before leaving here." He's of the "once saved always saved" persuasion. You can't lose your salvation. I've called his number, said the sinner's prayer, and been told that I no longer had to worry about my salvation. Then there are the Arminians mostly represented by groups spawned by the teachings of John Wesley who say you can lose your salvation if your works don't measure up. I well remember hearing Mark Lowry joke with Bill Gaither about how he was a Baptist so he could sin all he wanted to, but Gaither was a member of a group who said he could lose his salvation. While I think what you have said is the common apologetic you get from a Protestant who believes people are saved by faith alone, the reality is that most Protestants don't even agree on what actions are sins. One Protestant might believe that abortion is a sin, while another Protestant would claim there is nothing wrong with abortion. I notice T.D. Jakes, a Oneness Pentecostal who rejects the Trinity doctrine, is acceptable viewing on the Trinity Broadcasting Network! Locally, a local Christian station has Irving Baxter with his "Politics and Religion" show spouting about how the Pope is the anti-Christ even though Baxter is a Oneness believer as well.

So back to the original question, Mormons want to be called Christian because they worship Christ as they understand him. I prefer to refer to the Mormon Church as an unorthodox Christian group rather than as non-Christian. They are not Trinitarian Christians and according to the Catholic Church their baptisms aren't valid, but they at least in my mind would seem to have a desire to do what Christ asked them to do through baptism even if they misunderstand it. I think calling them non-Christian (and I know that many Catholic experts have called Mormons non-Christians) is a bit too strong.
_Albion
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Re: Why do Mormons want to be called Christian?

Post by _Albion »

You state your disagreement with my premise and then proceed to provide substantiation of your position with anecdotal evidences that do not relate to the topic at hand. Of course there are differences of opinion between denominations on a whole variety of topics...the very reason why there are diverse denominations in the first place. However, I believe there to be a great deal of unity of belief on those core issues that relate to salvation...in the topic under discussion... that salvation comes by grace through faith and not by works "lest any man boast." Does that mean that works are not important? Of course not...but they are the demonstration of the presence of saving grace and not the means to earn it as I have pointed out. The convicted sinner, repentant of his/her sin, claims the free redemption offered by Christ through faith and as numerous scriptures point out receives a righteousness FROM God that justifies them before him. Good works alone will never justify any person before God and I believe that to be a core teaching of a broad spectrum of protestant Christianity. Righteousness/justification before God comes from him...it is not earned by good works.
_ldsfaqs
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Re: Why do Mormons want to be called Christian?

Post by _ldsfaqs »

Albion wrote:Seems to me there was a time when Mormons did not want to be associated in any way with Christians. The issues was not pushed by Mormons until some time in the 70s when a group opposed to Mormonism (I think in Arizona) began using the charge in their wider advertising. Until that time it seems to me Mormons were quite happy to be referred to as Mormons first.


Not true.... We always associated with Christians in our history, and further the ONLY reason for the "change" is because we are "mainstream" now, and people are finally learning who we are. We always referred to ourselves as Christians, it's simply the world that has "changed", not us.
"Socialism is Rape and Capitalism is consensual sex" - Ben Shapiro
_Bazooka
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Re: Why do Mormons want to be called Christian?

Post by _Bazooka »

ldsfaqs wrote:
Albion wrote:Seems to me there was a time when Mormons did not want to be associated in any way with Christians. The issues was not pushed by Mormons until some time in the 70s when a group opposed to Mormonism (I think in Arizona) began using the charge in their wider advertising. Until that time it seems to me Mormons were quite happy to be referred to as Mormons first.


Not true.... We always associated with Christians in our history, and further the ONLY reason for the "change" is because we are "mainstream" now, and people are finally learning who we are. We always referred to ourselves as Christians, it's simply the world that has "changed", not us.


Here is Joseph Smith's account of how Jesus told him to associate himself with the rest of Christianity....
I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

Here is Gordon B Hinckley explaining just how alike Mormonism is to the rest of Christianity in it's beliefs about Christ....
"In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints 'do not believe in the traditional Christ.' 'No, I don't. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak. For the Christ of whom I speak has been revealed in this the Dispensation of the Fullness of Times. He together with His Father, appeared to the boy Joseph Smith in the year 1820, and when Joseph left the grove that day, he knew more of the nature of God than all the learned ministers of the gospel of the ages.'" (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7).

Boyd. K Packer, during General Conference in October 1985 explains to how closely aligned Mormonism is with the rest of Christianity....
One doctrine presents a particular challenge. It is our firm conviction that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is, as the revelations state, “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth.” (D&C 1:30.)
A few weeks ago I was returning from the East with President Hinckley. We conversed with a passenger who said something to the effect that all churches lead to heaven. How often have you heard that—the parallel path to heaven philosophy?
They claim one church is not really better than another, just different. Eventually the paths will converge. One is, therefore, quite as safe in any church as in any other.
While this seems to be very generous, it just cannot be true.

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/1 ... h?lang=eng

(It is also worth noting that, should a Mormon decide to be a Christian in some other branch of Christianity, the Mormon Church will endorse that, by excommunicating that Mormon)

But hey don't let the facts get in the way of good spin.
That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)
_Albion
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Re: Why do Mormons want to be called Christian?

Post by _Albion »

ldsfaqs wrote:
Albion wrote:Seems to me there was a time when Mormons did not want to be associated in any way with Christians. The issues was not pushed by Mormons until some time in the 70s when a group opposed to Mormonism (I think in Arizona) began using the charge in their wider advertising. Until that time it seems to me Mormons were quite happy to be referred to as Mormons first.


Not true.... We always associated with Christians in our history, and further the ONLY reason for the "change" is because we are "mainstream" now, and people are finally learning who we are. We always referred to ourselves as Christians, it's simply the world that has "changed", not us.



Your post appears to contain a contradiction. You admit to a "change" in the use of the term because you are now "mainstream" but then claim that Mormons have "always" referred to themselves as Christians. That's called having it both ways. From the very beginning of his formulation of the Mormon Church, Joseph Smith claimed that an angel told him that all Christian churches then in existence were an "abomination" and that those who trusted in them were "corrupt" and yet you now claim that Mormons have "always associated with Christians in our history". Which exactly is it? I don't know if you were a Mormon as far back as the seventies...perhaps you were in one of your other incarnations learning everything you claim to to know about other churches...but the term Christian was rarely used by Mormons. My own experience in journalism in Utah at that time tells me otherwise. It is interesting that you accept the idea of Mormon "mainstreaming", a term used by outside observers and critics of Mormonism to describe the process the Mormon Church has been going through for the past number of years to make itself and its doctrines less bizarre to the outside world and by extension to potential converts. Some churches do side with the Mormon Church on some moral, political or societal issues but that is far from representing any kind of spiritual communion...communion being a word you avoided choosing instead the word "association". Association does fit the situations I describe but as I pointed out in an earlier post, the orthodox Christian can find spiritual communion in any number of churches but certainly not in a Mormon ward house...the reverse is also true because the fundamental differences are too vast to bridge.

In reality, I don't much care what Mormons choose to call themselves. Too often this discussion is a distraction from the real issues that separate Mormon doctrine form traditional Biblical Christianity. There is where the distinctions lie....but since even you admit to Mormon mainstreaming perhaps there is hope that some time in the future the Mormon leadership will choose to abandon fully those beliefs that keep the Mormon Church from spiritual communion with other churches.
_Roger Morrison
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Re: Why do Mormons want to be called Christian?

Post by _Roger Morrison »

First time back for many moons so gotta reorient myself: # 1: Is Jason 15, THE Jason of yesteryear? Or a junior Knock-off? Not that it really matters. . .
# 2: Is TRUTH DANCER still performing here? That does matter! She's one of the Great-ones!!

To the topic: Because Mormons are by nurtured-nature (Acculturated) to be both arrogant and selfish.
While pretending humility and generosity. At the same time professing uniqueness & god commanded distinction -- so they say -- "A peculiar people"! That is until they don't want to be. . .

When LDS Hierarchy matures, I don't mean "ages". Rather when decisions are intelligent-based, not faith-based they will demonstrate sincerity by displaying the universal insignia of Christianism:
the cross. Need not be grandiose. Simply symbolic to identify with the larger group, that they claim to be a part of. It is difficult differentiating between LDS ignorance, tradition, mythology, legend, exaggeration, truth & untruth

Maybe, they might even add the universal Christian hymn, AMAZING GRACE, to a future LDS Hymn Book. (If they haven't already?)

Nice to be back! Look forward to renewing acquaintances & making new ones! Live well!
Roger Morrison, www.rhmorrison.ca
Have you noticed what a beautiful day it is? Some can't...
"God": nick-name for the Universe...
_Fence Sitter
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Re: Why do Mormons want to be called Christian?

Post by _Fence Sitter »

Welcome back Roger.

I have not seen a post by Truth Dancer in quite some time and Jason15 seems to have disappeared, which, unlike Truth Dancer, is no great loss.
"Any over-ritualized religion since the dawn of time can make its priests say yes, we know, it is rotten, and hard luck, but just do as we say, keep at the ritual, stick it out, give us your money and you'll end up with the angels in heaven for evermore."
_thequeensblessing
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Re: Why do Mormons want to be called Christian?

Post by _thequeensblessing »

I see this has been touched on, but by no means hashed out. There's been mention made of the "criteria" associated with the name "Christian". What is this criteria? From whence does it come, the Bible or other scriptures? Doctrines of men? A combination of the two perhaps? What did Christ say about it? (And why not look to him as he is the one whose name we are vying to share or deny, true?)

I don't squabble over people saying I'm not a Christian. We are a peculiar people. We call ourselves Christian. Does it matter what the rest of the world views us as? (Perhaps only so far as proselyting goes, I'll grant that.) There are those individuals out there who are recognized by nearly all churches as being "Christian" yet conduct themselves in so contrary a manner to everything I, personally, think of as being "Christian" that I often don't know if I truly want to be classed in the same category as they are. Sometimes, it would seem, that the very name "Christian" has been usurped to mean a "good ol' boys club".
_LittleNipper
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Re: Why do Mormons want to be called Christian?

Post by _LittleNipper »

I find that the main criteria for a "Christian," would be the understanding that the Lord Jesus Christ is in fact GOD and that there is but one GOD. This means that there is ONE GOD that has always existed as a union of Three beings joined as one eternal essence. The understanding how this can be is not important. But the fact that Christ is GOD, His Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and that these three are in fact together ONE GOD has to be embraced. The rejection of such leads to Islam, Mormonism and Russellism ------ and the like.
_ludwigm
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Re: Why do Mormons want to be called Christian?

Post by _ludwigm »

LittleNipper wrote:I find that the main criteria for a "Christian," would be the understanding that the Lord Jesus Christ is in fact GOD and that there is but one GOD.
As a starting point, this can be marked.
LittleNipper wrote:... that there is but one GOD.
one ...



LittleNipper wrote:But the fact that Christ is GOD, His Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and that these three are in fact together ONE GOD has to be embraced.
Holy crap.


LittleNipper wrote:But the fact that Christ is GOD, His Father is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and that these three are in fact together ONE GOD has to be embraced. The rejection of such leads to Islam, Mormonism and Russellism ------ and the like.
Mormon holy crap.

Doctrine and Covenants 99:2 And who receiveth you receiveth me; and you shall have power to declare my word in the demonstration of my Holy Spirit.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
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