It is currently Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:43 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 59 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Gnat Straining and the Apologist
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:45 pm 
Sunbeam

Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2012 3:39 am
Posts: 58
Over the years I've had several conversations with many faithful believing Mormons and have read several books from Mormon historians about the considerable intellectual and historical issues within Mormonism. The one consistent argument defenders of the faith ultimately entrench themselves into is that “men are not perfect” and that critics are merely “straining at gnats” when they criticize Mormon issues. I have read many complaints about the church that I agree simply do not reach the high bar needed to invalidate the church’s truth claims. So the question then becomes, what issues can we consider as gnat sized critisizms?

Let me illustrate a few examples of what I would consider “gnat straining” arguments. President Monson’s unfortunate statement during the ribbon cutting at the city creek mall, “One, two, three—let’s go shopping!” When some rouge local leader acts outside the bounds of reason, uses poor judgment and offends someone. Or when early church leaders would publicly debate some of the finer points of doctrine such as, whether God progresses eternally or not. While unfortunate, I would agree with the apologists, these types of small issues do not nullify the church’s truth claims. I would contend that when we criticize, what are clearly gnat sized human foibles that all men are subject too, we run the risk of sounding much like the hypocrites Jesus was condemning in Matthew 23:23-24.

Where the apologists get it very wrong is when they use the “straining at gnats” argument on very important, critical issues that strike at the very core of Mormonism. These issues are regarding the very foundations of the church, which speak to its credibility and clearly go well beyond gnat sized problems.

Let me illustrate just a few examples of problems that are much larger in scope than the gnat sized issues mentioned above:

• The “stone-in-hat” method of translation: This clearly connects Joseph to his glass looking occultic practices and questions his credibility, especially when his 1826 arrest and examination for glass looking is also considered.
• Sexual Impropriety: From the very beginning Joseph had issues around this subject. He eloped with Emma, then soon after his marriage rumors began about inappropriate advances to Emma’s friends, then Fanny Alger, the teenage marriages, and polyandry. Again, these are serious issues that help build the picture of his credibility.
• The temple ceremony: Many Mormon’s believe that Freemasonry was passed down by Stone Masons from Solomon’s temple, hence why so much of the Mormon ceremony contains Masonry. We now know that Masonry originated in Europe sometime in the 1400’s and that it developed over time to what is was in Josephs Smiths day. When Joseph’s original temple ceremony is compared to masonry it is strikingly similar in many ways suggesting plagiarism.
• The Book of Abraham, according to apologist, is no longer a translation of the papyri (as we would use the word translation) but rather the papyri were just tools to spur inspiration.
• All the anachronisms and problems with the Book of Mormon that are far too many to list in this post.


In comparison, these, along with several other items, are clearly much greater than gnats, these are the 800lb hippopotamus, or water horse in the room!


Last edited by Dcharle on Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:51 pm, edited 8 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gnat Straining and the Apologist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 3:20 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:01 am
Posts: 6363
Location: Get ready to feel the THUNDER!
Dcharle wrote:
I have had many conversations over the years with faithful believing Mormons and read several books from Mormon historians about the considerable intellectual and historical issues within Mormonism. The one consistent argument defenders of the faith ultimately entrench themselves into is that “men are not perfect” and that critics are merely “straining at gnats” when they criticize Mormon issues. I have read many complaints about the church that I agree simply do not reach the high bar needed to invalidate the church’s truth claims. So the question then becomes, what do we consider as a gnat?

Let me illustrate a few examples of what I would consider “gnat straining” arguments. President Monson’s unfortunate statement during the ribbon cutting at the city creek mall, “One, two, three—let’s go shopping!” When some rouge local leader acts outside the bounds of reason, uses poor judgment and offends someone. Or when early church leaders would publicly debate some of the finer points of doctrine such as, whether God progresses externally of not. While unfortunate, I would agree with the apologists, these types of small issues do not nullify the church’s truth claims. I would contend that when we criticize, what are clearly gnat sized human foibles that all men are subject too, we run the risk of sounding much like the hypocrites Jesus was condemning in Matthew 23:23-24.

Where the apologists get it very wrong is when they use the “straining at gnats” argument on very important, critical issues that strike at the very core of Mormonism. These issues are regarding the very foundations of the church, which speak to its credibility and clearly go well beyond gnat sized problems.

Let me illustrate just a few examples of problems that go well beyond gnat sized issues:

• The “stone-in-hat” method of translation: This clearly connects Joseph to his glass looking occultic practices and questions his credibility, especially when his 1826 arrest and examination for glass looking is also considered.
• Sexual Impropriety: From the very beginning Joseph had issues around this subject. He eloped with Emma, then soon after his marriage rumors began about inappropriate advances to Emma’s friends, then Fanny Alger, the teenage marriages, and polyandry. Again, these are serious issues that help build the picture of his credibility.
• The temple ceremony: Many Mormon’s believe that Freemasonry was passed down by Stone Masons from Solomon’s temple, hence why so much of the Mormon ceremony contains Masonry. We now know that Masonry originated in Europe sometime in the 1400’s and that it developed over time to what is was in Josephs Smiths day. When Joseph’s original temple ceremony is compared to masonry it is strikingly similar in many ways suggesting plagiarism.
• The Book of Abraham, according to apologist, is no longer a translation of the papyri (as we would use the word translation) but rather the papyri were just tools to spur inspiration.
• All the anachronisms and problems with the Book of Mormon that are far too many to list in this post.


In comparison, these, along with several other items, are clearly much greater than gnats, these are the 800lb hippopotamus, or water horse in the room!

All of the the issues you list above are relatively unimportant compared to the real issues involved. Mormonism boils down to a belief that God can tell you what is true and what is not. Speak with God and do what God tells you to do. I know apologists want to defend Mormonism on another basis, but as I've often stated on this forum - Mormonism is untenable because of its outlandish claims (we are literally talking about people seeing God, Angels, and having Gold Plates land in their lap) and should be considered a fraud and a hoax UNLESS God tells you it is true. That is the only reason to be Mormon and is exactly what God intended with it. Moroni's promise, the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith's first vision, and so on are all about speaking with God directly and doing what God tells you to do and believe.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gnat Straining and the Apologist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 4:47 am 
CTR A

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:44 am
Posts: 137
Tobin wrote:

All of the the issues you list above are relatively unimportant compared to the real issues involved. Mormonism boils down to a belief that God can tell you what is true and what is not. Speak with God and do what God tells you to do. I know apologists want to defend Mormonism on another basis, but as I've often stated on this forum - Mormonism is untenable because of its outlandish claims (we are literally talking about people seeing God, Angels, and having Gold Plates land in their lap) and should be considered a fraud and a hoax UNLESS God tells you it is true. That is the only reason to be Mormon and is exactly what God intended with it. Moroni's promise, the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith's first vision, and so on are all about speaking with God directly and doing what God tells you to do and believe.



The verse from James refers to obtaining wisdom from God. The Moroni promise, and now you, claim that one can obtain knowledge from God. The difference between wisdom and knowledge is that knowledge is knowing a set of facts. Wisdom involves how we make use of the knowledge we have. The historicity of the Book of Mormon, The claims of Joseph Smith, would all be considered knowledge.
Many people (including Joseph Smith) have attempted to use there claimed psychic ability to unravel the mysteries of the universe. When they attempt to use God as a source of knowledge they seem to end up with differing scenarios.
Moses talked to God for 40 years. If God wanted to provide knowledge about everything he had ample opportunity. The fact that he didn't shows that he didn't want to. He doesn't really care what we believe.

_________________
May all your naps be joyous occasions.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gnat Straining and the Apologist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:45 am 
God

Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:52 am
Posts: 7306
Tobin wrote:
Mormonism is untenable because of its outlandish claims (we are literally talking about people seeing God...


Are you saying that someone's claim of seeing God should be automatically treated as 'outlandish'?

_________________
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gnat Straining and the Apologist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:00 am 
God

Joined: Mon May 07, 2012 2:43 pm
Posts: 1390
Within the premise of accepting God and his desire for our salvation anything that detracts from worship of that God would be the creation of the adversary. If the adversary is capable of creating falsehoods he is surely capable of giving false "inspiration" for mortals to accept those falsehoods . Even the devil can transform himself into an angel of light.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gnat Straining and the Apologist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 7:25 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:01 am
Posts: 6363
Location: Get ready to feel the THUNDER!
sleepyhead wrote:
Tobin wrote:

All of the the issues you list above are relatively unimportant compared to the real issues involved. Mormonism boils down to a belief that God can tell you what is true and what is not. Speak with God and do what God tells you to do. I know apologists want to defend Mormonism on another basis, but as I've often stated on this forum - Mormonism is untenable because of its outlandish claims (we are literally talking about people seeing God, Angels, and having Gold Plates land in their lap) and should be considered a fraud and a hoax UNLESS God tells you it is true. That is the only reason to be Mormon and is exactly what God intended with it. Moroni's promise, the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith's first vision, and so on are all about speaking with God directly and doing what God tells you to do and believe.



The verse from James refers to obtaining wisdom from God. The Moroni promise, and now you, claim that one can obtain knowledge from God. The difference between wisdom and knowledge is that knowledge is knowing a set of facts. Wisdom involves how we make use of the knowledge we have. The historicity of the Book of Mormon, The claims of Joseph Smith, would all be considered knowledge.
Many people (including Joseph Smith) have attempted to use there claimed psychic ability to unravel the mysteries of the universe. When they attempt to use God as a source of knowledge they seem to end up with differing scenarios.
Moses talked to God for 40 years. If God wanted to provide knowledge about everything he had ample opportunity. The fact that he didn't shows that he didn't want to. He doesn't really care what we believe.


Do you know for a fact that God did or did not speak with Joseph Smith? Do you know for a fact that God did not reveal the Book of Mormon to Joseph Smith? And so on...

These aren't things in which we are trying to gain further insight into them (seeking wisdom). We are trying to determine if they are true at all. Unless God tells you they are true, there is no reason to believe these claims.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gnat Straining and the Apologist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:36 am 
God

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:43 am
Posts: 8119
Albion wrote:
Within the premise of accepting God and his desire for our salvation anything that detracts from worship of that God would be the creation of the adversary. If the adversary is capable of creating falsehoods he is surely capable of giving false "inspiration" for mortals to accept those falsehoods . Even the devil can transform himself into an angel of light.


Shh, Tobin is not suppose to know this. :twisted:

_________________
42


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gnat Straining and the Apologist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:39 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:01 am
Posts: 6363
Location: Get ready to feel the THUNDER!
Themis wrote:
Albion wrote:
Within the premise of accepting God and his desire for our salvation anything that detracts from worship of that God would be the creation of the adversary. If the adversary is capable of creating falsehoods he is surely capable of giving false "inspiration" for mortals to accept those falsehoods . Even the devil can transform himself into an angel of light.


Shh, Tobin is not suppose to know this. :twisted:


Only if you believe the devil is more powerful than God which is ludicrous.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gnat Straining and the Apologist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:48 am 
God

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:43 am
Posts: 8119
Tobin wrote:
Only if you believe the devil is more powerful than God which is ludicrous.


How would you know that Satan wasn't the one who appeared before you? How do you know there not some other explanation you are not willing to look at.

_________________
42


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gnat Straining and the Apologist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:54 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:01 am
Posts: 6363
Location: Get ready to feel the THUNDER!
Themis wrote:
Tobin wrote:
Only if you believe the devil is more powerful than God which is ludicrous.


How would you know that Satan wasn't the one who appeared before you? How do you know there not some other explanation you are not willing to look at.


Again, as I've stated, you aren't thinking very clearly. If it was Satan, he just demonstrated that such beings exist and Satan encouraged me to seek after and worship God. As I said, your whole position is completely ludicrous.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gnat Straining and the Apologist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 8:59 am 
God

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:43 am
Posts: 8119
Tobin wrote:
Again, as I've stated, you aren't thinking very clearly. If it was Satan, he just demonstrated that such beings exist and Satan encouraged me to seek after and worship God. As I said, your whole position is completely ludicrous.


He may be getting you to worship a false God, and it still misses better explanations, especially in light of so much evidence proving Joseph made it up. To bad evidence means nothing to you.

_________________
42


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gnat Straining and the Apologist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:25 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:01 am
Posts: 6363
Location: Get ready to feel the THUNDER!
Themis wrote:
Tobin wrote:
Again, as I've stated, you aren't thinking very clearly. If it was Satan, he just demonstrated that such beings exist and Satan encouraged me to seek after and worship God. As I said, your whole position is completely ludicrous.


He may be getting you to worship a false God, and it still misses better explanations, especially in light of so much evidence proving Joseph made it up. To bad evidence means nothing to you.


Just more muddled thinking from you. You have fallen back into the ludicrous conception that Satan is more powerful than God yet again. Your assertion is that God is incapable of correcting us and leading us to the truth no matter what Satan does. And evidence is paramount to what I'm stating. There is no reason to believe in any of this stuff without it. You often try to characterize what I'm saying by stating it is actually the opposite of what I've just said. It isn't a very honest nor interesting approach to take when someone is trying to discuss something with you. I am certainly getting tired of your routine.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gnat Straining and the Apologist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:41 am 
CTR A
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:43 pm
Posts: 126
Location: Utah
Dcharle wrote:
Joseph...eloped with Emma....


Emma was 21 years old and unmarried. That would be like being 26-27 today, or even older. Isaac Hale was fiercely opposed to her marriage to Joseph Smith, but she was 21 and had made up her mind. What choice did they have but to "elope"? As she said herself, "Preferring [Joseph] to any other man I knew, I consented to marry him."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gnat Straining and the Apologist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:00 am 
God

Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:52 am
Posts: 7306
Tobin wrote:

Again, as I've stated, you aren't thinking very clearly. If it was Satan, he just demonstrated that such beings exist and Satan encouraged me to seek after and worship God. As I said, your whole position is completely ludicrous.


No, Satan got you to seek after and worship his version of God.
Think it through - Your views are wildly out if sync with Gods one true Church.

_________________
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gnat Straining and the Apologist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:11 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:01 am
Posts: 6363
Location: Get ready to feel the THUNDER!
Drifting wrote:
Tobin wrote:

Again, as I've stated, you aren't thinking very clearly. If it was Satan, he just demonstrated that such beings exist and Satan encouraged me to seek after and worship God. As I said, your whole position is completely ludicrous.


No, Satan got you to seek after and worship his version of God.
Think it through - Your views are wildly out if sync with Gods one true Church.


Uh huh. I think you are mistaking who is listening to Satan here.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gnat Straining and the Apologist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:15 am 
God

Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:52 am
Posts: 7306
Tobin wrote:
Drifting wrote:
No, Satan got you to seek after and worship his version of God.
Think it through - Your views are wildly out if sync with Gods one true Church.


Uh huh. I think you are mistaking who is listening to Satan here.


Would you count yourself as TBM?

Would anyone else consider Tobin a TBM?

_________________
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gnat Straining and the Apologist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:27 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:01 am
Posts: 6363
Location: Get ready to feel the THUNDER!
Drifting wrote:
Tobin wrote:
Uh huh. I think you are mistaking who is listening to Satan here.


Would you count yourself as TBM?

Would anyone else consider Tobin a TBM?

Funny. This is coming from someone standing against people seeking and speaking with God. I think we all know who your true master is Drifting.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gnat Straining and the Apologist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:29 am 
God

Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:52 am
Posts: 7306
Tobin wrote:
Uh huh. I think you are mistaking who is listening to Satan here.


Drifting wrote:
Would you count yourself as TBM?

Would anyone else consider Tobin a TBM?


Tobin wrote:
Funny. This is coming from someone standing against people seeking and speaking with God. I think we all know who your true master is Drifting.


Would you count yourself as TBM?

_________________
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gnat Straining and the Apologist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:35 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:01 am
Posts: 6363
Location: Get ready to feel the THUNDER!
Drifting wrote:
Would you count yourself as TBM?
When did Satan get such a powerful hold on you Drifting? One day you will have to stand before God and account for yourself. How will you answer when it is pointed out that you have stood against the truth? That you stood against the teaching that man should seek and speak with God. That you stood against the prophets who have also sought and spoke with God. That you stood against the scriptures where they write about God. And that you stood against God and his gospel.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gnat Straining and the Apologist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:37 am 
God

Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:52 am
Posts: 7306
Tobin wrote:
Drifting wrote:
Would you count yourself as TBM?
When did Satan get such a powerful hold on you Drifting? One day you will have to stand before God and account for yourself. How will you answer when it is pointed out that you have stood against the truth? That you stood against the teaching that man should seek and speak with God. That you stood against the prophets who have also sought and spoke with God. That you stood against the scriptures where they write about God. And that you stood against God and his gospel.


Would you count yourself as TBM?

Tobin, let me articulate what I believe to be the issue you need to face.

Your postings peg you as something quite removed from TBM status, in fact you have spoke derogatory about a number of aspects and doctrines and practices, including the Church leadership.

This is as a result, you say, of clear direction from God.

So, in short, you have removed yourself from firm and committed belief in Gods one true Church and you have done so because God Himself directed you.

Would God Himself lead you away from His one true Church?
Or is it more likely to be someone other than God?

_________________
“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


Last edited by Drifting on Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Gnat Straining and the Apologist
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:41 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2011 5:50 am
Posts: 4517
Location: Your mother's purse
Dcharle wrote:
I have had many conversations over the years with faithful believing Mormons and read several books from Mormon historians about the considerable intellectual and historical issues within Mormonism. The one consistent argument defenders of the faith ultimately entrench themselves into is that “men are not perfect” and that critics are merely “straining at gnats” when they criticize Mormon issues. I have read many complaints about the church that I agree simply do not reach the high bar needed to invalidate the church’s truth claims. So the question then becomes, what do we consider as a gnat?

Let me illustrate a few examples of what I would consider “gnat straining” arguments. President Monson’s unfortunate statement during the ribbon cutting at the city creek mall, “One, two, three—let’s go shopping!” When some rouge local leader acts outside the bounds of reason, uses poor judgment and offends someone. Or when early church leaders would publicly debate some of the finer points of doctrine such as, whether God progresses externally of not. While unfortunate, I would agree with the apologists, these types of small issues do not nullify the church’s truth claims. I would contend that when we criticize, what are clearly gnat sized human foibles that all men are subject too, we run the risk of sounding much like the hypocrites Jesus was condemning in Matthew 23:23-24.

Where the apologists get it very wrong is when they use the “straining at gnats” argument on very important, critical issues that strike at the very core of Mormonism. These issues are regarding the very foundations of the church, which speak to its credibility and clearly go well beyond gnat sized problems.

Let me illustrate just a few examples of problems that go well beyond gnat sized issues:

• The “stone-in-hat” method of translation: This clearly connects Joseph to his glass looking occultic practices and questions his credibility, especially when his 1826 arrest and examination for glass looking is also considered.
• Sexual Impropriety: From the very beginning Joseph had issues around this subject. He eloped with Emma, then soon after his marriage rumors began about inappropriate advances to Emma’s friends, then Fanny Alger, the teenage marriages, and polyandry. Again, these are serious issues that help build the picture of his credibility.
• The temple ceremony: Many Mormon’s believe that Freemasonry was passed down by Stone Masons from Solomon’s temple, hence why so much of the Mormon ceremony contains Masonry. We now know that Masonry originated in Europe sometime in the 1400’s and that it developed over time to what is was in Josephs Smiths day. When Joseph’s original temple ceremony is compared to masonry it is strikingly similar in many ways suggesting plagiarism.
• The Book of Abraham, according to apologist, is no longer a translation of the papyri (as we would use the word translation) but rather the papyri were just tools to spur inspiration.
• All the anachronisms and problems with the Book of Mormon that are far too many to list in this post.


In comparison, these, along with several other items, are clearly much greater than gnats, these are the 800lb hippopotamus, or water horse in the room!

the lack of an argument in your post is impressive.
1. It is apparent, and you admit, that your post is speculation. ("I consider" does not validate your assertions, but it is a nice loophole)
2. Your "stone-in-hat problem" - how does that condemn or absolve the Doctrine of the Church? Has not the church taught and maintained that the validity of the Book of Mormon is confirmed by the actual text and not by the means of translation? That is to say, the truth of the Book of Mormon is what confirms the Prophet, and not to say that the truth of the Prophet confirms the Book of Mormon.
3. Again, the credibility of the Prophet, the fallacy of men, etc..is not the measure of the Book of Mormon. The assertion is simple, the Book of Mormon and its associated doctrine would exist as truth and of a divine nature if one had never known any of the stories or biographies about the early church.

etc...

_________________
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires...seek discipline and find your liberty
I can tell if a person is judgmental just by looking at them
what is chaos to the fly is normal to the spider - morticia addams


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 59 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: LittleNipper and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Revival Theme By Brandon Designs By B.Design-Studio © 2007-2008 Brandon
Revival Theme Based off SubLite By Echo © 2007-2008 Echo
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group