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 Post subject: And of tenets thou shalt not talk
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:33 pm 
2nd Quorum of Seventy

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Doctrine And Covanent 19
31 And of tenets thou shalt not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea, even the Holy Ghost.


The Iceberg Principle

Public Relation message of Mormonism is designed to attract the general public by offering "everlasting happiness and fulfillment." Then the missionaries are sent to ask, "do you want to know more about the gospel of Jesus Christ?" But just as the iceberg is about 10% visible to the eye, so the Mormon missionary lessons represent only a small, visible part of Mormon doctrine.
The missionary stratagem of withholding information is exposed by quoting page 9 of the "stake mission handbook" published by the Mormons:
"The standard missionary discussions, when they are taught by the spirit, lead investigators carefully and systematically to a knowledge of these truths. Other portions of the gospel should generally be left to instruction and study after baptism. The Lord has instructed ,'And of tenets thou shall not talk, but thou shalt declare repentance and faith on the Savior, and remission of sins by baptism, and by fire, yea , even the Holy Ghost' ( Doctrine and Covenants 19:31 )
It is evident that Mormon authorities are commanding an inadequate representation of Mormonism by intentional concealment of their beliefs. this designed omission acts as a virtual fraud on the individual, manipulating then into the waters of baptism and membership into Mormonism. Mormon authorities feel justified in this deception because they believe they are "legal administrators" of the "only true church on the face of the earth" and, therefore, know what is best for all mankind.
After baptism, new members are scheduled into investigators' Sunday School class where the lessions are carefully presented. In this "Intial Indoctrination" phase they are taken through the "gospel Principle Manual." Mormon doctrine is explained in Christian-sounding words and phrases; differences in perspective are introduced gradually. When local LDS authorities decide they are ready,new members are moved into regular where they study "Doctrines in the Curriculum" from standard lesson manuals published at Mormon headquarters. Teachers are admonished not to deviate from lesson manuals or supplement with outside materials.
Within the first year most members will begin preparations to go to the temple. Now they are moved into a "temple preparation class" where emphasis is the doctrine of eternal progression and living the gospel law. Brief statements made about temple endowments include the same scanty information that is available to the public.. After a worthiness interview, Mormons go the temple to be sealed for time and all eternity.
Joseph Smith Jr. claimed that God reveals the "Deep and Hidden Mysteries of the Kingdom" in the temple ceremonies. In these rituals, patrons are bombarded with symbolism, rites, gestures, and a variety of stimuli which are entirely out of context with any religious experience they have heretofore known. They are assured that everything is uplifting and that their understanding of temple ritual will increase through participation and indirect proportion to their level of personal righteousness. Only the very inquisitive ever read the wide variety of historical data and revealing doctrinal statements written by earlier Mormon leaders. These "obscure Doctrines" are often dismissed with the statement, "The voice of the living prophet is more important to us than the voice of a dead prophet." Understanding varies from person to person depending on their level of personal study and exposure. This is true, even among those in leadership positions.
"end justifies the means" mentioned earlier psychology- an idea that all men must be led ' into the kingdom' gently, as they are ready. Mormons are taught to justify this practice with two scriptures: "line upon line, precept upon precept" (Isa. 28:10,18) and the concept of "milk to meat" ( 1 Peter 2:2; Heb 5:12) This interpretation is not scriptural. Jesus said there is nothing hidden (Matt. 10:26): but we gain understanding line upon line, as we are enabled by the Spirit to comprehend what has revealed.
The Lord said, "I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth... (Isa 45:19) Deep and hidden things need to be brought to the light of God's word. ( 1 Cor 4:5; Eph 5:8)

page 8 Understanding Mormonism Sandra and Conrad Sundholm

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 Post subject: Re: And of tenets thou shalt not talk
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:47 am 
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As a Mormon, accepting the gospel can be like trying to assemble an intricate jigsaw puzzle. An attractive picture with much attention to detail is glued to the surface. Because great numbers of small pieces are carved out of the whole, re-assembling them is difficult. Some of the pieces must be manipulated, others placed just-so, before the picture can begin to take form again. But piece or two pops out of position. It is so difficult that you let it lie and wait until to try and figure it out. It never occurs to you that, if you turn the puzzle over, there is another picture on the back - one you had not been aware of. If you decide to go through the agony of turning it all over section by section - sometimes piece by piece-you can now match colors and shapes. It is possible to use some of the pieces with beautiful picture; but it is alarming to find that you must use many of the pieces with dark, ugly. Symbolism. Strange unfamiliar images begin to emerge. It is devastating to find that the beautiful picture on the front was only a façade: in actuality, the puzzle only fits with both light and dark pieces. This is the over-whelming experence of a Mormon who discovers they have mixed truth with error and in so, have believed a lie.

appendix 1 Understanding Mormonism Sandra and Conrad Sundholm



http://sacredgrovesonline.org/videos/un ... _grace.htm

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 Post subject: Re: And of tenets thou shalt not talk
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:46 pm 
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Mittens wrote:

finally, the punch line...a link to your church with DVDs for sale!
got any coupons???

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 Post subject: Re: And of tenets thou shalt not talk
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:25 pm 
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LOL Yeah, I noticed that too subgenious. Mittens, supposedly a Christian, tearing down and attacking another faith. That is too funny. But, if that doesn't make you feel good about what Mittens believes, you can always buy the DVD. ROFL


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 Post subject: Re: And of tenets thou shalt not talk
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:07 pm 
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Pot and kettle come to mind or are you suggesting that Mormonism isn't "tearing down and attacking another faith"? Its whole premise is an attack on the Christian faith. Its an "abomination" remember and all those who profess it are "corrupt". Isn't this board about discussion? If you disagree with what has been posted, respond to it rather than resorting to the usual personal stuff. Derision is not a response.


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 Post subject: Re: And of tenets thou shalt not talk
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:51 pm 
2nd Quorum of Seventy

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Tobin wrote:
LOL Yeah, I noticed that too subgenious. Mittens, supposedly a Christian, tearing down and attacking another faith. That is too funny. But, if that doesn't make you feel good about what Mittens believes, you can always buy the DVD. ROFL



http://carm.org/does-mormonism-attack-other-religions

Joseph Smith said . . .


(Regarding Joseph Smith's alleged first vision where celestial personages appeared to him.) . . .) "My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right — and which I should join. I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, and the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight: that those professors were all corrupt . . ." (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 1, p. 5-6).


"What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world," (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, p. 270.)


(In questions directed to Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism. . .)
First -- "Do you believe the Bible?"
If we do, we are the only people under heaven that do, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do."
Third — "Will everybody be damned, but Mormons?"
Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings, page 119.)

Brigham Young said. . .


"But He did send His angel to this same obscure person, Joseph Smith jun., who afterwards became a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, and informed him that he should not join any of the religious sects of the day, for they were all wrong," (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, 1855, p. 171).

John Taylor said . . .


"We talk about Christianity, but it is a perfect pack of nonsense.... Myself and hundreds of the Elders around me have seen its pomp, parade, and glory; and what is it? It is a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol; it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, 1858, p. 167).


"Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 10, 1863, p. 127).

James Talmage said . . .


"A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ," (The Articles of Faith, Deseret Book Company, Salt Lake City, p. 182).

Bruce McConkie said . . .


"With the loss of the gospel, the nations of the earth went into a moral eclipse called the Dark Ages," (Mormon Doctrine, Bookcraft, Salt Lake City, Utah, p. 44).

Joseph Fielding Smith said . . .


"Again, following the death of his apostles, apostasy once more set in, and again the saving principles and ordinances of the gospel were changed to suit the conveniences and notions of the people. Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness," (Doctrines of Salvation, page 266).

The Book of Mormon says. . .


"And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth" (1 Nephi 14:10).


"And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose foundation is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence. . ." (1 Nephi. 14:17).

The Doctrine and Covenants says . . .


"Verily, verily, I say unto you, darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face" (Doctrine and Covenants, 112:23).

When the Mormon missionaries come to the door and do their "gospel" presentation, they mention an apostasy and the need for a prophet, their prophet, to restore the true Teachings of Jesus. Of course, these ‘restored' teachings are completely false.

Nevertheless, the Mormon church clearly condemns other religious systems. Those Mormons who complain about poor treatment should familiarize themselves with their teachers' words.
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 Post subject: Re: And of tenets thou shalt not talk
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:59 pm 
2nd Quorum of Seventy

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subgenius wrote:
Mittens wrote:

finally, the punch line...a link to your church with DVDs for sale!
got any coupons???



Isn't my Church and you can see DVD on line free, even though these ex-Mormons are part of the Holy Priesthood of believers. Where I work we rent to Mormon choir who charge 12.00p er ticket. this that OK ?

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 Post subject: Re: And of tenets thou shalt not talk
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:04 pm 
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Mittens wrote:
Tobin wrote:
LOL Yeah, I noticed that too subgenious. Mittens, supposedly a Christian, tearing down and attacking another faith. That is too funny. But, if that doesn't make you feel good about what Mittens believes, you can always buy the DVD. ROFL

...
Nice try, but those comments weren't made to other people of other faiths. They were made to Mormons. You certainly don't have to read them and I don't remember any prophets coming on religious forums attackings another person's religion?!? You seem to go out of your way to do it.


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 Post subject: Re: And of tenets thou shalt not talk
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:08 pm 
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Echo. Nice try but playing the poor persecuted Mormon card just doesn't wash. Smith's supposed revelation putting words into the mouth of God in a tirade against orthodox Christianity proclaiming it an abomination and all those who believe in it corrupt was published to the world and was, and perhaps is even now, a part of Mormon presentations to those of other faiths they want to convert. I do not in any way question the sincerity of Mormons in their belief, I reject it, but acknowledge that most Mormons I have met sincerely believe what they espouse. To bad you don't seem to be able to accept that Christians can operate out of a sincere regard for the salvation of those they believe lost.


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 Post subject: Re: And of tenets thou shalt not talk
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:57 pm 
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Albion wrote:
Echo. Nice try but playing the poor persecuted Mormon card just doesn't wash. Smith's supposed revelation putting words into the mouth of God in a tirade against orthodox Christianity proclaiming it an abomination and all those who believe in it corrupt was published to the world and was, and perhaps is even now, a part of Mormon presentations to those of other faiths they want to convert. I do not in any way question the sincerity of Mormons in their belief, I reject it, but acknowledge that most Mormons I have met sincerely believe what they espouse. To bad you don't seem to be able to accept that Christians can operate out of a sincere regard for the salvation of those they believe lost.

I'm not playing the poor persecuted Mormon card. If you wish to insult Mormons and their beliefs, you are welcome to do so. It isn't Christian behavior in my opinion and you aren't going to get anywhere with a Mormon. It doesn't impress in the least and just demonstrates you being hypocritical.


Last edited by Tobin on Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: And of tenets thou shalt not talk
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:04 pm 
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Albion wrote:
Pot and kettle come to mind or are you suggesting that Mormonism isn't "tearing down and attacking another faith"? Its whole premise is an attack on the Christian faith. Its an "abomination" remember and all those who profess it are "corrupt". Isn't this board about discussion? If you disagree with what has been posted, respond to it rather than resorting to the usual personal stuff. Derision is not a response.


That's a ridiculous position. You might as well say all other religions are an attack on Chrisitianity. Do you go about attacking Islam on Islamic forums and Jews on Jewish forums?


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 Post subject: Re: And of tenets thou shalt not talk
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:45 pm 
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You still refuse to accept that Mormonism attacks Christianity and only see criticism of your particular belief system as "tearing down". Now that really is hypocrisy.


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 Post subject: Re: And of tenets thou shalt not talk
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:52 pm 
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Albion wrote:
You still refuse to accept that Mormonism attacks Christianity and only see criticism of your particular belief system as "tearing down". Now that really is hypocrisy.


As I've said below, the fact people are Mormon or that Mormonism exists is not an attack on Christianity. No more than Islam, Hinduism, Judaism and so on are not attacks on Chrisitianity either. You can't expect people who believe in Islam to embrace Christianity in their Mosques and the same could be said of those that believe in other religions including Mormons.

If you want to convince Mormons that they are wrong, I certainly wouldn't attack them and what they believe. But that is up to you. I find it despicable behavior, especially coming from someone that claims they are Christian.


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 Post subject: Re: And of tenets thou shalt not talk
PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:59 pm 
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Albion wrote:
Pot and kettle come to mind or are you suggesting that Mormonism isn't "tearing down and attacking another faith"?


Okay, list one video, that stands as a directed attack or diatribe against a specific religious group, produce by the LDS Church.

Quote:
Derision is not a response.


Seems to be a universal on all message boards.

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 Post subject: Re: And of tenets thou shalt not talk
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:48 am 
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Tobin wrote:
Albion wrote:
You still refuse to accept that Mormonism attacks Christianity and only see criticism of your particular belief system as "tearing down". Now that really is hypocrisy.


As I've said below, the fact people are Mormon or that Mormonism exists is not an attack on Christianity. No more than Islam, Hinduism, Judaism and so on are not attacks on Chrisitianity either. You can't expect people who believe in Islam to embrace Christianity in their Mosques and the same could be said of those that believe in other religions including Mormons.

If you want to convince Mormons that they are wrong, I certainly wouldn't attack them and what they believe. But that is up to you. I find it despicable behavior, especially coming from someone that claims they are Christian.

However, they claim to be "Christian." Yet Mormons do not really believe Christ is anything but another created being much like satan. That is an attack is it not? Mormonism attacks the Biblical definition of Diety --- saying we are all gods --- God didn't create spirits but begat them according to Mormonism. Is that not so? Why do you feel so threatened by what ex-mormons say? Clearly, if what you believe is totally correct --- then clearly you have nothing to fear. However, I believe you are perhaps uncertain of your form of "salvation"..?


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 Post subject: Re: And of tenets thou shalt not talk
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:22 am 
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LittleNipper wrote:
However, they claim to be "Christian."

So do many other groups, but I don't see you attacking them?
LittleNipper wrote:
Yet Mormons do not really believe Christ is anything but another created being much like satan. That is an attack is it not?

You are confused. Christians believe God created Satan and that Jesus Christ is the only begotten of the Father, just as Mormon do. The only person attacking is you.
LittleNipper wrote:
Mormonism attacks the Biblical definition of Diety --- saying we are all gods --- God didn't create spirits but begat them according to Mormonism. Is that not so?

Again, you are confused. The only difference between you and a Mormon is a Mormon believes nothing can be created out of nothing, but instead is formed from existing material. God created our spirits but when Mormons state that, they mean he formed their spirits. And the only begotten of the Father is Jesus Christ. You should believe that as well.
LittleNipper wrote:
Why do you feel so threatened by what ex-mormons say? Clearly, if what you believe is totally correct --- then clearly you have nothing to fear.
I have nothing to feel threatened by ex-mormons from. I've seen God and know that he lives, how about you? I feel at complete ease discussing God, the scriptures, and the gospel.
LittleNipper wrote:
However, I believe you are perhaps uncertain of your form of "salvation"..?
I am saved by the grace of Jesus Christ. You should seek God and speak with him and do what he says. That is the only salvation possible.


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 Post subject: Re: And of tenets thou shalt not talk
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:05 pm 
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In Matthew 23, known as the Sermon of Woes, Jesus modeled a very firm attack on the error and false witness of his day, bearding the lion in its den. The Great Commission is the charge given to Christ's church as an imperative for believers who are called to contend for the gospel. Wherever the message of Jesus has been proclaimed it has been met with resistance. Are you suggesting that Christians, who are concerned that Mormons are in gross error that threatens their salvation, should just leave Mormons alone to go blindly down the path or error to their destruction or do you claim that only Mormons act out of sincerity. I have acknowledged that I accept the sincerity of Mormons......apparently you make no allowance for that in Christians. I see no personal attacks in any of the posts that call Mormonism into question...the focus is the Mormon Church and its theology....yet personal insult does appear to be included in the currency of most of the Mormon apologists here. In my short time here I have been called everything from "an empty suit" to dumb, stupid, and ignorant but I'' take all that if I can crack even one small foundation of the false gospel that is Mormonism with the real truth of God's word. For that I make no apologies no matter you think I am wasting my time.


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 Post subject: Re: And of tenets thou shalt not talk
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:43 pm 
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Albion wrote:
In Matthew 23, known as the Sermon of Woes, Jesus modeled a very firm attack on the error and false witness of his day, bearding the lion in its den. The Great Commission is the charge given to Christ's church as an imperative for believers who are called to contend for the gospel. Wherever the message of Jesus has been proclaimed it has been met with resistance. Are you suggesting that Christians, who are concerned that Mormons are in gross error that threatens their salvation, should just leave Mormons alone to go blindly down the path or error to their destruction or do you claim that only Mormons act out of sincerity. I have acknowledged that I accept the sincerity of Mormons......apparently you make no allowance for that in Christians. I see no personal attacks in any of the posts that call Mormonism into question...the focus is the Mormon Church and its theology....yet personal insult does appear to be included in the currency of most of the Mormon apologists here. In my short time here I have been called everything from "an empty suit" to dumb, stupid, and ignorant but I'' take all that if I can crack even one small foundation of the false gospel that is Mormonism with the real truth of God's word. For that I make no apologies no matter you think I am wasting my time.


Stating what you believe to be the truth and pointing out what you believe to be errors and giving good reasons for that is a whole different world from belittling and attacking anothers beliefs and faith. I believe in God and do not appreciate being called names or having a very sacred belief like that attacked. If you wish to make a good point or fairly argue something, I'm willing to listen. However, when you wander down the path of attacking things I hold dear, I'll dismiss you and ignore you - as would any reasonable person. You have to be careful not to do things like that and that is my point in response to Mittens.


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 Post subject: Re: And of tenets thou shalt not talk
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:27 pm 
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Albion wrote:
Are you suggesting that Christians, who are concerned that Mormons are in gross error that threatens their salvation, should just leave Mormons alone to go blindly down the path or error to their destruction or do you claim that only Mormons act out of sincerity.


Not when there is a buck to be made in an anti-mormon ministry. Forget that the irreducible byproduct of Jesus desire that we love others also implies that we are to respect them. Go with the principle that you can carve a niche while indulging your desire to desecrate the religious beliefs of others.

Evangelizing by dagger is never appealing.

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 Post subject: Re: And of tenets thou shalt not talk
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:02 pm 
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Evangelic message
Matthew 7
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Mormon message

Matthew 7
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not Baptised for the dead in Your name, Abstained from Coffee in Your name, and done many wonders like going on mission for two years in Your name?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Sounds like the most important thing Jesus taught was to have a relationship with Jesus, not of works

Bruce McConkie said the opposite


Our Relationship with the Lord
BRUCE R. MCCONKIE
Now, it is no secret that many false and vain and foolish things are being taught in the sectarian world and even among us about our need to gain a special relationship with the Lord Jesus. I shall summarize the true doctrine in this field and invite erring teachers and beguiled students to repent and believe the accepted gospel verities as I shall set them forth.
We worship the Father and him only and no one else.

We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense--the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator.
Christ worked out his own salvation by worshiping the Father.

http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6843

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 Post subject: Re: And of tenets thou shalt not talk
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:27 pm 
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Mittens wrote:
Evangelic message
Matthew 7
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Mormon message

Matthew 7
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not Baptised for the dead in Your name, Abstained from Coffee in Your name, and done many wonders like going on mission for two years in Your name?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Sounds like the most important thing Jesus taught was to have a relationship with Jesus, not of works

Bruce McConkie said the opposite


Our Relationship with the Lord
BRUCE R. MCCONKIE
Now, it is no secret that many false and vain and foolish things are being taught in the sectarian world and even among us about our need to gain a special relationship with the Lord Jesus. I shall summarize the true doctrine in this field and invite erring teachers and beguiled students to repent and believe the accepted gospel verities as I shall set them forth.
We worship the Father and him only and no one else.

We do not worship the Son, and we do not worship the Holy Ghost. I know perfectly well what the scriptures say about worshipping Christ and Jehovah, but they are speaking in an entirely different sense--the sense of standing in awe and being reverentially grateful to him who has redeemed us. Worship in the true and saving sense is reserved for God the first, the Creator.
Christ worked out his own salvation by worshiping the Father.

http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6843


So, you justify your attacks on Mormons because you disagree with BRM? Guess what? I disagree with BRM on many things too.


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