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 Post subject: Re: Truth and Burning Bosoms
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:58 pm 
God

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I take God at His Word. Burning in the Bosom and fEeLiNgS :cry: can also be gas related. I like the idea of being saved, even when I don't always feel like I am.


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 Post subject: Re: Truth and Burning Bosoms
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:19 pm 
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LittleNipper wrote:
I take God at His Word. Burning in the Bosom and fEeLiNgS :cry: can also be gas related. I like the idea of being saved, even when I don't always feel like I am.


How do you know it's God's word?

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 Post subject: Re: Truth and Burning Bosoms
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:25 pm 
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Themis wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
I take God at His Word. Burning in the Bosom and fEeLiNgS :cry: can also be gas related. I like the idea of being saved, even when I don't always feel like I am.


How do you know it's God's word?

What makes you think it isn't?


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 Post subject: Re: Truth and Burning Bosoms
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 3:47 pm 
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LittleNipper wrote:
Quote:
How do you know it's God's word?

What makes you think it isn't?


I'm going with - Because God didn't write it.

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 Post subject: Re: Truth and Burning Bosoms
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:23 pm 
God

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Drifting wrote:
Quote:
How do you know it's God's word?

What makes you think it isn't?

I'm going with - Because God didn't write it.

Look, I'm a CHRISTIAN. I do not believe the Book of Mormon was writen by God. However, I certainly believe God had a hand in writing the Bible.


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 Post subject: Re: Truth and Burning Bosoms
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:27 pm 
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LittleNipper wrote:
Look, I'm a CHRISTIAN. I do not believe the Book of Mormon was writen by God. However, I certainly believe God had a hand in writing the Bible.


Mormons are Christians...apparently...

Anyhow, just because you believe something, even if you believe it lots and lots, doesn't just make it so.

Do you think the Bible is to be taken 100% literally, 100% metaphorically, or do you pick and choose?

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 Post subject: Re: Truth and Burning Bosoms
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:50 pm 
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LittleNipper wrote:
What makes you think it isn't?


I am asking how you know it is God's word?

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 Post subject: Re: Truth and Burning Bosoms
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:58 pm 
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keithb wrote:
Tobin wrote:
The whole "feelings" thing is garbage. Go have a real experience with God or get out. Indigestion is a terrible way to determine the truth of anything but food poisoning.


And your criteria for a "real experience" with God would be ... what?

There was a lady I met on my Mormon mission who claimed that the voices of angels and demons spoke to her from her television. In your estimation, did she have a "real experience" with God? How would a person tell the difference between a real and imaginary experience?

Please, enlighten us.


VERY easy, read John W. Loftus, Dan Barker, Michael Shermer, Richard Dawkins. The theory that special feelings occur is accurate. The leap that it is God is unfounded. The brain can and does give us far more than we have supposed. Cognative science has demonstrated over the last 20 years that the brain is far more powerful than we have given it credit. It is religion which says those feelings are from God. The problem with that is ALL the religions claim the same thing, but apparently God isn't overly concerned with teaching an objective truth the same to all people, but instead is more than satisfied to leave us confused, muddled and dazed as we get worked up over someone else's "wrong" theology to the point that blood is spilt, and, as ever, in the name of God no less. Feelings do not teach us truth, the brain does.

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 Post subject: Re: Truth and Burning Bosoms
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:59 pm 
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Drifting wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
Look, I'm a CHRISTIAN. I do not believe the Book of Mormon was writen by God. However, I certainly believe God had a hand in writing the Bible.


Mormons are Christians...apparently...

Anyhow, just because you believe something, even if you believe it lots and lots, doesn't just make it so.

Do you think the Bible is to be taken 100% literally, 100% metaphorically, or do you pick and choose?


The Bible is entirely man made. God in the Bible never acts or thinks like an Almighty God, let alone one who is omniscient, omnipresent, omnibenevolent. But he sure acts human, all too human.

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 Post subject: Re: Truth and Burning Bosoms
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:47 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
sleepyhead wrote:
Is there something you actually disagree with that I wrote so that I can reply to that item instead of the entire thread?


Allow me to be more specific about your post prior:

sleepyhead wrote:
Instinct was never designed to be used for information about past civilizations or to unlock the mysteries of the universe. Those who use it for that purpose are setting themselves up for disappointment.


This would be getting back to the original topic. Why do you disagree with the above? What type of information can an individual obtain by the burning bosom, and why in your opinion should learning about past civilizations be one of them?

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 Post subject: Re: Truth and Burning Bosoms
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:41 pm 
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sleepyhead wrote:
Is there something you actually disagree with that I wrote so that I can reply to that item instead of the entire thread?

Allow me to be more specific about your post prior:

sleepyhead wrote:
Instinct was never designed to be used for information about past civilizations or to unlock the mysteries of the universe. Those who use it for that purpose are setting themselves up for disappointment.

This would be getting back to the original topic. Why do you disagree with the above? What type of information can an individual obtain by the burning bosom, and why in your opinion should learning about past civilizations be one of them?


If I may venture to interrupt, the burning in the bosom can give you no information. Information comes through the mind, our brains. It is the brain which gives the sensation, not the sensation that informs the brain...... just my take on it. There's a lot of science on this....

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Science is not reliable because it provides certainty. It is reliable because it provides us with the best answers we have at present. And it is reliability we need, not certainty. The most credible answers are the ones given by science, because science is the search for the most credible answers available, not for answers pretending to certainty. Carlo Rovelli


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 Post subject: Re: Truth and Burning Bosoms
PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:19 pm 
God

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Philo Sofee wrote:

If I may venture to interrupt, the burning in the bosom can give you no information. Information comes through the mind, our brains. It is the brain which gives the sensation, not the sensation that informs the brain...... just my take on it. There's a lot of science on this....


Interestingly Church doctrine states that one is to study things out in ones mind, reach a conclusion and then seek confirmation from the Holy Ghost.

In other words, the burning in the bosom is a confirmation of conclusions you had already drawn and believed.

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Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: Truth and Burning Bosoms
PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2012 8:10 am 
God

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Themis wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
What makes you think it isn't?


I am asking how you know it is God's word?


I always love this question. It makes people like nipper run away because they really don't know.

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 Post subject: Re: Truth and Burning Bosoms
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:51 am 
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Drifting wrote:
Philo Sofee wrote:

If I may venture to interrupt, the burning in the bosom can give you no information. Information comes through the mind, our brains. It is the brain which gives the sensation, not the sensation that informs the brain...... just my take on it. There's a lot of science on this....


Interestingly Church doctrine states that one is to study things out in ones mind, reach a conclusion and then seek confirmation from the Holy Ghost.

In other words, the burning in the bosom is a confirmation of conclusions you had already drawn and believed.



+1

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 Post subject: Re: Truth and Burning Bosoms
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:45 am 
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Philo,

You have absolutely no proof of your physicalist-reductionist stance re: minds vs. brains. Not only that but you are grossly misrepresenting the current state of knowledge in cognitive science. There is more and more evidence that physicalist reductionism simply does not account for all the available data, and that "purely" mental processes are capable of influencing/determining "purely" physical ones--i.e. that what you think has a measurable, demonstrable effect on your physiological brain state. See e.g. the works of Antonio Damasio or any of the (peer-reviewed) research at the Mind and Life Institute.

That said I agree with you that the "promise of Moroni" is a heap of bologna. But it is important to distinguish between contemplative practices/mental states which are bogus, like the "burning in the bosom," and contemplative practices/mental states which are not.


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 Post subject: Re: Truth and Burning Bosoms
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:17 am 
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subgenius wrote:
If you have a belief that these feelings are internally generated then surely you have the ability to generate them at your will, correct? Even if you can not summon them forth while sitting in a chair, surely you can bring together the circumstances that would precisely replicate that "feeling", correct?...that is evidence i would like to see.


i can't quite tell -- are you doubting that these feelings can be generated at will?

for myself, when i read the OP it reminded me of a (secular) poem which once gave me that feeling i was taught to call "the spirit." before proceeding any further downthread, i looked up the poem and read it again and sure enough i get the same exact sensation. but this isn't at all surprising, is it?


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 Post subject: Re: Truth and Burning Bosoms
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 7:17 am 
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Philo Sofee wrote:

If I may venture to interrupt, the burning in the bosom can give you no information. Information comes through the mind, our brains. It is the brain which gives the sensation, not the sensation that informs the brain...... just my take on it. There's a lot of science on this....


Hello Philo,

I'm not saying the above is right or wrong and I don't want to cause thread drift, but I have a personal interest in instinct. Using the penquin as an example, does science claim that the urge to begin mating at a certain age, along with performing all of the steps involved in the process of giving birth, all originate from the brain?

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 Post subject: Re: Truth and Burning Bosoms
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:38 pm 
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Samantabhadra wrote:
Philo,

You have absolutely no proof of your physicalist-reductionist stance re: minds vs. brains. Not only that but you are grossly misrepresenting the current state of knowledge in cognitive science. There is more and more evidence that physicalist reductionism simply does not account for all the available data, and that "purely" mental processes are capable of influencing/determining "purely" physical ones--i.e. that what you think has a measurable, demonstrable effect on your physiological brain state. See e.g. the works of Antonio Damasio or any of the (peer-reviewed) research at the Mind and Life Institute.

That said I agree with you that the "promise of Moroni" is a heap of bologna. But it is important to distinguish between contemplative practices/mental states which are bogus, like the "burning in the bosom," and contemplative practices/mental states which are not.


Mind if I ask? are you a physicalist or a dualist as far as the argument about the soul go?

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 Post subject: Re: Truth and Burning Bosoms
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:26 pm 
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Themis wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
What makes you think it isn't?


I am asking how you know it is God's word?

how do you know you love your spouse? your children? your parents?....and the obvious one...the sound of your own voice?

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 Post subject: Re: Truth and Burning Bosoms
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 3:07 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
how do you know you love your spouse? your children? your parents?....and the obvious one...the sound of your own voice?


The question was asked to nipper who wants to say things as though he knows them but can't say how or why. I have been over this with you before.

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 Post subject: Re: Truth and Burning Bosoms
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:00 am 
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aussieguy55 wrote:
Mind if I ask? are you a physicalist or a dualist as far as the argument about the soul go?


Neither. I maintain that a sentient being is a composite continuum, made from inseparable psycho-physical "bundles" of physical form, consciousness, (ap)perception, feeling-tone, and mental conditioning-formations. The point is just that both physicalism and Cartesian dualism are wrong, because they posit mind and body as two separate entities rather than as complementary elements of the mind-body system. Physicalism draws the same rigid divide, but it asserts that only one of the terms is real. I dispute the division.


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