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 Post subject: demagoguery and hyperbole in Mormonism
PostPosted: Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:59 am 
God

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:07 pm
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Location: Vancouver Washington
In Marvelous Work and A Wonder, Le Grand Richards Page 18 under the heading John’s Testimony of the Personality of God Says “This accords also with the report of John’s baptism of Jesus: 16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. 17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” Here each of the three members of the Godhead are distinctly and separately mentioned; (1) Jesus coming up out of the water; (2) the Holy Ghost descending like a dove; (3) the voice of the Father from heaven expressing his love and approval of his beloved Son. How could one possibly believe these three to be one person without body or form?

President Gordon B. Hinckley explained why he also could not believe in the Trinity: The world wrestles with the question of who God is, and in what form He is found. Some say that the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are one. I wonder how they ever arrive at that. How could Jesus have prayed to Himself when he uttered the Lord’s Prayer? How could He have net with Himself when He was on the Mount of Transfiguration? No. He is a separate being. God, our Father, is one. Jesus Christ is two. The Holy Ghost is three. And these three are united in purpose and in working together to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.’ ONE GOD The above comments are clearly antithetical

James Talmage states: “This [the Trinity] cannot rationally be construed to mean that the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost are one in substance and person” (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.40)

1. Hugh B. Brown, The Abundant Life, p.313 Surely this was not ventriloquism where Christ was speaking to and of himself. It was the Father introducing His Son. In this case, the members of the Holy Trinity manifested themselves, each in a different way, and each was distinct from the others. A similar event occurred on the Mount of Transfiguration when members of the Godhead were distinguished in the presence of Moses and Elias, and Peter, James, and John.

What’s interesting about all these statements is that Le Grand Richards, Gordon B. Hinckley, James Talmage, Hugh B. Brown and other leaders like Robert Hales and Jeffrey R Holland lie about is the Orthodox view of the Godhead and pin modalism to Orthodox Christianity and our belief of the Trinity.

When Christians teach the Godhead is ONE and persons is three separate persons. Jesus prayed to a separate person, God the Father .

Homoousios -God- Godhead- Substance- Essence- Being –Nature [ all Synonyms ]

One being. Three persons. In other words, one "what" and three "who"s. There is one being, God. There are three persons: God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. The distinction is between being and person. One being, three persons. One what, three who's.

first used by Theophilus (A.D. 168 A.D. - 183 A.D.), or from the Lat. trinitas, first used by Tertullian (A.D. 220 A.D.), to express this doctrine. The propositions involved in the doctrine are these: 1. That God is one, and that there is but one God (Deut 6:4; 1 Kings 8:60; Isa 44:6; Mark 12:29,32; John 10:30). 2. That the Father is a distinct divine Person (hypostasis, subsistentia, persona, suppositum intellectuale), distinct from the Son and the Holy Spirit. 3. That Jesus Christ was truly God, and yet was a Person distinct from the Father and the Holy Spirit. 4. That the Holy Spirit is also a distinct divine Person.

(from Easton's Bible Dictionary, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

E. Calvin Beisner
God in Three Persons

The Christian Church throughout history has found in order to remain faithful to the teachings of the New Testament regarding the person and work of Christ, it had to affirm at least the following doctrines:

The doctrine of the Trinity----that in the nature of the One True God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, each fully God, Coequal and Coeternal

When we have said these three things, then—that there is but one God, that the Father and the Son and the Spirit is each a distinct person—we have enunciated the doctrine of the Trinity in its completeness.

We may condense this into a somewhat shorter statement, one which is more precise: In the nature of the God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit ( or substance ) of the one true God, there are three distinct persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit p 24

“The Nicene Creed, then, with centuries of theological discussion and controversy behind it, still teaches of the Trinity as the New Testament does: that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, while distinct from each other personally, are the same God” p 153

Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary
1. (n.) The union of three persons (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons as to individuality.

“Within the one Being that is God, there exists eternally three coequal and co-eternal persons, namely, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.”
(White, James R. “The Forgotten Trinity” (p. 26). Baker Publishing Group. Kindle Edition)

"Within the nature of The ONE GOD are 3 separate and distinct persons" DR Walter Martin Kingdom of the Cults

https://i.imgur.com/osAmiy2.jpg

https://youtu.be/u0JpwOSKRC0

If you notice the Traditional Christian Godhead is ONE GODHEAD represented by three separate persons

while the Mormon godhead is 3 persons represented by three gods .

"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods," (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370)

The Godhead consists of the three distinct personages and three gods.. The Father Son and Holy Spirit. The Father and Son have bodies of flesh and bones, while the Holy Spirit is a personage of spirit. Robert Millet A Different Jesus page 198

The trinity is three separate Gods: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. "That these three are separate individuals, physically distinct from each other, is demonstrated by the accepted records of divine dealings with man," (Articles of Faith, by James Talmage, p. 35).

Notice the Book of Mormon agrees with the tradition Christian view of ONE GOD in the GODHEAD

2 Nephi 31:
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold,[b] this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God,[/b] without end. Amen.

Alma 11:
44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.

Mormon 7:
7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

The Testimony of Three Witnesses
And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

Book of Moses 1:
6 And I have a work for thee, Moses, my son; and thou art in the similitude of mine Only Begotten; and mine Only Begotten is and shall be the Savior, for he is full of grace and truth; but there is no God beside me, and all things are present with me, for I know them all.

James Talmage, a Mormon Apostle, said Psalm 82:6 is not about becoming gods.

 "In Psalm 82:6, judges invested by divine appointment are called 'gods.'  To this scripture the Savior referred in His reply to the Jews in Solomon's Porch.  Judges so authorized officiated as the representatives of God and are honored by the exalted title 'gods.'  Compare the similar appellation applied to Moses (Exo. 4:16; 7:1).  Jesus Christ possessed divine authorization, not through the word of God transmitted to Him by man, but as an inherent attribute.  The inconsistency of calling human judges 'gods,' and of ascribing blasphemy to the Christ who called Himself the Son of God, would have been apparent to the Jews but for their sin-darkened minds."  (James Talmage, Jesus the Christ, p. 501). -- Mormons often quote Psalm 82:6 which Jesus quoted in John 10:30-34 to show that we can become gods. 
 Rather than them believing the truth from a Christian, perhaps they will believe it from their own apostle.

judge must act with impartiality and true justice, because even judges must stand someday before the Judge. Verses 6 and 7 warn human magistrates that they, too, must be judged: “I said, `You are gods; you are all sons of the Most High.' But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler.”

This passage is saying that God has appointed men to positions of authority in which they are considered as gods among the people. They are to remember that, even though they are representing God in this world, they are mortal and must eventually give an account to God for how they used that authority.

_________________
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve


Last edited by Mittens on Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: demagoguery and hyperbole in Mormonism
PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:22 pm 
God

Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2012 6:07 pm
Posts: 1038
Location: Vancouver Washington
The Dilemma of Revelation 1:6

By Aaron Shafovaloff

The King James Version
The KJV of Revelation 1:6 reads,
“And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.”
The Joseph Smith Translation Gets It Right

Consider the description in Gospel Principles (2009) of the Joseph Smith Translation (JST):

“Through the Prophet Joseph Smith, the Lord has expanded our understanding of some passages in the Bible. The Lord inspired the Prophet Joseph to restore truths to the Bible text that had been lost or changed since the original words were written. These inspired corrections are called the Joseph Smith Translation of the Bible. In the Latter-day Saint edition of the King James Version of the Bible, selected passages from the Joseph Smith Translation are found on pages 797–813 and in many footnotes.”

With that in mind, observe that Joseph Smith corrects Revelation 1:6 in the JST to “God, his Father.” Ironically, he got it essentially right, and no wonder, since he seems then (in the early 1830’s) to have been on a push to make sure the Bible was more clearly monotheistic. Contrast the KJV and KJV-based translations with all modern translations. The Greek supports the modern translations, which render it essentially, “priests to his God and Father.” In what is otherwise a disastrous translation, Revelation 1:6 could be a “hit” in the JST worth celebrating. The JST needs all the positive hits it can get, since Smith inserted a prophecy about himself at the end of Genesis, and doesn’t have a good reputation for corroborating with manuscript evidence.

Joseph Smith’s “Sermon in the Grove” Overturns the JST
Later in his dramatic “Sermon in the Grove” (a follow-up to the King Follett Discourse), Joseph Smith bases his radical argument on the KJV of Revelation 1:6, “God and his Father.” Smith even says of the KJV of Revelation 1:6, “It is altogether correct in the translation.” He goes on to argue for a “plurality of Gods” and for the ancestry of God the Father:

“If Abraham reasoned thus — If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it.”

The Dilemma

Mormons are left with two options:
1: Choose the KJV of Revelation 1:6, endorsed by Joseph Smith in the “Sermon in the Grove”, which calls into question the Joseph Smith Translation.
2: Choose the Joseph Smith Translation of Revelation 1:6, which calls into question Joseph Smith’s “Sermon in the Grove.”
Of course, a third option is simply to decide that Joseph Smith wasn’t a reliable translator.

http://www.mrm.org/revelation-1-6

Joseph Smith: Many men say there is one God; the Father, the
son and the Holy Ghost are only one God! I say this is a strange God
anyhow—three in one, and one in three! It is a curious organization. . . . All
are to be crammed into one God, according to sectarianism. It would make the
biggest God in all the world. He would be a wonderfully big God—he would be a
giant or a monster.“
(History of the Church * Volume 6 Page 476 * 1844

Joseph Smith said the Trinity is three gods.
"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods," (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370)

Joseph Smith must have forgot his pre-1836 comments

2 Nephi 31:
21 And now, behold, my beloved brethren, this is the way; and there is none other way nor name given under heaven whereby man can be saved in the kingdom of God. And now, behold, this is the doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen.

Alma 11:
44 Now, this restoration shall come to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, both the wicked and the righteous; and even there shall not so much as a hair of their heads be lost; but everything shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.


Mormon 7:
7 And he hath brought to pass the redemption of the world, whereby he that is found guiltless before him at the judgment day hath it given unto him to dwell in the presence of God in his kingdom, to sing ceaseless praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end.

The Testimony of Three Witnesses
And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen.
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris

1 Nephi 13: 41 And they must come according to the words which shall be established by the mouth of the Lamb; and the words of the Lamb shall be made known in the records of thy seed, as well as in the records of the twelve apostles of the Lamb; wherefore they both shall be established in one; for there is one God and one Shepherd over all the earth.

Doctrine and Covenants 20 :
28 Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God, infinite and eternal, without end. Amen.

_________________
Justice = Getting what you deserve
Mercy = Not getting what you deserve
Grace = Getting what you can never deserve


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