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 Post subject: A question of motivation
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 9:00 pm 
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What do you think really motivates people to do the "right" thing?

I got the chance to attend sacrament meeting and listen to some of the talks on gratitude. I could see a feeling of gratitude being a natural response when things are going well. I'm glad the speakers pointed out that we're expected to be grateful when things are not going well. My question is why do you think chapel Mormons force themselves to feel grateful during bad times? Having tried these things I certainly can't say it made me happier in the moment. The only way I've been able to make myself feel happier about anything that's expected of me in Mormonism is to convince myself that I'll be blessed or rewarded for these sacrifices in the next life. Anyone can see we're not rewarded for them now. But I could never say that out loud in real life even if it were true because it can be criticized as being selfish.

My question is what goes through the chapel Mormons mind when they make themselves do unpleasant things like pay tithing, fast, spend most of their nonworking time in some sort of Church service. If they don't do it because they believe they'll be blessed for it, do they do it because they'll feel guilty if they don't? Are they really happier in the moment of making these sacrifices or are they happier because of how their choices will effect them in eternity but can't admit this is why because they'll be viewed as selfish?

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 Post subject: Re: A question of motivation
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 8:34 am 
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Senator Waters

Its all about perspective and motive. Generally when somebody is going through tough times its extremely difficult to be grateful. Trials can make or break a person. Society loves the person who has gone through tough times and comes out a better person.

Believe it or not people get blessings when they live the commandments and have good motives. But there are some warnings for motivations as to why people may try attempt to live different commandments.

6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing.

7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness.

8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God.

9 And likewise also is it counted evil unto a man, if he shall pray and not with real intent of heart; yea, and it profiteth him nothing, for God receiveth none such.


1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.


Last edited by bomgeography on Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A question of motivation
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 2:05 pm 
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Quote:
Believe it or not people get blessings when they live the commandments and have good motives.


Are blessings in eternity a good motive in your opinion?

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 Post subject: Re: A question of motivation
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 9:52 pm 
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Maxine Waters wrote:
Quote:
Believe it or not people get blessings when they live the commandments and have good motives.


Are blessings in eternity a good motive in your opinion?


It's not the best motive. But it certainly a starting point. The best motive in my understanding is for someone to live the standards out of love for their savior. Their motive not being based on what reward they will receive.
If someone starts off with a lesser motive to live the standards but then leads to better motives (which is probably everyone)There is nothing wrong with that. Dallin h oaks gave a couple talks on this subject. Nobody ever starts off with perfect Christlike intentions. The main goal though is to develop that charity as described by Paul and Moroni or the pure love of Christ.

One of the worst motives and the scriptures bear this out. Is performances based living the standards solely to look good in front of other people. Christ held his harshest criticism for the Pharisees who by outward appearances were holier than though living every outward appearance commandment to the T while plotting the death of Jesus Christ. Christ called them white washed sepulchers. Having unvarnished appearance on the outside and being empty on the inside except for dead men's bones


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 Post subject: Re: A question of motivation
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:53 am 
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I appreciate you engaging me in this conversation.

Quote:
The best motive in my understanding is for someone to live the standards out of love for their savior.


Do all people love the Savior so much that they want to make all these sacrifices? For those that do not possess this love, what exactly would change their mind? At what point in being owned and treated as a perpetual debtor or even worse a slave, does this love turn to hate. Martin Luther admitted that he indeed hated this God that he was commanded to worship. If you look at what God required of him vicariously through the current Catholic priesthood authority, it's a little easier to understand why.

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This liberal would be about socializing … uh, umm. … Would be about, basically, taking over, and the government running all of your companies


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 Post subject: Re: A question of motivation
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:22 am 
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Maxine Waters wrote:
I appreciate you engaging me in this conversation.

Quote:
The best motive in my understanding is for someone to live the standards out of love for their savior.


Do all people love the Savior so much that they want to make all these sacrifices? For those that do not possess this love, what exactly would change their mind? At what point in being owned and treated as a perpetual debtor or even worse a slave, does this love turn to hate. Martin Luther admitted that he indeed hated this God that he was commanded to worship. If you look at what God required of him vicariously through the current Catholic priesthood authority, it's a little easier to understand why.

I don't consider going to church paying tithing or fast offerings a sacrifice. I personally don't struggle in these areas in other areas I do struggles. But there is a definite peace and satisfaction that comes to living/trying to live the commandments. As long as I'm headed in the right direction it does not matter to me what other people think or how many mistakes I make etc. I don't think the lord punishes those who are honestly trying.
At times in the case of luther and apostles and prophets at times they may have hated giving up their entire adult lives to their master Jesus Christ. I can understand that sentiment. I have a hard giving up my time in service but afterwards have always enjoyed the peace and sentiment that comes with it when I do serve. There are quotes from Christ that I think explains the sentiment. Those who give up their will to the lord will find out who they are and what potential is within them. Life goes beyond the grave. Following the commandments for blessings in heaven is fine there is a better motive though.

35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.

25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:


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 Post subject: Re: A question of motivation
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:22 am 
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Maxine Waters wrote:
I appreciate you engaging me in this conversation.

Quote:
The best motive in my understanding is for someone to live the standards out of love for their savior.


Do all people love the Savior so much that they want to make all these sacrifices? For those that do not possess this love, what exactly would change their mind? At what point in being owned and treated as a perpetual debtor or even worse a slave, does this love turn to hate. Martin Luther admitted that he indeed hated this God that he was commanded to worship. If you look at what God required of him vicariously through the current Catholic priesthood authority, it's a little easier to understand why.

I don't consider going to church paying tithing or fast offerings a sacrifice. I personally don't struggle in these areas in other areas I do struggle. But there is a definite peace and satisfaction that comes to living/trying to live the commandments. As long as I'm headed in the right direction it does not matter to me what other people think or how many mistakes I make etc. I don't think the lord punishes those who are honestly trying.
At times in the case of luther and apostles and prophets may have hated giving up their entire adult lives to their master Jesus Christ. I can understand that sentiment. I have a hard giving up my time in service but afterwards have always enjoyed the peace and sentiment that comes with it when I do serve. There are quotes from Christ that I think explains the sentiment. Those who give up their will to the lord will find out who they are and what potential is within them. Life goes beyond the grave. Following the commandments for blessings in heaven is fine there is a better motive though.

35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel’s, the same shall save it.

25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

this is the second time this has repeated a post can a repeated post be deleted


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 Post subject: Re: A question of motivation
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 9:52 am 
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When Jesus spoke of laying up treasure in heaven, what do you think he was referring to?

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 Post subject: Re: A question of motivation
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:32 am 
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Maxine Waters wrote:
When Jesus spoke of laying up treasure in heaven, what do you think he was referring to?


Eternal life


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 Post subject: Re: A question of motivation
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:16 pm 
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Eternal life with like minded people


What is required of people to get that?

Elder Uchtdorf seemed to say he viewed our exaltation as a free gift not obtained through works. He asked, "Why do any of these works if they don't change the result?" In responding to his own question he said that we do all these works out of gratitude for Christ's free gift. My question is what if you're not so overcome with gratitude that you want to do these works? Obviously some people are not. Why would they want to train themselves to feel more indebted or grateful?

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This liberal would be about socializing … uh, umm. … Would be about, basically, taking over, and the government running all of your companies


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 Post subject: Re: A question of motivation
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 7:58 pm 
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Maxine Waters wrote:
Quote:
Eternal life with like minded people


What is required of people to get that?

Elder Uchtdorf seemed to say he viewed our exaltation as a free gift not obtained through works. He asked, "Why do any of these works if they don't change the result?" In responding to his own question he said that we do all these works out of gratitude for Christ's free gift. My question is what if you're not so overcome with gratitude that you want to do these works? Obviously some people are not. Why would they want to train themselves to feel more indebted or grateful?


Grace is a free gift and it is not obtained through your own merit. You must accept gods gift that's were many people fail to do. The accepting part is continual progression through the atonement (repentance and faith, trying to be like the person who gave you this free gift)

A positive attitude, gratitude like grace is a choice. You can choose to have or develop gratitude

As to why someone would develop gratitude is the same answer to your first question and the first ordnance and principle of the gospel faith. If you believe in the after life as taught by the gospel. Why would you not want to develop those qualities such as faith gratitude patience etc


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 Post subject: Re: A question of motivation
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:08 am 
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Elder Uchtdorf seemed to say he viewed our exaltation as a free gift not obtained through works. He asked, "Why do any of these works if they don't change the result?" In responding to his own question he said that we do all these works out of gratitude for Christ's free gift. My question is what if you're not so overcome with gratitude that you want to do these works? Obviously some people are not. Why would they want to train themselves to feel more indebted or grateful?[/quote]

Grace is a free gift and it is not obtained through your own merit. You must accept gods gift that's were many people fail to do. The accepting part is continual progression through the atonement (repentance and faith, trying to be like the person who gave you this free gift)

A positive attitude, gratitude like grace is a choice. You can choose to have or develop gratitude

As to why someone would develop gratitude is the same answer to your first question and the first ordnance and principle of the gospel faith. If you believe in the after life as taught by the gospel. Why would you not want to develop those qualities such as faith gratitude patience etc[/quote]

As a born again evangelical, my life before Christ was just nominal Christian living-go to church, try to be good, give a little of time and resources in service-just day to day ,no big deal. My born again experience was triggered (William James in Varieties of Religious Experiences cites hundreds) by a feeling of no peace, no joy, and a life of secret sin. Confronted with my sin and my need for a redeemer/savior I gave my life to Christ through a friend using the sinner's prayer. in an instance i was delivered from a habit of profanity, freed from sexual sin, motivated to read the bible voraciously, serve my family, work with the homeless, participate in worship services with gusto and joy; give generously of $$ and talents and serve in my congregation; lead others to Christ. What really happened? as i look back, i stepped out in whatever little faith i had and repented of my sinful life, understood, believed and accepted the gift of Jesus as Son of God, and Christ's passion and death for me personally to receive eternal life- and i understood it all to be grace, nothing i did merited the gift i received that day in january, 1986. Decades later the holy spirit continues to motivate my life 24/7 and i serve others as a disciple of Jesus Christ unashamed. It's all grace and surrender to Jesus Christ as savior and lord of my life.

k


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 Post subject: Re: A question of motivation
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:58 am 
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kairos wrote:
Elder Uchtdorf seemed to say he viewed our exaltation as a free gift not obtained through works. He asked, "Why do any of these works if they don't change the result?" In responding to his own question he said that we do all these works out of gratitude for Christ's free gift. My question is what if you're not so overcome with gratitude that you want to do these works? Obviously some people are not. Why would they want to train themselves to feel more indebted or grateful?


Grace is a free gift and it is not obtained through your own merit. You must accept gods gift that's were many people fail to do. The accepting part is continual progression through the atonement (repentance and faith, trying to be like the person who gave you this free gift)

A positive attitude, gratitude like grace is a choice. You can choose to have or develop gratitude

As to why someone would develop gratitude is the same answer to your first question and the first ordnance and principle of the gospel faith. If you believe in the after life as taught by the gospel. Why would you not want to develop those qualities such as faith gratitude patience etc[/quote]

As a born again evangelical, my life before Christ was just nominal Christian living-go to church, try to be good, give a little of time and resources in service-just day to day ,no big deal. My born again experience was triggered (William James in Varieties of Religious Experiences cites hundreds) by a feeling of no peace, no joy, and a life of secret sin. Confronted with my sin and my need for a redeemer/savior I gave my life to Christ through a friend using the sinner's prayer. in an instance i was delivered from a habit of profanity, freed from sexual sin, motivated to read the bible voraciously, serve my family, work with the homeless, participate in worship services with gusto and joy; give generously of $$ and talents and serve in my congregation; lead others to Christ. What really happened? as i look back, i stepped out in whatever little faith i had and repented of my sinful life, understood, believed and accepted the gift of Jesus as Son of God, and Christ's passion and death for me personally to receive eternal life- and i understood it all to be grace, nothing i did merited the gift i received that day in january, 1986. Decades later the holy spirit continues to motivate my life 24/7 and i serve others as a disciple of Jesus Christ unashamed. It's all grace and surrender to Jesus Christ as savior and lord of my life.

k[/quote]

Your story wether among evangelical christians or lds members is not unique. A desire and faith will change any bodies life for the better.


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 Post subject: Re: A question of motivation
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:03 am 
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Quote:
The accepting part is continual progression through the atonement (repentance and faith, trying to be like the person who gave you this free gift)


Perhaps that's the confusion. When I think of acceptance, I think of just two words, "I accept," then it's done. The acceptance that you're describing seems more like an eternal covenant where if you don't meet your terms of the contract, the free gift can be rescinded. I'm not sure how you can call that free. when it takes many years to do the work that is required to accept.

Can someone accept this free gift an hour before they die and get the same free gift of salvation? If so, why accept the burdens that are attached to such a gift early in life? Why not wait so you can keep your life that you have now and enjoy it?

What actually constitutes are person trying to live the commandments? Can anyone really say that they served the Lord with all their heart might, mind, and strength? What happened to the young ruler who refused to sell all he owned and give it to the poor? How many LDS have sold everything and given it to the poor? What happens to someone who only gave less than 100% effort and time? Was that just a waste of time and effort for them and will they be spewed out of the Lord's mouth like lukewarm water bound to inherit nothing? 100% effort seems a lot like perfection and by that definition nearly every saint is lukewarm. Who can ever say they are worthy of the Celestial kingdom?

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This liberal would be about socializing … uh, umm. … Would be about, basically, taking over, and the government running all of your companies


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 Post subject: Re: A question of motivation
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 10:18 am 
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Maxine Waters wrote:
Quote:
The accepting part is continual progression through the atonement (repentance and faith, trying to be like the person who gave you this free gift)


Perhaps that's the confusion. When I think of acceptance, I think of just two words, "I accept," then it's done. The acceptance that you're describing seems more like an eternal covenant where if you don't meet your terms of the contract, the free gift can be rescinded. I'm not sure how you can call that free. when it takes many years to do the work that is required to accept.

Can someone accept this free gift an hour before they die and get the same free gift of salvation? If so, why accept the burdens that are attached to such a gift early in life? Why not wait so you can keep your life that you have now and enjoy it?

What actually constitutes are person trying to live the commandments? Can anyone really say that they served the Lord with all their heart might, mind, and strength? What happened to the young ruler who refused to sell all he owned and give it to the poor? How many LDS have sold everything and given it to the poor? What happens to someone who only gave less than 100% effort and time? Was that just a waste of time and effort for them and will they be spewed out of the Lord's mouth like lukewarm water bound to inherit nothing? 100% effort seems a lot like perfection and by that definition nearly every saint is lukewarm. Who can ever say they are worthy of the Celestial kingdom?


I think the answer to this is two fold who is your master sin, yourself, or Jesus Christ. Who do you strive to serve yourself or your fellow brothers and sisters. Secondly the scriptures make it clear that the lord wants to see progression not digression. The lord wants us to be a better person the when we started.
Does the lord expect the same from someone who grew up in a crack addicted family versus someone who grew up in a loving well balanced lds family. No the crack addict might might spend the majority of his life trying to overcome the demons in the envioroment that he grew up in. While the other person might have church callings with high demands and responsibilities.

In the parable of the talents Mathew 25 three people were given money.
One received 1 talent another two talents and another 5 talents. The one with 5 came back with 10 the one with 2 came back with 4. The one with one was afraid and did not TRY and get an Increase. quess which one got in trouble. The one who did not try who had no progression. The one who brought back 4 talents and the other who brought back 10recieved the same reward.
In the parable of the labourers Mathew 10 some worked the whole day some half a day and some at the end of the day but all received the same amount of money for their work.

In the parable of the vineyard some said they would work in the vineyard and did not and were dammed. Some at the beginning said they would not work and repented and returned to work in the vineyard and were rewarded.

These parables are very clear that the lord expects you to you reach your potential based on your talents and abilities and you will receive the same reward as any prophet living today and before you.

If you think you can live for yourself or sin and at the time of your death say that grace has changed you are sadly mistaken. Although the scriptures gives leeway for repentance near the end of ones life it does does not for death bed repentance for those who grew up in or were taught the gospel.

33 And now, as I said unto you before, as ye have had so many witnesses, therefore, I beseech of you that ye do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. (Alma 34)

Grace is a free gift because you didn't do anything to do deserve it and only you can rescind it. The atonement is the free gift that allows to be clean before your Heavenly Father. Clean from all the mistakes and sins you made free from living in a sick and evil world.


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 Post subject: Re: A question of motivation
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 12:57 pm 
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Quote:
These parables are very clear that the lord expects you to you reach your potential based on your talents and abilities


Can anyone say they reached their full potential based on their talents and abilities?

Quote:
In the parable of the labourers Mathew 10 some worked the whole day some half a day and some at the end of the day but all received the same amount of money for their work.


So why go into work on time if you get the same reward by coming in late?

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This liberal would be about socializing … uh, umm. … Would be about, basically, taking over, and the government running all of your companies


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 Post subject: Re: A question of motivation
PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 8:48 pm 
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Maxine Waters wrote:
Quote:
These parables are very clear that the lord expects you to you reach your potential based on your talents and abilities


Can anyone say they reached their full potential based on their talents and abilities?

Quote:
In the parable of the labourers Mathew 10 some worked the whole day some half a day and some at the end of the day but all received the same amount of money for their work.


So why go into work on time if you get the same reward by coming in late?

Yourself and god know if you are putting god first.

Technically you could serve another master most of your life and then try and switch.
But good luck trying to change. Forming lifelong bad habits ideas addictions, philosophies and the trying to change all that at the end of ones life seems like a very difficult a dum idea. besides you do not know when you will die. You could die tomorrow in a car accident etc. the scriptures are very adamant about procrastinating the day of repentance. Bad idea exahaltation is not worth chancing. The decision you make now will follow you for eternity


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 Post subject: Re: A question of motivation
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 7:53 am 
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Technically you could serve another master most of your life and then try and switch. But good luck trying to change. Forming lifelong bad habits ideas addictions, philosophies and the trying to change all that at the end of ones life seems like a very difficult a dum idea.


The workers who came later in the day in the parable of the laborers didn't seem to have any trouble with this. It was given to them through grace.

Quote:
besides you do not know when you will die. You could die tomorrow in a car accident etc. the scriptures are very adamant about procrastinating the day of repentance. Bad idea exahaltation is not worth chancing. The decision you make now will follow you for eternity


So you have your family baptize you for the dead and do your temple work.

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This liberal would be about socializing … uh, umm. … Would be about, basically, taking over, and the government running all of your companies


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 Post subject: Re: A question of motivation
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:04 am 
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bomgeography wrote:
One of the worst motives and the scriptures bear this out. Is performances based living the standards solely to look good in front of other people.


see "Helping Hands"

The reality is that, regardless of your motives, if the action benefits others...who cares?
For instance, Mother Theresa used to take money from criminals, who donated it to either assuage their own guilt or to look good in the community. Mother Theresa didn't care, she put the money to very good use.

The Church takes donations regardless of the person's worthiness or motivations.

Do you need any more examples?

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― Daniel Kahneman, Nobel Prize Winner, 'Thinking, Fast and Slow'


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 Post subject: Re: A question of motivation
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:34 am 
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I have a question wrote:
bomgeography wrote:
One of the worst motives and the scriptures bear this out. Is performances based living the standards solely to look good in front of other people.


see "Helping Hands"

The reality is that, regardless of your motives, if the action benefits others...who cares?
For instance, Mother Theresa used to take money from criminals, who donated it to either assuage their own guilt or to look good in the community. Mother Theresa didn't care, she put the money to very good use.

The Church takes donations regardless of the person's worthiness or motivations.

Do you need any more examples?


I say this in reference to the pharisees who on the outside were righteous and holy but were planning on killing and were successful at killing Christ.

If looking good in front of other people is another one of those motivating factors for humans in general it that leads to better things that is great. What Christ was warning about was living a completely double life. The public and private life being completely opposite from each other.


Last edited by bomgeography on Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A question of motivation
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2016 8:34 am 
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Maxine Waters wrote:
Quote:
Technically you could serve another master most of your life and then try and switch. But good luck trying to change. Forming lifelong bad habits ideas addictions, philosophies and the trying to change all that at the end of ones life seems like a very difficult a dum idea.


The workers who came later in the day in the parable of the laborers didn't seem to have any trouble with this. It was given to them through grace.

Quote:
besides you do not know when you will die. You could die tomorrow in a car accident etc. the scriptures are very adamant about procrastinating the day of repentance. Bad idea exahaltation is not worth chancing. The decision you make now will follow you for eternity


So you have your family baptize you for the dead and do your temple work.


Do it your way and let me know how it works for you.


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