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 Post subject: Are FLDS Mormons?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 6:26 pm 
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One criteria for membership in the "Mormon Church" might be valid baptism. The FLDS derive their authority to baptize through a priesthood line advanced by Lorin Woolley in the 1920s. The line is very problematic from a historical and doctrinal view. Importantly, if it is invalid, then their baptisms are not valid (D&C 22:1-2) and they could not claim to be "Mormons" in the same sense that Joseph Smith or individuals who have valid baptisms today are "Mormons."


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 Post subject: Re: Are FLDS Mormons?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:46 pm 
God
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Best to use the term FN-Mormons, to distinguish them from the main group.

Have any of the FLDS been tested for the Cohen gene?

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 Post subject: Re: Are FLDS Mormons?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:12 am 
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I think they aren't Latter-Day Saints, but the word Mormon is broad and refers to more than just members of the SLC-based LDS Church.


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 Post subject: Re: Are FLDS Mormons?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:37 am 
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Everyone has the power of and to connect and to God.
Just because one imperfect person is not a part of the same exact sub-group of another imperfect person doesn't make their spiritual power greater or less-than.
Priesthood is like a divination tool - a way to help (primarily men) have faith in their already inherent "kingdom of God within."

As someone else noted, some - especially mothers - have this intuition and power to love (act for God) without any formal ordination.
I see priesthood in Mormonism as good in a way that inspires men to serve and love more than they might otherwise, and bad because it tends to also inspire pride (self-rightousness) and division.

Re: Baptism...
"Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
Although I think the ordinance of baptism is beautifully symbolic, I see the "born of water" part of the scripture above fulfilled when we each were born of water of the amniotic fluid from our mothers.


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 Post subject: Re: Are FLDS Mormons?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:13 am 
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If the LDS can claim to be Christians, then the flds can claim to be Mormon.

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Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
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 Post subject: Re: Are FLDS Mormons?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:02 pm 
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BrianHales wrote:
One criteria for membership in the "Mormon Church" might be valid baptism. The FLDS derive their authority to baptize through a priesthood line advanced by Lorin Woolley in the 1920s. The line is very problematic from a historical and doctrinal view. Importantly, if it is invalid, then their baptisms are not valid (D&C 22:1-2) and they could not claim to be "Mormons" in the same sense that Joseph Smith or individuals who have valid baptisms today are "Mormons."


What ever happened to the command from on high that we were not to refer to ourselves as the "Mormon Church" anyway? Was it not for the exact reason for which you are now using it instead of what you were instructed to call it in specifically these kind of cases?

Also D&C 22 does not mention "Mormon" or the official title of the Corporate Sole

Oh and Welcome Brother Hales ... its great to have you here!


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 Post subject: Re: Are FLDS Mormons?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:55 pm 
Savior (mortal ministry)
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BrianHales wrote:
The FLDS derive their authority to baptize through a priesthood line advanced by Lorin Woolley in the 1920s. The line is very problematic from a historical and doctrinal view.


This claim really needs some actual details included.

I'm also wondering what about the FLDS practice of polygamy that is at odds with the polygamy initially practiced by the CoJCoLDS?


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 Post subject: Re: Are FLDS Mormons?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:02 pm 
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canpakes wrote:
BrianHales wrote:
The FLDS derive their authority to baptize through a priesthood line advanced by Lorin Woolley in the 1920s. The line is very problematic from a historical and doctrinal view.


This claim really needs some actual details included.

I'm also wondering what about the FLDS practice of polygamy that is at odds with the polygamy initially practiced by the CoJCoLDS?


Brian is right about the question of if the FLDS have the keys required for baptism.

Daymon Smith discusses the issue somewhere in this series (its been a long time)
http://mormonstories.org/daymon-smith-o ... nd-mammon/

The above being an excellent listen on the split as well as a must listen about the evolution of correlation.


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 Post subject: Re: Are FLDS Mormons?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:48 pm 
Savior (mortal ministry)
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RockSlider wrote:
Brian is right about the question of if the FLDS have the keys required for baptism.

Daymon Smith discusses the issue somewhere in this series (its been a long time)
http://mormonstories.org/daymon-smith-o ... nd-mammon/

The above being an excellent listen on the split as well as a must listen about the evolution of correlation.

Thank you, RockSlider - that's just the sort of thing that I was looking for, in order to gain a better understanding of the claim. I will give this a listen.


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 Post subject: Re: Are FLDS Mormons?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:59 am 
God
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As the LDS claims to the Melchizedek priesthood, and Aaronic priesthood are spurious, made up BS. And as the succession crisis miracle of the transforming BY is made up, giving the Salt Lake City branch of the church no more claim to authority than any of the other groups. The flds claims to taking it with them when they left are just as legit/equally garbage as any other, as is Denver's claim to be the true holder of the keys now. Again, if the LDS can claim to be christian, then any lds offshoot group has just as much right to claim to be mormon.

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Some of us, on the other hand, actually prefer a religion that includes some type of correlation with reality.
~Bill Hamblin


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 Post subject: Re: Are FLDS Mormons?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:05 am 
God
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BrianHales wrote:
One criteria for membership in the "Mormon Church" might be valid baptism.

There's no such thing as the "Mormon Church".
There's Mormonism, a descriptor used to label the religious communities at whose core is the scripture known as the Book of Mormon.
There's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, whose members are commonly referred to as "Mormons" (as are members of the FLDS).
But there's no Mormon Church.
Your opening sentence appears to be a very lame attempt at constructing a straw man.

Quote:
The FLDS derive their authority to baptize through a priesthood line advanced by Lorin Woolley in the 1920s.

Actually the FLDS can trace their authority all the way back to Joseph Smith and can argue that it was the Latter-day sect that moved away from the core tenets of the Church that Joseph set up.

Quote:
The line is very problematic from a historical and doctrinal view.

Not really.
The Latter-day Saint line is infinitely more problematic from a historical and doctrinal view when compared to the religion that Joseph Smith set up.

Quote:
Importantly, if it is invalid, then their baptisms are not valid (D&C 22:1-2) and they could not claim to be "Mormons" in the same sense that Joseph Smith or individuals who have valid baptisms today are "Mormons."

The FLDS members are more aligned to what Joseph would understand as being "Mormon". If anyones baptismal validity needs to be looked at (in light of its comparison to the Church that Joseph Smith set up) it's the Latter-day Saint splinter sect, as they are the furthest removed from the original.

Your question should be "Are Latter-day Saints 'Mormon' in the sense that they practice the religion the way Joseph Smith practiced Mormonism?"
The answer would be no.
For the FLDS the answer would be yes.

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That said, with the Book of Mormon, we are not dealing with a civilization with no written record. What we are dealing with is a written record with no civilization. (Runtu, Feb 2015)


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 Post subject: Re: Are FLDS Mormons?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:04 pm 
Nursery

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BrianHales wrote:
One criteria for membership in the "Mormon Church" might be valid baptism. The FLDS derive their authority to baptize through a priesthood line advanced by Lorin Woolley in the 1920s. The line is very problematic from a historical and doctrinal view. Importantly, if it is invalid, then their baptisms are not valid (D&C 22:1-2) and they could not claim to be "Mormons" in the same sense that Joseph Smith or individuals who have valid baptisms today are "Mormons."


If you're LDS, then of course you should not see their baptisms as valid, since neither their baptisms nor their conveying of the priesthood is valid if they reject the living prophet who holds all the keys.

Mormon can mean a bunch of things based on context..

It's like asking if humans are animals. Well yes biologically, but not for the purposes of some discussions, e.g. what distinguishes humans from the animals.

Best answer I can think of is that FLDS are apostate Mormons.


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 Post subject: Re: Are FLDS Mormons?
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:16 pm 
God
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BrianHales wrote:
One criteria for membership in the "Mormon Church" might be valid baptism. The FLDS derive their authority to baptize through a priesthood line advanced by Lorin Woolley in the 1920s. The line is very problematic from a historical and doctrinal view. Importantly, if it is invalid, then their baptisms are not valid (D&C 22:1-2) and they could not claim to be "Mormons" in the same sense that Joseph Smith or individuals who have valid baptisms today are "Mormons."



This also begs the question of if anyone baptized into the Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints after December of 2014, after the Lord had wrested the keys from the LDS church apostles and Presidency and gave them over to Denver Snuffer are Mormons.


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 Post subject: Re: Are FLDS Mormons?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2015 1:09 pm 
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RockSlider wrote:
What ever happened to the command from on high that we were not to refer to ourselves as the "Mormon Church" anyway? Was it not for the exact reason for which you are now using it instead of what you were instructed to call it in specifically these kind of cases?
I also remember when this was the instruction from on high. I think it has fallen by the wayside simply the church finally saw it as a lost cause. Similar to Kleenex vs. Tissue, or Xerox vs. Photocopy, or Zipper vs. Button-less Fastening System. The church wanted to be "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints", but Mormon was just too easy and convenient.

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