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 Post subject: Book of Mormon Sources: Anti-Nephi-Lehies Story
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:47 pm 
Nursery
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With all the great work done by Dan Vogel and others on sources for Book of Mormon stories available in Joseph Smith's time and place, I've still never seen any sourcing for the story of the Anti-Nephi-Lehies people burying their weapons and submitting to the onslaught of their enemy.

Of course, we know today that a number of First Peoples have stories that correspond with this story (notably among others, the Hopi). However, I have yet to see any historiography of these stories, showing the history of their circulation in and before Joseph's day.

When I converted to Mormonism, this was one of the most compelling moral messages I found in the tradition (much better than chopping off heads, endless racist wars, and forced conscription on pain of death). This story in the Book of Mormon was more than a century before the inspiring Satyagraha movement in Gandhi's day, which was very important to me.

Now that I am a post-believer, I still would like to see some of our great historians in this community dig up (pardon the pun) the source stories that would have been available to Joseph Smith, Jr., author and proprietor.

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 Post subject: Re: Book of Mormon Sources: Anti-Nephi-Lehies Story
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:03 pm 
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Hi, billscheurer!

I don't think much was published about Native American mythology before Franz Boas in the early twentieth century. So, there may not be much to dig up that Joseph Smith might have read before writing the Book of Mormon.

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 Post subject: Re: Book of Mormon Sources: Anti-Nephi-Lehies Story
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:47 pm 
Nursery
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Quasimodo, thanks! Evidence of oral stories circulating at the time also would qualify as satisfactory historiography for me in the absence of printed stories. In general, I find sources of modern accounts of First Peoples' stories to be lacking, so the general challenge goes beyond just these stories.

Quasimodo wrote:
Hi, billscheurer!

I don't think much was published about Native American mythology before Franz Boas in the early twentieth century. So, there may not be much to dig up that Joseph Smith might have read before writing the Book of Mormon.


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 Post subject: Re: Book of Mormon Sources: Anti-Nephi-Lehies Story
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 7:12 pm 
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Why must it have come from somewhere? If the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction (which is most likely what it is), Joseph Smith could simply have come up with the idea on his own.

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 Post subject: Re: Book of Mormon Sources: Anti-Nephi-Lehies Story
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2016 7:18 pm 
Bell Ringer
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billscheurer wrote:
Quasimodo, thanks! Evidence of oral stories circulating at the time also would qualify as satisfactory historiography for me in the absence of printed stories. In general, I find sources of modern accounts of First Peoples' stories to be lacking, so the general challenge goes beyond just these stories.


I don't think that European immigrants to North America at that time (early Eighteen Hundreds) were very much interested in anything Native Americans had to say. Any oral traditions would have been from the local tribes that lived near Joseph Smith.

If you do find any oral stories from that time and place, please post them! I would love to read them. We have lost so much history.

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 Post subject: Re: Book of Mormon Sources: Anti-Nephi-Lehies Story
PostPosted: Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:07 am 
Nursery
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From Jeremy FiveCrows - https://www.facebook.com/groups/mormonV ... 086757083/

I was reading my kids a book about the founding of the Iroquois Confederacy and was struck by something that sounded strangely familiar. Is it just me or is this the same story:

IROQUOIS STORY
He then uprooted the tree and it created a cavity. He instructed the men to cast down their weapons of war into the cavity to bury their greed, hatred and jealousy. The tree was then replaced and the Peacemaker then said:
"Into the depths of the earth, down into the deep under earth currents of water flowing into unknown regions, we cast all weapons of strife. We bury them from sight forever and plant again the tree. Thus shall all Great Peace be established and hostilities shall no longer be known between the Five Nations but only peace to a united people."

ALMA 24:17-18
And now it came to pass that when the king had made an end of these sayings, and all the people were assembled together, they took their swords, and all the weapons which were used for the shedding of man’s blood, and they did bury them up deep in the earth.
And this they did, it being in their view a testimony to God, and also to men, that they never would use weapons again for the shedding of man’s blood; and this they did, vouching and covenanting with God, that rather than shed the blood of their brethren they would give up their own lives; and rather than take away from a brother they would give unto him; and rather than spend their days in idleness they would labor abundantly with their hands.


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 Post subject: Re: Book of Mormon Sources: Anti-Nephi-Lehies Story
PostPosted: Mon Apr 25, 2016 9:07 am 
God
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This might be considered as a pictorial memorial to Lehi, Nephi and Joseph
(with Joseph on top representing the pinnacle of the last dispensation.)

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 Post subject: Re: Book of Mormon Sources: Anti-Nephi-Lehies Story
PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2016 10:20 am 
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Even back when I was still a believer this supposed history of the Anti-Nephi-Lehites is another story in the Book of Mormon that screamed fiction to me (of which I did my best to ignore and rationalize). My BS detector went off with just about every element of the story. It goes against human nature to think that a large group of people would bury something of value in the earth to make a point. I could see someone selling off their weapons as they decide that they no longer want them or possibly giving them away, but never just burying them in the ground when there are so many other possibilities for items such as these in their time. The idea that an entire society would come together and do this makes it even more unbelievable. As a literary device, this story makes a good point but as an actual history......I don't think I ever believed a word of it.


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