Genesis 2:7 & John 8:44 together trump the Mormon understanding of what you imagine God is saying. The Book of Hebrews is directed to the Jews in general. They are a chosen people in general. As a chosen people they were to be representatives of God. Scripture must be interpreted based on other scripture. I consider myself a child of God, but that hinges on having a personal relationship with God through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. I have been reborn in the spirit. I am no longer controlled by satan. However, my linage still goes back to GOD creating Adam and not some god with a wife called wisdom having spirit babies. I am fully convinced such to be a lie of satan to corrupt, confound, and confuse.

Two men enter.

One man leaves.

Who is Papa Joe?

Genesis 14:1-24 A war breaks and king Amraphel, Arioch, Chedorlaomer and Tidal attack king Bera of Sodom, Birsha of Gomorrah, Sinab of Admah, Shemeber of Zebiom and Bela of Zoar. The kings of the cities of the plain joined forces in Siddim Valley (where now is the the Dead Sea). 12 years they had been subject to King Chedorlaomer, but in the thirteenth year they rebelled against him. A year later Chedorlaomer and his allies arrived and defeated the Rephaites at Ashteroth-karnaim, the Zuzites at Ham, the Emites at Shaveh-kiriathaim, and the Horites at Mount Seir. Then they turned back to what is now called Kadesh and conquered the Amalekites, and also the Amorites living in Hazazon-tamar.
The rebel kings of Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboiim, and Zoar prepared for battle in the valley of the Dead Sea. They fought against King Chedorlaomer of Elam, King Tidal of Goiim, King Amraphel of Babylonia, and King Arioch of Ellasar. The Siddim Valley was filled with tar pits.
Losing the battle the armies of kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, some fell into the tar pits, while the rest escaped into the mountains. The invaders then plundered Sodom and Gomorrah and headed home, taking all the spoils of war. Abram’s nephew Lot living in Sodom is also captured, and everything he owned. One of Lot’s men escaped and reported everything to Abram. Abram gathered 318 of his men. Abram caught up with Chedorlaomer at Dan. Chedorlaomer’s army fled, but Abram chased them north of Damascus. Abram recovered everything, and brought back his nephew Lot with his possessions and all the captives. The king of Sodom went out to meet Abram in the King’s Valley.
Melchizedek, the king of Salem (Peace) and a priest of God Most High, (Melchizedek [King of Righteous] is most likely CHRIST himself) brings Abram some bread and wine and blessed Abram. Abram gives 10% of the goods he recovered to the priest. Bera king of Sodom tells Abram to keep the spoils but give to him his subjects. Abram says he will not keep anything because he made that promise to God. He wants no part of Sodom's treasure. Abram accepts only the food his men have eaten and asks a fair share of goods be given to Abrams allies.

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

14 And it cometh to pass in the days of Amraphel king of Shinar, Arioch king of Ellasar, Chedorlaomer king of Elam, and Tidal king of Goyim,

2 they have made war with Bera king of Sodom, and with Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, and Shemeber king of Zeboim, and the king of Bela, which [is] Zoar.

3 All these have been joined together unto the valley of Siddim, which [is] the Salt Sea;

4 twelve years they served Chedorlaomer, and the thirteenth year they rebelled.

5 And in the fourteenth year came Chedorlaomer, and the kings who [are] with him, and they smite the Rephaim in Ashteroth Karnaim, and the Zuzim in Ham, and the Emim in Shaveh Kiriathaim,

6 and the Horites in their mount Seir, unto El-Paran, which [is] by the wilderness;

7 and they turn back and come in unto En-Mishpat, which [is] Kadesh, and smite the whole field of the Amalekite, and also the Amorite who is dwelling in Hazezon-Tamar.

8 And the king of Sodom goeth out, and the king of Gomorrah, and the king of Admah, and the king of Zeboim, and the king of Bela, which [is] Zoar; and they set the battle in array with them in the valley of Siddim,

9 with Chedorlaomer king of Elam, and Tidal king of Goyim, and Amraphel king of Shinar, and Arioch king of Ellasar; four kings with the five.

10 And the valley of Siddim [is] full of bitumen-pits; and the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah flee, and fall there, and those left have fled to the mountain.

11 And they take the whole substance of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the whole of their food, and go away;

12 and they take Lot, Abram's brother's son (seeing he is dwelling in Sodom), and his substance, and go away.

13 And one who is escaping cometh and declareth to Abram the Hebrew, and he is dwelling among the oaks of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol, and brother of Aner, and they [are] Abram's allies.

14 And Abram heareth that his brother hath been taken captive, and he draweth out his trained domestics, three hundred and eighteen, and pursueth unto Dan.

15 And he divideth himself against them by night, he and his servants, and smiteth them, and pursueth them unto Hobah, which [is] at the left of Damascus;

16 and he bringeth back the whole of the substance, and also Lot his brother and his substance hath he brought back, and also the women and the people.

17 And the king of Sodom goeth out to meet him (after his turning back from the smiting of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings who [are] with him), unto the valley of Shaveh, which [is] the king's valley.

18 And Melchizedek king of Salem hath brought out bread and wine, and he [is] priest of God Most High;

19 and he blesseth him, and saith, `Blessed [is] Abram to God Most High, possessing heaven and earth;

20 and blessed [is] God Most High, who hath delivered thine adversaries into thy hand;' and he giveth to him a tenth of all.

21 And the king of Sodom saith unto Abram, `Give to me the persons, and the substance take to thyself,'

22 and Abram saith unto the king of Sodom, `I have lifted up my hand unto Jehovah, God Most High, possessing heaven and earth --

23 from a thread even unto a shoe-latchet I take not of anything which thou hast, that thou say not, I -- I have made Abram rich;

24 save only that which the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men who have gone with me -- Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre -- they take their portion.'

"If you can't dazzel them with brilliance, then baffle them with... Nipper, I keep quoting what the scriptures state; "ye are gods," "Adam who was the son of God," but you keep giving irrelevant quotes from Genesis along with man made opinions! You Evangelists want to keep promoting only the Bible, but then you don't really believe what it actually states! You just believe a warp twisted version in a futile attempt to justify you beliefs. However, you're just trying to fit a square peg in a smaller round hole!

Why do you want to be a god? Whose version is twisted and why? I believe the ENTIRE Bible --- not just select verses of scripture to promote baptism for the dead among other things... Do you believe God created the entire universe in 6 literal days? Do you believe God allowed a World-wide Flood to happen? Do you believe God made Adam from the dust and Eve from a portion of Adam's rib? The Bible clearly states these things. But you want to be a god. Well so does satan... Which side of Christ do you wish to sit on ---- His right or left?

Your version is twisted Nipper. I believe in ALL of the Bible as far as it is translated correctly (for example there are two conflicting accounts of Paul's vision of Christ which the JST corrects). You are the one who is selective, and I have clearly given you and Albion examples of this. For example, I showed you clearly the correct translation which shows that Adam was the son of God, and you don't want to accept that, just as I have given Albion "Ye are gods and all of you are the CHILDREN OF THE MOST HIGH," and you and he do not want to accept that!

God is my Heavenly Father and I am His son; however, I am still a created being. God has only ONE SON He called begotten. You nor I are begotten sons.
And the Dead Sea Scrolls are proof that the Old Testament has not changed in 2000 plus years. That would take us to the time of Jesus. As a god of the Most High GOD I am warning you, according to all of GOD's Word, you are in error.

That's not quite true:



The books of the Bible exist in several versions that do not always agree. The Bible is a collection of stories that were later compiled into a single book. Those that compiled it had their own political reasons for making it the way we see it now.

My suggestion is that you read the following: http://www.apologeticspress.org/apconte ... rticle=357

LittleNipper, Here is what the organisers of your source believe:




I assume you agree with them on all of the above...?


Where to start...*facepalm*

Yes I do, and I didn't even read their doctrinal stance. Note: that they, as I --- hold that the entire body of redeemed believers are members of the one true church --- being the body of Christ. People who hate the Bible or take issue with the Bible always seem to find fault even where there is none. The facts are clear that the Old Testament we have is thousands of years old. It is the temple version that Jesus read as a 12 year old boy in Jerusalem. Liberals have a very hard time, because of obvious reasons. The main reason is such would make the fact of "God" far less debatable. It would hurt values such as "gay" marriage, etc...

Genesis 15:1-21 Abram has a vision and God says He is Abram's shield and will reward him. Abram says what can God provide since Abram is childless. He has a domestic (Demnesek) whom he considers as a son. God says that Abram will beget a son. And God had Abram look at the sky. And God tells Abram that his decendants will number the stars in the heavens, that God gave him the land where Abram was. Abram asks, how do can he know this will all happen. And God makes a covenant with Abram. God asks Abram for take a heifer, a she-goat of three years, and a ram all of three years of age --- plus a turtle-dove, and a young bird. These were cut in half and laid so God could walk between the halfs --- all except the young bird. And hungary birds came and attacked the meat and Abram chased them away. The sun is going down and Abram falls asleep. God says that Abram's descendants will reside in slavery for 400 years in a foreign land. This foreign country will be judged and his descendants will leave with great wealth. Abram will die at peace very old. When the sun finally goes down smoke and a flame passed between the halves of the offering. Abram is given all the land from the river of Egypt to the river Phrat.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 After these things hath the word of Jehovah been unto Abram in a vision, saying, `Fear not, Abram, I [am] a shield to thee, thy reward [is] exceeding great.'

2 And Abram saith, `Lord Jehovah, what dost Thou give to me, and I am going childless? and an acquired son in my house is Demmesek Eliezer.'

3 And Abram saith, `Lo, to me Thou hast not given seed, and lo, a domestic doth heir me.'

4 And lo, the word of Jehovah [is] unto him, saying, `This [one] doth not heir thee; but he who cometh out from thy bowels, he doth heir thee;'

5 and He bringeth him out without, and saith, `Look attentively, I pray thee, towards the heavens, and count the stars, if thou art able to count them;' and He saith to him, `Thus is thy seed.'

6 And he hath believed in Jehovah, and He reckoneth it to him -- righteousness.

7 And He saith unto him, `I [am] Jehovah who brought thee out from Ur of the Chaldees, to give to thee this land to possess it;'

8 and he saith, `Lord Jehovah, whereby do I know that I possess it?'

9 And He saith unto him, `Take for Me a heifer of three years, and a she-goat of three years, and a ram of three years, and a turtle-dove, and a young bird;'

10 and he taketh to him all these, and separateth them in the midst, and putteth each piece over against its fellow, but the bird he hath not divided;

11 and the ravenous birds come down upon the carcases, and Abram causeth them to turn back.

12 And the sun is about to go in, and deep sleep hath fallen upon Abram, and lo, a terror of great darkness is falling upon him;

13 and He saith to Abram, `knowing -- know that thy seed is a sojourner in a land not theirs, and they have served them, and they have afflicted them four hundred years,

14 and the nation also whom they serve I judge, and after this they go out with great substance;

15 and thou -- thou comest in unto thy fathers in peace; thou art buried in a good old age;

16 and the fourth generation doth turn back hither, for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet complete.'

17 And it cometh to pass -- the sun hath gone in, and thick darkness hath been -- and lo, a furnace of smoke, and a lamp of fire, which hath passed over between those pieces.

18 In that day hath Jehovah made with Abram a covenant, saying, `To thy seed I have given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Phrat,

19 with the Kenite, and the Kenizzite, and the Kadmonite,

20 and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Rephaim,

21 and the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Girgashite, and the Jebusite.'

Thanks Nipper! I did that.

I find that the web site you suggested is written by people that have a preconceived idea of the Bible. They believe that it is the result of God's inspiration. Comforting if you are already a believer, but not a very good way to make an unbiased conclusion. There is, of course, no way to prove that it truly is inspired of God. That is a matter of faith.

Perhaps you could remind me what the value of faith is. I'm a little confused about that.

That's exactly right! That's just another "Papa Joe" site which is filled with preconceived ideas, but lacking Biblical truths! Nipper, you are wrong again. The term "Only Begotten" is a shortened version of the original which is "The only begotten in the flesh," or in other words the only begotten son of God of flesh (meaning mortal flesh). This term has nothing to do with all the spirit children that were begotten by God as He is referred to correctly in Hebrews 12:9 as the "FATHER OF SPIRITS," and again in Acts 17:28 which states that "WE ARE HIS OFFSPRING." For that matter it has nothing to do with Adam, Eve, and all the first parents of all the worlds He has organized since they were also immortal when He begat them (see Luke 3:38 - not the "Papa Joe" translation!)!

The Mormon sites are full of the Book of Mormon with a little Humanism, Scientology, and Gnosticism. A person who is born again gets a new spirit and becomes an adopted child of God through the Lord Jesus Christ. God is the Father of those spirits and not evil ones. We have all been born of flesh. Who is being addressed in Acts. It is not everybody...

Preconcieved ideas? And you are going to tell me Mormon sites do not? Agnostic sites do not? Atheistic sites do not? Evolutionist sites do not? However, in the case of the site I showed to you, they are not insincere about spelling out what they believe and filling everyone in about it. There are no secret rituals, or hidden rooms. They are entirely open... Christians should be that way.

OK, kudos for their honesty in stating their intentions up front.

Agnostics and atheists generally don't have preconceived beliefs. That's what agnostics and atheists are all about. I can't answer for Mormons since I've never been one. Evolutionists (funny term) usually hold to what current scientific knowledge dictates. They have no religious ax to grind and are quite happy with whatever history and science turns up.

I just have very serious trouble believing people who start with premises learned in their childhood and then try to find some dubious facts to support them. You should have trouble with that too, if you would like to be honest.

Genesis 16:1-16 Sarai had not borne Abram any children; but she had an Egyptian slave-girl, named Hagar. Sarai said to her husband that she could not bear children; so use her slave-girl, and perhaps she shall have children through her. And Abram gave into Sarai. She gave Hagar the Egyptian slave-girl to her husband to wife; this happened ten years after that they had begun to live in the land of Canaan. Hagar saw that she had conceived, and she despised her mistress. And Sarai said to Abram that he must have been overly affectionate, and since Hagar is with child she treats Sarai like dirt. Abram answered and said the slave-girl is Sarai's --- she can do what she wishes. And so then Sarai made Haggar's life unbearable -- and she ran away. And angel of the Lord (likely Christ) came to Hagar by a well. He tells Hagar to return to Sarai repentant and he tells Hagar that her descendants shall not be able to be counted for their number. She was told she would have a son and that she should call him Ishmael. (the Lord heard my torment). And Ishmael will be a wild guy and he will be at odds with everyone and they will be against him. And Hagar also believes she saw God for she crys, LORD! Here (by the well) she saw him who sees her face to face (and lived). The well came to be called "The well of the Living One, my beholder." located between Kadesh and Bered. And Hagar gave a son to Abram (age 86), and he named him Ishmael.

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

16 And Sarai, Abram's wife, hath not borne to him, and she hath an handmaid, an Egyptian, and her name [is] Hagar;

2 and Sarai saith unto Abram, `Lo, I pray thee, Jehovah hath restrained me from bearing, go in, I pray thee, unto my handmaid; perhaps I am built up from her;' and Abram hearkeneth to the voice of Sarai.

3 And Sarai, Abram's wife, taketh Hagar the Egyptian, her handmaid, at the end of the tenth year of Abram's dwelling in the land of Canaan, and giveth her to Abram her husband, to him for a wife,

4 and he goeth in unto Hagar, and she conceiveth, and she seeth that she hath conceived, and her mistress is lightly esteemed in her eyes.

5 And Sarai saith unto Abram, `My violence [is] for thee; I -- I have given mine handmaid into thy bosom, and she seeth that she hath conceived, and I am lightly esteemed in her eyes; Jehovah doth judge between me and thee.'

6 And Abram saith unto Sarai, `Lo, thine handmaid [is] in thine hand, do to her that which is good in thine eyes;' and Sarai afflicted her, and she fleeth from her presence.

7 And a messenger of Jehovah findeth her by the fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way [to] Shur,

8 and he saith, `Hagar, Sarai's handmaid, whence hast thou come, and whither dost thou go?' and she saith, `From the presence of Sarai, my mistress, I am fleeing.'

9 And the messenger of Jehovah saith to her, `Turn back unto thy mistress, and humble thyself under her hands;'

10 and the messenger of Jehovah saith to her, `Multiplying I multiply thy seed, and it is not numbered from multitude;'

11 and the messenger of Jehovah saith to her, `Behold thou [art] conceiving, and bearing a son, and hast called his name Ishmael, for Jehovah hath hearkened unto thine affliction;

12 and he is a wild-ass man, his hand against every one, and every one's hand against him -- and before the face of all his brethren he dwelleth.'

13 And she calleth the name of Jehovah who is speaking unto her, `Thou [art], O God, my beholder;' for she said, `Even here have I looked behind my beholder?'

14 therefore hath one called the well, `The well of the Living One, my beholder;' lo, between Kadesh and Bered.

15 And Hagar beareth to Abram a son; and Abram calleth the name of his son, whom Hagar hath borne, Ishmael;

16 and Abram [is] a son of eighty and six years in Hagar's bearing Ishmael to Abram.

Genesis 17:1-27 Abram now 99 gets a visit from God. God again reminds Abram that he will be the father on many nations. As a token representing this Abram and all males of in his group are to be circumcised. Baby boys at eight days are to be circumcised. Every male servant Abram now owns or buys in the future is to be circumcised by Abram. This includes all male descendants. Sarai is to now be called Sarah. She will have a son. Abraham laughs in his heart at being a father (being 100) and is Sarah to be a bearing mother at 90? God tells Abrham that He has blessed Ishmael; however, Sarah will conceive a baby in a year, and the child is to be named Isaac. And that very day Abraham circumised every male in his household, including Ishmael, who was then 13 years old.


Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 And Abram is a son of ninety and nine years, and Jehovah appeareth unto Abram, and saith unto him, `I [am] God Almighty, walk habitually before Me, and be thou perfect;

2 and I give My covenant between Me and thee, and multiply thee very exceedingly.'

3 And Abram falleth upon his face, and God speaketh with him, saying,

4 `I -- lo, My covenant [is] with thee, and thou hast become father of a multitude of nations;

5 and thy name is no more called Abram, but thy name hath been Abraham, for father of a multitude of nations have I made thee;

6 and I have made thee exceeding fruitful, and made thee become nations, and kings go out from thee.

7 `And I have established My covenant between Me and thee, and thy seed after thee, to their generations, for a covenant age-during, to become God to thee, and to thy seed after thee;

8 and I have given to thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojournings, the whole land of Canaan, for a possession age-during, and I have become their God.'

9 And God saith unto Abraham, `And thou dost keep My covenant, thou and thy seed after thee, to their generations;

10 this [is] My covenant which ye keep between Me and you, and thy seed after thee: Every male of you [is] to be circumcised;

11 and ye have circumcised the flesh of your foreskin, and it hath become a token of a covenant between Me and you.

12 `And a son of eight days is circumcised by you; every male to your generations, born in the house, or bought with money from any son of a stranger, who is not of thy seed;

13 he is certainly circumcised who [is] born in thine house, or bought with thy money; and My covenant hath become in your flesh a covenant age-during;

14 and an uncircumcised one, a male, the flesh of whose foreskin is not circumcised, even that person hath been cut off from his people; My covenant he hath broken.'

15 And God saith unto Abraham, `Sarai thy wife -- thou dost not call her name Sarai, for Sarah [is] her name;

16 and I have blessed her, and have also given to thee a son from her; and I have blessed her, and she hath become nations -- kings of peoples are from her.'

17 And Abraham falleth upon his face, and laugheth, and saith in his heart, `To the son of an hundred years is one born? or doth Sarah -- daughter of ninety years -- bear?'

18 And Abraham saith unto God, `O that Ishmael may live before Thee;'

19 and God saith, `Sarah thy wife is certainly bearing a son to thee, and thou hast called his name Isaac, and I have established My covenant with him, for a covenant age-during, to his seed after him.

20 As to Ishmael, I have heard thee; lo, I have blessed him, and made him fruitful, and multiplied him, very exceedingly; twelve princes doth he beget, and I have made him become a great nation;

21 and My covenant I establish with Isaac, whom Sarah doth bear to thee at this appointed time in the next year;'

22 and He finisheth speaking with him, and God goeth up from Abraham.

23 And Abraham taketh Ishmael his son, and all those born in his house, and all those bought with his money -- every male among the men of Abraham's house -- and circumciseth the flesh of their foreskin, in this self-same day, as God hath spoken with him.

24 And Abraham [is] a son of ninety and nine years in the flesh of his foreskin being circumcised;

25 and Ishmael his son [is] a son of thirteen years in the flesh of his foreskin being circumcised;

26 in this self-same day hath Abraham been circumcised, and Ishmael his son;

27 and all the men of his house -- born in the house, and bought with money from the son of a stranger -- have been circumcised with him.

Yawn! We have all read this. It was very dull the first time I read it. Please move on. Maybe you could skip to the last page and let us fill in the rest.