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 Post subject: Re: Bible verse by verse
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:16 am 
God

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gdemetz wrote:
He is not really addressing the points; just rewriting the Bible.

Not rewriting, only providing my Christian understanding of the Bible. The verses are clearly there for anyone to read. If there is some confusion or someone disagrees, they can ask a questions or provide what they see the scripture saying. So far, either one must accept a literal understanding or one must reject a literal understand. If God provided a non-literal understanding of His Word, then one needs to provide a reason why God would bother to provide a seeming literal history.


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 Post subject: Re: Bible verse by verse
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 5:41 am 
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Genesis 11:1-9 We read that the entire world all spoke the same and fully understood each other's communications. The people began to move eastward to an area they called Shinar (meaning country of 2 rivers). They began to contemplate the creation of a city that they might construct themselves out of materials they formed themselves. And they imagined building a high place they believed would reach heaven. They saw themselves as great, wise, and of one mind. They didn't want to spread out but remain all together with an objective (not to be scattered). God could see the goal of the people and understood their heart. God knew that they would become corrupt in their imaginings faster if they were allowed to continue this project. So God changed the way everyone spoke and this caused the people to spread away fom one another. The city was left unfinished. So the city was called Babel because of what God did to the speech of man.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 And the whole earth is of one pronunciation, and of the same words,

2 and it cometh to pass, in their journeying from the east, that they find a valley in the land of Shinar, and dwell there;

3 and they say each one to his neighbour, `Give help, let us make bricks, and burn [them] thoroughly:' and the brick is to them for stone, and the bitumen hath been to them for mortar.

4 And they say, `Give help, let us build for ourselves a city and tower, and its head in the heavens, and make for ourselves a name, lest we be scattered over the face of all the earth.'

5 And Jehovah cometh down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men have builded;

6 and Jehovah saith, `Lo, the people [is] one, and one pronunciation [is] to them all, and this it hath dreamed of doing; and now, nothing is restrained from them of that which they have purposed to do.

7 Give help, let us go down, and mingle there their pronunciation, so that a man doth not understand the pronunciation of his companion.'

8 And Jehovah doth scatter them from thence over the face of all the earth, and they cease to build the city;

9 therefore hath [one] called its name Babel, for there hath Jehovah mingled the pronunciation of all the earth, and from thence hath Jehovah scattered them over the face of all the earth.


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 Post subject: Re: Bible verse by verse
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:19 am 
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LittleNipper wrote:
If God provided a non-literal understanding of His Word, then one needs to provide a reason why God would bother to provide a seeming literal history.


What is your evidence that "God...provide[s] a seeming[ly] literal history" in the Bible? What is your evidence that the narrative in e.g. Genesis is supposed to be interpreted as a literal history?

Bear in mind that the Midrash and really just the entire tradition of Biblical exegesis, in Jesus' day, interpreted Genesis allegorically.


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 Post subject: Re: Bible verse by verse
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 6:16 pm 
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Samantabhadra wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
If God provided a non-literal understanding of His Word, then one needs to provide a reason why God would bother to provide a seeming literal history.


What is your evidence that "God...provide[s] a seeming[ly] literal history" in the Bible? What is your evidence that the narrative in e.g. Genesis is supposed to be interpreted as a literal history?

Bear in mind that the Midrash and really just the entire tradition of Biblical exegesis, in Jesus' day, interpreted Genesis allegorically.

The Bible has various ways of interpretation. However, at the time of Christ the Pharisees took a very literal interpretaion of the Bible. The Sadducees did not. However, it seems most idiotic to "waste" line after line on genealogies (births and ages), if they are of no consequence. Israel is a prime example. The only claim the Jew has to the land of Israel is if what the Bible says is true. Otherwise, they need to give the land back and the Arab is in his right to take it back ---- if the Bible is not literal.


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 Post subject: Re: Bible verse by verse
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 2:36 am 
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LittleNipper wrote:
If God provided a non-literal understanding of His Word, then one needs to provide a reason why God would bother to provide a seeming literal history.


Samantabhadra wrote:
What is your evidence that "God...provide[s] a seeming[ly] literal history" in the Bible? What is your evidence that the narrative in e.g. Genesis is supposed to be interpreted as a literal history?

Bear in mind that the Midrash and really just the entire tradition of Biblical exegesis, in Jesus' day, interpreted Genesis allegorically.

LittleNipper wrote:
The Bible has various ways of interpretation. However, at the time of Christ the Pharisees took a very literal interpretaion of the Bible. The Sadducees did not. However, it seems most idiotic to "waste" line after line on genealogies (births and ages), if they are of no consequence. Israel is a prime example. The only claim the Jew has to the land of Israel is if what the Bible says is true. Otherwise, they need to give the land back and the Arab is in his right to take it back ---- if the Bible is not literal.


You seem to have not answered the questions...

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 Post subject: Re: Bible verse by verse
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:39 am 
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Drifting wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
If God provided a non-literal understanding of His Word, then one needs to provide a reason why God would bother to provide a seeming literal history.


Samantabhadra wrote:
What is your evidence that "God...provide[s] a seeming[ly] literal history" in the Bible? What is your evidence that the narrative in e.g. Genesis is supposed to be interpreted as a literal history?

Bear in mind that the Midrash and really just the entire tradition of Biblical exegesis, in Jesus' day, interpreted Genesis allegorically.

LittleNipper wrote:
The Bible has various ways of interpretation. However, at the time of Christ the Pharisees took a very literal interpretaion of the Bible. The Sadducees did not. However, it seems most idiotic to "waste" line after line on genealogies (births and ages), if they are of no consequence. Israel is a prime example. The only claim the Jew has to the land of Israel is if what the Bible says is true. Otherwise, they need to give the land back and the Arab is in his right to take it back ---- if the Bible is not literal.


You seem to have not answered the questions...

There is no proof that it is not literal. The birth of Jesus Christ was predicted according to the Bible. The facts surrounding where and why and what were all answered from centuries to thousands of years before they transpired. Locations provided in the Bible are factual. Many of the characters mentioned in the Bible have been discovered. There is no refutable evidence that anything in the Bible is in error. I might add that the very same cannot be stated concerning the Book of Mormon. The Best proof of Bible claims is the Jew. The Bible predicted that Israel would return and it has against all odds. So if predictions are literal and true, then it follows that what God had written about His chosen people is also as literal as it is presented.


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 Post subject: Re: Bible verse by verse
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:57 am 
God

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Genesis 11:10-31 We are now provided with a geneology that takes us to Abram, We are in introduced to Sarai and Lot. Ww are told that they onced lived in Ur of the Chaldees (a place which was once disputed if it ever existed). We may also note that the length of years of age (since the time of the Flood) begin to shorten. There are various thoughts on this. I feel that a damaged gene pool, disease and climate changes after the Flood are beginning to take a toll.

10 These [are] births of Shem: Shem [is] a son of an hundred years, and begetteth Arphaxad two years after the deluge.

11 And Shem liveth after his begetting Arphaxad five hundred years, and begetteth sons and daughters.

12 And Arphaxad hath lived five and thirty years, and begetteth Salah.

13 And Arphaxad liveth after his begetting Salah four hundred and three years, and begetteth sons and daughters.

14 And Salah hath lived thirty years, and begetteth Eber.

15 And Salah liveth after his begetting Eber four hundred and three years, and begetteth sons and daughters.

16 And Eber liveth four and thirty years, and begetteth Peleg.

17 And Eber liveth after his begetting Peleg four hundred and thirty years, and begetteth sons and daughters.

18 And Peleg liveth thirty years, and begetteth Reu.

19 And Peleg liveth after his begetting Reu two hundred and nine years, and begetteth sons and daughters.

20 And Reu liveth two and thirty years, and begetteth Serug.

21 And Reu liveth after his begetting Serug two hundred and seven years, and begetteth sons and daughters.

22 And Serug liveth thirty years, and begetteth Nahor.

23 And Serug liveth after his begetting Nahor two hundred years, and begetteth sons and daughters.

24 And Nahor liveth nine and twenty years, and begetteth Terah.

25 And Nahor liveth after his begetting Terah an hundred and nineteen years, and begetteth sons and daughters.

26 And Terah liveth seventy years, and begetteth Abram, Nahor, and Haran.

27 And these [are] births of Terah: Terah hath begotten Abram, Nahor, and Haran; and Haran hath begotten Lot;

28 and Haran dieth in the presence of Terah his father, in the land of his birth, in Ur of the Chaldees.

29 And Abram and Nahor take to themselves wives; the name of Abram's wife [is] Sarai, and the name of Nahor's wife [is] Milcah, daughter of Haran, father of Milcah, and father of Iscah.

30 And Sarai is barren -- she hath no child.

31 And Terah taketh Abram his son, and Lot, son of Haran, his son's son, and Sarai his daughter-in-law, wife of Abram his son, and they go out with them from Ur of the Chaldees, to go towards the land of Canaan; and they come unto Charan, and dwell there.

32 And the days of Terah are two hundred and five years, and Terah dieth in Charan.


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 Post subject: Re: Bible verse by verse
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:07 am 
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LittleNipper wrote:
There is no proof that it is not literal.


Balderdash. We see galaxies that are millions, nay, billions of light-years away. The speed of light is constant in a vacuum. Space is (effectively) a vacuum. Therefore that light took millions/billions of years to reach us. Therefore the universe is more than 6,000 years old. We could do the same thing with radioactive isotopes.

Quote:
The birth of Jesus Christ was predicted according to the Bible. The facts surrounding where and why and what were all answered from centuries to thousands of years before they transpired.


This may be true but has nothing to do with a literal reading of the Bible. Again, perhaps some parts of the Bible are meant to be read literally--although, you would have to define what you mean by "literal," how it is opposed to "figurative," and so on. But even if some parts of the Bible (e.g. Messianic prophecies) are or are meant to be taken literally, you have not demonstrated that all of the Bible is literally true word-for-word as written.

Quote:
Locations provided in the Bible are factual.


Some of them, yes.

Quote:
Many of the characters mentioned in the Bible have been discovered.


In the New Testament, yes, but I was under the impression we were discussing the Hebrew Bible. Sure there was a Nebuchadnezzar, nobody disputes that. But we're not talking about Nebuchadnezzar, we're talking about Noah.

Quote:
There is no refutable evidence that anything in the Bible is in error.


1) Define "error."
2) Explain the propagation of light/the existence of fossils/quantum physics

Quote:
I might add that the very same cannot be stated concerning the Book of Mormon.


I agree completely. The Bible is a work of demonstrably ancient origin which furthermore describes, at least in rough outline, real historical events, in much the same (mythologized-legendary) manner as the Iliad describes the real historical events surrounding the real historical Trojan war. The same cannot be said of the Book of Mormon.

Quote:
The Best proof of Bible claims is the Jew. The Bible predicted that Israel would return and it has against all odds. So if predictions are literal and true, then it follows that what God had written about His chosen people is also as literal as it is presented.


Again, just because some prophecies have come true, that does not mean that all prophecies will come true. Furthermore, prophecy is only one of the genres in the Bible. There is also history, poetry, song... I wonder, what is the "literal" meaning of poetry? Of song? What would a "literal" reading of the Song of Songs even look like?

You still haven't answered the basic question: what reason does the Bible give you to assume that it is meant to be interpreted literally? Where in the Bible does it say that you should read the Bible literally?

Finally, what Biblical manuscript tradition do you think is the "right" one? The Alexandrian or the Byzantine? If you follow the Byzantine, are you claiming that the Alexandrian is not meant to be taken literally? That it is in error? They cannot both be literally correct word-for-word.


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 Post subject: Re: Bible verse by verse
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:29 pm 
God

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Samantabhadra


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 Post subject: Re: Bible verse by verse
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 4:37 pm 
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LittleNipper wrote:
Samantabhadra, Samantabhadra, Samantabhadra,

Please consider the following website:

http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/08/archeology.htm
I know that there are some minor differences from the original transcripts and later copies. That said, the errors are very minor. We have the Dead Sea Scrolls and there is the proof that the text is exceptionally unchanged in over 2000 years. But only God can change your heart in this matter. All the proof in the world will not.

For probability of Christ fulfilling prophesy please see:

http://www.godonthe.net/evidence/messiah.htm


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 Post subject: Re: Bible verse by verse
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 6:56 pm 
God

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What about Psalms 82:6, Nipper? "Ye are gods and all of you are the children of the Most High." Give us your so-called "Christian" interpretation of that.


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 Post subject: Re: Bible verse by verse
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:11 pm 
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Genesis 12:1-20 Now God speaks to Abram and tells him to leave his homeland for a new place God will show him. God says that Abram would be the start of a great nation. God would bless him and make him famous. Those that bless this nation family would reap blessings; however, those that curse this nation would be cursed. This transpires when Abram is 75. Abram takes Sarai and his nephew Lot and everything Abram gained at Charan. They head to Canaan. God tells Abram that He gives the land of Canaan to Abram. Abram builds an alter to God and preaches in God's name. There is a famine and Abram goes to Egypt (a fore taste of things to come). Abraham is afraid that his wife is so beautiful that she will bring Egyptians to kill him to have her. So he says for Sarai to say that she is his sister (she is actually Abram's half sister, so Abram bent the truth). The aristocracy tells Pharoah about this lovely lady and he presents lots of gifts to Abram. Sarai is taken to Pharoah's palace to marry the Pharoah. As a result Pharoah and his house are plagued by God. Pharoah learns or figures out that Sarai is Abram's wife. Pharoah is most upset and has Abram, Sarai, and everything Abram has or had given to him sent away out of Egypt.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 And Jehovah saith unto Abram, `Go for thyself, from thy land, and from thy kindred, and from the house of thy father, unto the land which I shew thee.

2 And I make thee become a great nation, and bless thee, and make thy name great; and be thou a blessing.

3 And I bless those blessing thee, and him who is disesteeming thee I curse, and blessed in thee have been all families of the ground.'

4 And Abram goeth on, as Jehovah hath spoken unto him, and Lot goeth with him, and Abram [is] a son of five and seventy years in his going out from Charan.

5 And Abram taketh Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they have gained, and the persons that they have obtained in Charan; and they go out to go towards the land of Canaan; and they come in to the land of Canaan.

6 And Abram passeth over into the land, unto the place Shechem, unto the oak of Moreh; and the Canaanite [is] then in the land.

7 And Jehovah appeareth unto Abram, and saith, `To thy seed I give this land;' and he buildeth there an altar to Jehovah, who hath appeared unto him.

8 And he removeth from thence towards a mountain at the east of Beth-El, and stretcheth out the tent (Beth-El at the west, and Hai at the east), and he buildeth there an altar to Jehovah, and preacheth in the name of Jehovah.

9 And Abram journeyeth, going on and journeying towards the south.

10 And there is a famine in the land, and Abram goeth down towards Egypt to sojourn there, for the famine [is] grievous in the land;

11 and it cometh to pass as he hath drawn near to enter Egypt, that he saith unto Sarai his wife, `Lo, I pray thee, I have known that thou [art] a woman of beautiful appearance;

12 and it hath come to pass that the Egyptians see thee, and they have said, `This [is] his wife,' and they have slain me, and thee they keep alive:

13 say, I pray thee, thou [art] my sister, so that it is well with me because of thee, and my soul hath lived for thy sake.'

14 And it cometh to pass, at the entering of Abram into Egypt, that the Egyptians see the woman that she [is] exceeding fair;

15 and princes of Pharaoh see her, and praise her unto Pharaoh, and the woman is taken [to] Pharaoh's house;

16 and to Abram he hath done good because of her, and he hath sheep and oxen, and he-asses, and men-servants, and handmaids, and she-asses, and camels.

17 And Jehovah plagueth Pharaoh and his house -- great plagues -- for the matter of Sarai, Abram's wife.

18 And Pharaoh calleth for Abram, and saith, `What [is] this thou hast done to me? why hast thou not declared to me that she [is] thy wife?

19 Why hast thou said, She [is] my sister, and I take her to myself for a wife? and now, lo, thy wife, take and go.'

20 And Pharaoh chargeth men concerning him, and they send him away, and his wife, an all that he hath.


Last edited by LittleNipper on Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Bible verse by verse
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:17 pm 
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You know NIpper, I had a boss one time who had a fake pile of feces on his desk which was given to him as a gift, and it had an inscription written on it which stated: "If you can't dazzel them with brilliance, then baffle them with B.S.!


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 Post subject: Re: Bible verse by verse
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:40 pm 
God

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gdemetz wrote:
What about Psalms 82:6, Nipper? "Ye are gods and all of you are the children of the Most High." Give us your so-called "Christian" interpretation of that.

I have said, ye are gods,.... In the law, Exodus 21:6 or they were so by his appointment and commission; he constituted them judges and magistrates, invested them with such an office, by which they came to have this title; see Romans 13:1, and so our Lord interprets these words, that they were gods "to whom" the word of God came, which gave them a commission and authority to exercise their office, John 10:35, or rather "against whom" it came, pronouncing the sentence of death on them, as in Psalm 82:7, to which the reference is; declaring, that though they were gods by office, yet were mortal men, and should die.


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 Post subject: Re: Bible verse by verse
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:42 pm 
God

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gdemetz wrote:
You know NIpper, I had a boss one time who had a fake pile of feces on his desk which was given to him as a gift, and it had an inscription written on it which stated: "If you can't dazzel them with brilliance, then baffle them with B.S.!

Was your boss Mormon?


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 Post subject: Re: Bible verse by verse
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:57 pm 
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No Nipper, my boss was not Mormon. He was before my time. Nipper, that is a false man made interpretation of the true meaning of that scripture even from the olden times. You omitted the last part which clearly states that "and all of you are the children of the Most High." This is consistent with the true meaning and interpretation! He wouldn't write that all of you are acting like gods, and then add and all of you are the children of the Most High. That does not make good sense, and it is not sound doctrine. It is only a poor excuse to justify a false teaching. You also apparently did not read all the quote of early theologians concerning this!


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 Post subject: Re: Bible verse by verse
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:39 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
No Nipper, my boss was not Mormon. He was before my time. Nipper, that is a false man made interpretation of the true meaning of that scripture even from the olden times. You omitted the last part which clearly states that "and all of you are the children of the Most High." This is consistent with the true meaning and interpretation! He wouldn't write that all of you are acting like gods, and then add and all of you are the children of the Most High. That does not make good sense, and it is not sound doctrine. It is only a poor excuse to justify a false teaching. You also apparently did not read all the quote of early theologians concerning this!

We can become His children through Jesus but not without Christ. We are not His on our merit or some birthright.


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 Post subject: Re: Bible verse by verse
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:06 am 
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Genesis 13:1-11 So we find that Abram took his wife and nephew, plus all he had, and went back to the land God gave to him. And Abram was wealthy and had lots of cattle; however, this made it hard for pasturing, Lot had lots of cattle and the Canaanites also used the area to feed their flocks. This caused lots of arguments between the herders. So Abram and Lot parted on good terms. Lot headed to the very fertile plains of Sodom and Gomorrah and Zoar which he choose for himself.
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

1 And Abram goeth up from Egypt (he and his wife, and all that he hath, and Lot with him) towards the south;

2 and Abram [is] exceedingly wealthy in cattle, in silver, and in gold.

3 And he goeth on his journeyings from the south, even unto Bethel, unto the place where his tent had been at the commencement, between Bethel and Hai --

4 unto the place of the altar which he made there at the first, and there doth Abram preach in the name of Jehovah.

5 And also to Lot, who is going with Abram, there hath been sheep and oxen and tents;

6 and the land hath not suffered them to dwell together, for their substance hath been much, and they have not been able to dwell together;

7 and there is a strife between those feeding Abram's cattle and those feeding Lot's cattle; and the Canaanite and the Perizzite [are] then dwelling in the land.

8 And Abram saith unto Lot, `Let there not, I pray thee, be strife between me and thee, and between my shepherds and thy shepherds, for we [are] men -- brethren.

9 Is not all the land before thee? be parted, I pray thee, from me; if to the left, then I to the right; and if to the right, then I to the left.'

10 And Lot lifteth up his eyes, and seeth the whole circuit of the Jordan that it [is] all a watered country (before Jehovah's destroying Sodom and Gomorrah, as Jehovah's garden, as the land of Egypt,) in thy coming toward Zoar,

11 and Lot chooseth for himself the whole circuit of the Jordan; and Lot journeyeth from the east, and they are parted -- a man from his companion;


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 Post subject: Re: Bible verse by verse
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:06 pm 
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You are wrong again, Nipper, just like Albion! Hebrews 12:9 teaches that Heavenly Father is the Father of our spirits! Also, when Paul was speaking to the NON BELIEVING GREEKS on Mars Hill, he taught them that WE are His OFFSPRING!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Bible verse by verse
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:04 pm 
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Sweet TBM vs EVC thunderdome match for biblical supremecy.
Whose interpretation reigns supreme?

gdmetz vs littlenipper.

Two men enter, one man leaves!

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 Post subject: Re: Bible verse by verse
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 11:08 pm 
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Yea! You don't even have to be an expert in Greek to see that it's the same word that is used, meaning SON, and then the "Papa Joe" version wants to deliberately change it to fit their false beliefs! Then again, what else is new?!?


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