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 Post subject: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:26 pm 
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[prelude] You may skip this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5EUcYw96us
or, if You don't like him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95aBxOGHrrk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhujM7T1_fQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7bfudsfZjw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68p-uKBxC8g
[/prelude]


in another thread,
gdemetz
wrote:
Just because someone doesn't mention something doesn't mean that they don't know it.


OK. Somebody we all know DID mention something - which is disappeared:
Mark 9:4 wrote:
And there appeared unto them Elias with Mosesª: and they were talking with Jesus.
JOSEPH SMITH TRANSLATION
Mark 9:3
wrote:
John the Baptist was on the Mount of Transfiguration. (compare Mark 9:4)
And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses or in other words, John the Baptist and Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
What does this verse mean? Don't decide hurriedly!

American Heritage Dictionary of Idioms:
in other words = Putting it differently, usually more simply or explicitly.
Wiktionary:
in other words (conjunctive, idiomatic) = Stated or interpreted another way; Used to introduce an explanation, simplification, or clarification.

“I Have a Question,” Ensign, Apr 1983, 21–23:
Larry E. Dahl,
associate professor of Church history and doctrine,
Brigham Young University
wrote:
Moses, Elijah, John the Baptist, and perhaps others appeared to Peter, James, and John on the Mount of Transfiguration, where the “keys of the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 16:19) were conferred upon them.
Peter, James, and John saw Moses and Elijah (“Elias” is the Greek rendering of the Hebrew Elijah; see Luke 4:25–26; 1 Kgs. 17) talking with Christ.
In the Prophet’s inspired translation of Mark’s record, we learn that John the Baptist was also present on the Mount of Transfiguration. JST, Mark 9:3 reads:
“And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses, or in other words, John the Baptist and Moses; and they were talking with Jesus.”

Robert J. Matthews, who has done extensive work with the Joseph Smith translation of the Bible comments upon this verse:
“Considerable discussion has been stimulated by this comment, since the presence of the Baptist at the Mount has never before been suggested. Furthermore, it is certain that Elijah the Prophet was present at the Mount, and the term Elias (the Greek form the Hebrew name Elijah) has generally been understood to have reference to him. For this reason many have wondered if this passage has somehow been printed erroneously. However, NT 2, folio 2, page 24, reads exactly as the printed Inspired Version for this passage. Likewise, the Bernhisel copy, page 74, reads with precisely the same wording, thus corroborating the present text of the printed Inspired Version. This discussion is not intended to be a doctrinal explanation of the matter, but simply a presentation of evidence that the published account gives the text in the original manuscript. …
“There can be no mistake that the Elias at the Mount of Transfiguration was Elijah the prophet. What role John the Baptist might have had there is not known.” (Joseph Smith’s Translation of the Bible, Provo: BYU Press, 1975, pp. 180, 367.)

Elder Bruce R. McConkie gives us the following explanation about John the Baptist being on the Mount of Transfiguration:
It is not to be understand that John the Baptist was the Elias who appeared with Moses to confer keys and authority upon those who then held the Melchizedek Priesthood, which higher priesthood already embraced and included all of the authority and power John had held and exercised during his ministry. Rather, for some reason that remains unknown—because of the partial record of the proceedings—John played some other part in the glorious manifestations then vouchsafed to mortals. Perhaps he was there, as the last legal administrator under the Old Covenant, to symbolize that the law was fulfilled and all old things were done away, thus contrasting his position with that of Peter, James, and John who were then becoming the first legal administrators of the New Kingdom.” (Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1965, 1:404.)

And the corollary:
The Elias on the Mount of Transfiguration, then, was Elijah, although John the Baptist was also present.
...
Many of our questions about the Mount of Transfiguration might be answered if we had a complete record.
...
When we are privileged to receive the full account, we may find that several other personages, in addition to those thus far mentioned, were present, and that much more was said and done than we currently know about. In the meantime, we can be anxiously engaged in stretching our minds toward understanding and our souls in worthy application of that which we have already received.


I Have a Question, Ensign July 1999
Questions of general interest answered for guidance, not as official statements of Church policy
How can Elias, who appeared with Moses on the Mount of Transfiguration, be identified as both the Old Testament prophet Elijah (see Matt. 17:3, footnote b) and as John the Baptist (see JST, Mark 9:3, footnote a)?
Keith W. Perkins,
professor of Church history and doctrine,
Brigham Young University
wrote:
The term Elias, in addition to being the actual name of an Old Testament prophet, is used several different ways in the scriptures. Familiarity with the “doctrine of Elias” and with how the word Elias is used in the scriptures is essential to understanding references to Elias.
...some hooey...
Without latter-day knowledge of the doctrine of Elias, we would be in darkness regarding the meaning of the word Elias and the missions of individuals referred to as Elias. Through revelation, the “spirit of Elias” was revealed to the Prophet Joseph Smith and, in his words, “I know it is true” (Teachings, 337).


Our New Light on Jesus’ Mortal Life and Teachings, Ensign Jan 1995
Jay M. Todd
Managing Editor
wrote:
More than is recorded in the KJV occurred at Jesus’ transfiguration.
- More took place on the mount than is written in the KJV.
- On the way down the mountain, Peter, James, and John asked Jesus about that which was confusing to them—the different Eliases, the timing of their works, and their prophesied comings.
...
Jesus gave much information to his disciples on the Mount of Olives that is unrecorded in the KJV.
...for centuries the sequencing of those items has caused gospel students to raise questions. Thus, it is not surprising that the Lord would reveal to his great latter-day restorer, Joseph Smith, clear and additional information concerning his Mount of Olive teachings. But the text and new information given to the Prophet Joseph Smith is so extensive, so corrective to the existing KJV that there is insufficient space here to explore those dimensions.
...
In addition to Moses and Elijah, John the Baptist also came to Jesus when he was transfigured before Peter, James, and John.


You see, the meaning of the expression "in other words" is not the same as in the standard US, GB or AU English.

Last but not least:
- Scriptures
-- Study Helps
--- Bible Dictionary
wrote:
The curious wording of JST Mark 9:3 does not imply that the Elias at the Transfiguration was John the Baptist, but that in addition to Elijah the prophet, John the Baptist was present.
Curious wording?
The "in other words" was one of JS' pet phrase.
He used it
- in D&C 22 times
- in Book of Mormon 12 times
- in JST 4 times
The KJV doesn't use it.

If You make a scripture search (http://www.lds.org/scriptures/search?la ... r+words%22), there are only 3 match in JST, You don't get JST Mark 9:3

It is esoteric, available on only for adepts...
- the "Scriptures / Joseph Smith Translation" item doesn't list it
- there is no link assigned to the "ª" note index in Mark 9:4
- all the JST Mark 9:3 links are pointing to Mark 9:4

Fortunately, - until now - the hands of the Correlation Committee didn't reach some of the foreign versions.
In German
Heiligen Schriften
Auszüge Aus Der Joseph-Smith-Übersetzung Der Bibel
wrote:
Markus 9:3
JSÜ (vergleiche Markus 9:4)
(Johannes der Täufer war auf dem Berg der Verklärung.)
3 Und da erschien ihnen Elias mit Mose oder, mit anderen Worten, Johannes der Täufer und Mose; und sie redeten mit Jesus.

In Russian
Священные Писания
- Выдержки из Перевода Библии, выполненного Джозефом Смитом
wrote:
ПДжС, от Марка 9:3 (сравните от Марка 9:4)
(Иоанн Креститель был на горе Преображения.)
3 И явился им Елияс с Моисеем, – то есть, другими словами, Иоанн Креститель и Моисей, – и беседовали с Иисусом.

In some language - for example Dutch - the JST is missing as a whole.


Do You want to be adepts?
Don't begin the scripture reading from relevant version : http://www.lds.org/scriptures

Use http://www.classic.scriptures.lds.org instead - before its doom.

Only a few year - or month, or minute - and we will be in darkness, without latter-day knowledge of the doctrine of Elias.

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- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:10 am 
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I would only assume it is because the KJV bible is not used outside of English speaking areas. Non-native speakers who do speak and read English very well have trouble understanding the English of the KJV.

Non-KJV Bibles, in any language, don't have the KJV oddness of translating the name Elijah/Elias. And I would imagine that converts from Christian religions would think it silly to claim it was John the Baptist at the Mount of Transfiguration,when the scriptures clearly state it was the Prophet Elijah, who had been dead a long time. John the Baptist was at that time, alive and well, and not recorded as being present.

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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:31 am 
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madeleine wrote:
I would only assume it is because the KJV bible is not used outside of English speaking areas. Non-native speakers who do speak and read English very well have trouble understanding the English of the KJV.
Non-KJV English bibles - which use only the name Elijah - are not used by Mormons...

madeleine wrote:
And I would imagine that converts from Christian religions would think ... anything ...
Typical converts do not know deeply their own bible, and do not know the mormon scriptures, either.

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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:24 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 12:54 am 
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I am glad to be mentioned among all these other distinguished and educated men! So, the fact that I am not believed puts me in good company indeed! Some people here seem to know more than all of us, including the prophets! One might think that they were actually there on the mount and really know who was there!


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 3:36 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
I am glad to be mentioned among all these other distinguished and educated men! So, the fact that I am not believed puts me in good company indeed! Some people here seem to know more than all of us, including the prophets! One might think that they were actually there on the mount and really know who was there!


I go by the witness of the Evangelists.

I suppose some people prefer what false prophets have made up nearly 2000 years later.

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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 7:39 pm 
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Evangelists? Aren't they the same guys who say that all you have to do is make a profession of faith and no matter what you do, you will be saved forever! I can see why you guys love that non Biblical teaching! However, you can't have it both ways about the Elias topic. Either you must believe that Joseph Smith thought that Elias was only John the Baptist, or you must believe that he thought there were more Elias(s). I say that he knew there were more Elias(s). Otherwise why wouldn't he state that Elijah and John the Baptist came back in D&C 110?!?


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 8:21 pm 
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madeleine wrote:
I would only assume it is because the KJV bible is not used outside of English speaking areas. Non-native speakers who do speak and read English very well have trouble understanding the English of the KJV.

Non-KJV Bibles, in any language, don't have the KJV oddness of translating the name Elijah/Elias. And I would imagine that converts from Christian religions would think it silly to claim it was John the Baptist at the Mount of Transfiguration,when the scriptures clearly state it was the Prophet Elijah, who had been dead a long time. John the Baptist was at that time, alive and well, and not recorded as being present.

Wasn't John the Baptist's head already separated from his body and served on a platter (Mark 6/Matthew 14) by the time the Mount of Transfiguration thing happened (Mark 9/Matthew 17), or is Mark 6/Matthew 14 not chronological?

-JV


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 8:36 pm 
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You're correct, he obviously appeared there as a spirit, and, of course, did not take place in the ordinance since he neither had a body, the higher priesthood, or the keys of sealing power. Joseph Smith was aware that he was referred to as Elias by Christ, and he was also aware that the term "Elias" could be applied to others, and the namesake appeared to Joseph Smith in the Kirtland temple on April 3, 1836.


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 9:41 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
Evangelists? Aren't they the same guys who say that all you have to do is make a profession of faith and no matter what you do, you will be saved forever! I can see why you guys love that non Biblical teaching! However, you can't have it both ways about the Elias topic. Either you must believe that Joseph Smith thought that Elias was only John the Baptist, or you must believe that he thought there were more Elias(s). I say that he knew there were more Elias(s). Otherwise why wouldn't he state that Elijah and John the Baptist came back in D&C 110?!?


I forget sometimes Mormons aren't schooled in Christian knowledge. Evangelists: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Evangelists
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel#Etymology

I don't think we need to go over the KJV translation of Elijah/Elias, again. Believe what you will. I believe Jesus when he said, John the Baptist fulfills the prophecy of Elijah.

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Last edited by madeleine on Wed May 02, 2012 9:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 9:43 pm 
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Juggler Vain wrote:
madeleine wrote:
I would only assume it is because the KJV bible is not used outside of English speaking areas. Non-native speakers who do speak and read English very well have trouble understanding the English of the KJV.

Non-KJV Bibles, in any language, don't have the KJV oddness of translating the name Elijah/Elias. And I would imagine that converts from Christian religions would think it silly to claim it was John the Baptist at the Mount of Transfiguration,when the scriptures clearly state it was the Prophet Elijah, who had been dead a long time. John the Baptist was at that time, alive and well, and not recorded as being present.

Wasn't John the Baptist's head already separated from his body and served on a platter (Mark 6/Matthew 14) by the time the Mount of Transfiguration thing happened (Mark 9/Matthew 17), or is Mark 6/Matthew 14 not chronological?

-JV


You are correct, not alive and well. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 9:49 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
You're correct, he obviously appeared there as a spirit, and, of course, did not take place in the ordinance since he neither had a body, the higher priesthood, or the keys of sealing power. Joseph Smith was aware that he was referred to as Elias by Christ, and he was also aware that the term "Elias" could be applied to others, and the namesake appeared to Joseph Smith in the Kirtland temple on April 3, 1836.


I have three question for You:
1. Do You speak any language beyond English?
(If Your answer were "yes", then I would ask You please read any bible in that language You speak/know)
2. (If Your answer was "no" to the 1st question, skip this) Did You read any bible which non-english and not KJV?
3. (I am sorry, very sorry, this question may send me to telestial) Are You really that stupid?
Don't You really understand, that in bibles written in different languages there is no Elias? Moreover, there are no other, many Eliases? That bibles written in different languages can use a different name?
Are You really that stupid? Or do You simply play it to entertain us?

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In the Kirtland temple on April 3, 1836 no namesake appeared. The Elias who appeared was one - of more - translation errors of KJV.

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I've checked the meaning of the word aware. I wasn't certain...
You know, my native is not English, even I know (on some low level, as anybody can adjudge here) this language.
American Heritage Dictionary : aware adj. = having knowledge or cognizance
In the 20th century, uses of aware either alone or attributively (before a noun) have become more common in the generalized meanings 'well-informed' and 'alert to circumstances'
Please don't use the word aware and the name Joseph Smith in the same sentence. (Or please use didn't or wasn't before that word...)

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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 9:54 pm 
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I don't think it is stupidity. Sometimes I think obstinacy, but even then, I just think: they can't hear.

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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 10:03 pm 
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English:
King James Version
Romans 11:8
wrote:
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 5:54 pm 
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It should be obvious to all you critics that when Jesus referred to John as Elias that this name had MORE meaning than just a name! It was a name that represented something! You critics like Shulem, Drifting, etc., are all the same! You spend hours on a Mormon discussion site when you don't even believe in Mormonism? Why? In my honest opinion, it is because you are filled with a Satanic inspired spirit of contention which constantly inspires you to attack, attack, attack, as if you didn't have anything else constructive better to do! In time you will all be proved wrong! The critics like you constantly criticized the Book of Mormon as being taken from the Spalding manuscripts for more than a century, until those manuscripts were discovered and shut them up!!! The same thing will happen to you in time! You don 't believe in Mormonism, so what do you believe in? Nothing? Or, perhaps you believe in the fairy tale of the virgin birth, or the fairy tale of just walking down the isle and making a profession of faith and then you will be saved forever and can do anything you want? Or, perhaps you believe in the fairy tale 3 in 1 god who is everywhere, but no where in particular? Just what the heck do you believe in besides attacking something which is very obvious to me that you know very little about?! You people are so spiritually blind that even when the scriptures tell you plainly that "ye are gods," you still can't seem to figure out what that means!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2012 9:47 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
It should be obvious to all you critics that when Jesus referred to John as Elias that this name had MORE meaning than just a name! It was a name that represented something!

In the German bible Jesus referred to Johannes der Täufer (=John) as ELIA.
- Has ELIA MORE meaning than just a name? Does it represent something?

In the Hungarian bible Jesus referred to Keresztelő János (=John) as ILLÉS.
- Has ILLÉS MORE meaning than just a name? Does it represent something?

In the Croatian bible Jesus referred to Ivan Krstitelj (=John) as ILIJA.
- Has ILIJA MORE meaning than just a name? Does it represent something?

In the Swahili bible Jesus referred to Yohane mbatizaji (=)John as ELIYA.
- Has ELIYA MORE meaning than just a name? Does it represent something?

In the Maori bible Jesus referred to Hoani Kaiiriiri (=)John as IRAIA.
- Has IRAIA MORE meaning than just a name? Does it represent something?

In the Korean bible Jesus referred to 세례 요한 (=John) as 엘리야가.
- Has 엘리야가 MORE meaning than just a name? Does it represent something?


It is obvious to all us critics that You don't speak any language other than English and didn't read any bible other than KJV.


Image

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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 12:32 am 
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You still don't get it do you? Was John the Baptist's name either Elias of Elijah? No, it was not either one! Therefore, that name carried another meaning with it! So, if you say that it was Elijah (Elias in Greek) with Moses at the mount of Transfiguration, then that's OK. However, if you try to say that John was Elijah or Elias, then that is wrong. He came as an "Elias," or he came in the spirit of "Elias," but he was not Elias, nor was he Elijah. He was John the Baptist.


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:11 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
You still don't get it do you? Was John the Baptist's name either Elias of Elijah? No, it was not either one! Therefore, that name carried another meaning with it!

Was John the Baptist's name
- Johannes der Täufer ?
- Keresztelő János ?
- Ivan Krstitelj ?
- Yohane mbatizaji ?
- Hoani Kaiiriiri ?
- 세례 요한 ?

No, it was John the Baptist, in English, the only language You know!

Therefore, that name:
- ELIA
- ILLÉS
- ILIJA
- ELIYA
- IRAIA
- 엘리야가
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . carried another meaning with it!


**************************************************************
FYI
A name is a word or term used for identification.
A personal name identifies a specific unique and identifiable individual person.
The use of personal names is not unique to humans. Dolphins also use symbolic names, as has been shown by recent research. Individual dolphins have distinctive whistles, to which they will respond even when there is no other information to clarify which dolphin is being referred to.
Caution must be exercised when translating, for there are ways that one language may prefer one type of name over another.



**************************************************************
Elias (/ɨˈlaɪ.əs/) is the Latin transliteration of the Greek name Ἠλίας, which in turn is the Hellenized form of the Hebrew: אליהו, Eliyahu, meaning "Yahweh is my God". Another form of Eliyahu in English is Elijah.

The name belonged most notably to Elijah (/ɨˈlaɪdʒə/), the Hebrew prophet. In the King James Version of the Bible, "Elias" is used in the New Testament as the English translation of the Greek name for this prophet.

Variants
Elia English, Dutch, Italian
Elías Icelandic
Eelis Finnish
Éliás Hungarian
Elías Spanish
Eliáš Czech
Elias (Ἠλίας) Koine Greek
Elias Portuguese
Elias (الیاس) Persian
Eliasz Polish
Élie French
Elijah English, Hebrew
Elijáš Czech
Elis Swedish
Eliyahu (אליהו) Hebrew
Eliyyahu (אֵ֣לִיָּ֔הוּ) Biblical Hebrew, Hebrew
Eljas Finnish
Elliot English
Elliott English
Ellis English
Helias Ecclesiastical Latin
Ilia (Илия) Bulgarian, Church Slavonic, Russian
Ilias (Ηλίας) Modern Greek
Ilie Romanian
Illès Algerian
Ilija (Илија) Croatian, Macedonian, Serbian
Iliya (Илия) Bulgarian
Iliyās (إلياس) Arabic
Illès Hungarian
Illya (Ілля) Ukrainian
Ilya (Илья) Russian
İlyas Turkish
Líggjas Faroese
Elias or Elyas Philippines



**************************************************************
You still don't get it do you?

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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:14 am 
God

Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:59 am
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It's nice that you know a lot of languages, but you still need to improve in your English comprehension.


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:17 am 
tired, less active investigator
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Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:07 am
Posts: 6043
Location: Hungary
gdemetz wrote:
It's nice that you know a lot of languages, but you still need to improve in your English comprehension.



What do Winnie the Pooh and John the Baptist have in common?
They have the same middle name.

Unfortunately, this can not be translated to Hungarian.

For us, Winnie the Pooh is Micimackó, John the Baptist is Keresztelő János.

You know (or You don't know, You should not) there are different languages.
Most of them don't use middle name.


Edited to add:
I am mighty pleased with my English comprehension.

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- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco
- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei


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 Post subject: Re: Elias, or in other words - I've changed the title...
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 1:27 am 
God

Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:59 am
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I have to admit that your knowledge of so many languages amazes me. I envy that some. I only speak English, and a little Cebuano.


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