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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:44 pm 
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Franktalk wrote:
Drifting wrote:
Sorry, but there are 15 Apostles in the Mormon Church.
And if you read the Book of Mormon at the part where Christ appears to the Nephites you will read about him calling 12 Apostles in America whilst He still had 12 Apostles walking around the Middle East. 12 + 12 = 24....


That twenty four rings a bell.

Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.


Not that I believe you'll see the relevance, but 12 tribes of Israel plus 12 Apostles = 24.


See also Rev 21:12-14

and

Eph 2:19-22

Apostles and prophets = the twelve and the OT prophets, with Jesus as the capstone. There it is, described as built, complete and growing. Twelve Apostles, who are the foundation of Christ's Church. This foundation, comprised of men who Jesus hand picked, who followed Him, lived with Him, ate with Him, knew Him. Mormons act like it crumbled, somehow, and had to be built all over again.

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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:08 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Hello drifting? Have you not read in the scriptures where God states not to counsel Him? That is why Christ had no counselors. That changed later.


Can you point to where it changed?
Top tip: don't say immediately after He died because that is when he called the additional 12 in America. Note it was 12, not 12 with an additional 3.

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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:33 am 
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madeleine wrote:

Not that I believe you'll see the relevance, but 12 tribes of Israel plus 12 Apostles = 24.


But who are the twenty four elders? Surely not the twelve sons of Jacob. Maybe Joseph but not the others. So where are the other twelve?


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:39 am 
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Franktalk wrote:
madeleine wrote:

Not that I believe you'll see the relevance, but 12 tribes of Israel plus 12 Apostles = 24.


But who are the twenty four elders? Surely not the twelve sons of Jacob. Maybe Joseph but not the others. So where are the other twelve?



The vision is that of heaven, the Kingdom of God, and a description of heavenly worship. Gathered around the throne of God are God's People, crowned. (2 Tim 4:8) Symbolically represented by the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve Apostles.

As a continued example of the symbolism, there are the are four creatures (verse 7); a lion, calf, human and eagle. These represent what is strongest, noblest, wisest and swiftest in creation. These are given the six wings of the seraphim (symbolically representing angels).

All of creation are worshipping God (verses 8-11).

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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:03 am 
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Yea, drifting, Christ didn't need counselors in the Americas also, and besides , there is only one quorum of twelve apostles.


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:17 am 
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Drifting wrote:
gdemetz wrote:
Hello drifting? Have you not read in the scriptures where God states not to counsel Him? That is why Christ had no counselors. That changed later.


Can you point to where it changed?
Top tip: don't say immediately after He died because that is when he called the additional 12 in America. Note it was 12, not 12 with an additional 3.


Bump for gdemetz.

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Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:13 pm 
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Albion, you and Corpse (?) are both incorrect. The BIBLE states that "all the sons" of God shouted for joy when the foundations of the earth were being laid! The BIBLE also states that Heavenly Father is the Father of our spirits and also states that we are His "offspring." The BIBLE also states that Christ is the firstborn of all those spirits!


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:26 am 
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gdemetz, I am not sure just what your last post is in answer to...I am equally puzzled by "Corpse".

I think Mormons have a different interpretation of the word "church" . I think Mormons see it as an institution, an organization. The original Greek word simply means the "body of believers" or more properly "the called out ones". I think, too, that if you accept Smith's premise of a total collapse of Christ's church, a falling away of all believers, then it is easy for him to sell you on the idea that what he suggests is the right replacement or "restoration" in Mormon terms. Of course, Chrstianity and scholars reject the idea of a total apostasy as claimed by Smith. It is preposterous in the extreme to even contemplate that God would spend so much time and effort leading up to the pinnacle point of Christ's appearing and atonement only to have it all collapse in a few short years. Jesuis said that where to or three are gathered in my name there I am also....all it took for his church to survive was that one or two and of course, the body of believers has survived to this day. I know it is hard for you to accept, but one of the great lies of Mormonism is the lie of a total apostasy. As I said before, I agree that various churches in the early days were beset by apostasy, just as the Mormon Church is today if we are to believe Marlin Jensen (members leaving in droves, I think he said) but it is a gross assumption to conclude by this a total apostasy of Christ's church...just as it would be to assume by Jensen's admission that the Mormon Church is on the point of total collapse

But wait, you say...where are your prophets and apostles? Well, the Law and the Prophets were fulfilled in Christ...their purpose done in the very appearance of Christ who culminated and proclaims all that they said in his very self. Please see my other post on the transfiguration. I believe apostles, real apostles who had a personal eye-witness experience with Jesus, are indeed the foundation of the Church, Jesus being the chief cornerstone. Their witness has not gone away...it is still there as a foundation...just as the founding fathers of the US are still there as a foundation.....just as the foundation of the Mormon Church office building in Salt Lake City is still there out of sight holding up the entire building.


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 11:45 am 
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Gosh, I forget a main point. Peter's comment in Acts 3 reads thus: " Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, and that he send the Christ, who has been appointed for you - even Jesus. He must remain in Heaven until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets." NIV Acts 3:20-21.

A key word in these verses is the word "refreshing"...believers will experience periods of refreshing from the Lord. This is connected to the next verse relating to God restoring everything he promised his prophets. Matthew 17 talks of a restitution of all things by Elijah (who has come by now) in preparation for the first coming of Christ. The restoration mentioned here is the restoration of the whole universe to its original and intended perfection...remember not only did man fall but all of creation also. This will take place when Christ comes again. Jesus spoke of this same regeneration in Matt. 19: 23 terming it a "renewal of all things"....the new heaven the new earth.


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2012 10:40 pm 
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Albion, you are really mixed up. First of all, it is not just a refresing! It is the RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS!!! Secondly, if there were no need for prophets after Christ's ministry, then why does in call me who ministered after Christ in the NT, PROPHETS?!?!? Thirdly, this is not a debatable point that the SAINTS were overcome, whether you accept it or not, the scriptures clearly and plainly state that the beast made war with the saints AND OVERCAME THEM for 42 months (1260 years - see Clarke's Commentary)! That is what necessitated the RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS!!!!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 7:16 am 
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Indeed, even today people are inspired by the Holy Spirit in many ways....but in terms of the prophets of old, they are fulfilled, swallowed up in Christ who was the very purpose of their role. Why do Christians need prophets when they have Christ Jesus who has not left us comfortless but has provided the Holy Spirit as guide and counselor? You have a complete book of so-called "prophecies" and "revelations" from Joseph Smith. The man could do virtually nothing without putting a "thus saith the Lord" to it...does it not bother you that for some reason your so called prophets since have added essentially nothing? I think this alone points to Smith as the fraud that he was.


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 07, 2012 2:05 pm 
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Albion wrote:
Indeed, even today people are inspired by the Holy Spirit in many ways....but in terms of the prophets of old, they are fulfilled, swallowed up in Christ who was the very purpose of their role. Why do Christians need prophets when they have Christ Jesus who has not left us comfortless but has provided the Holy Spirit as guide and counselor? You have a complete book of so-called "prophecies" and "revelations" from Joseph Smith. The man could do virtually nothing without putting a "thus saith the Lord" to it...does it not bother you that for some reason your so called prophets since have added essentially nothing? I think this alone points to Smith as the fraud that he was.


Hi Albion,

First of all, the purpose of the Prophets was not only or always to teach of Christ who was to come. Now, they did speak of repentence in order to keep the wrath of God from falling upon the peoples; which often (but not always) caused the people to repent; thus avoiding God's wrath. Moses' main purpose was to free God's children as the slaves of the Egyptians and to establish the Law of Moses. Where Jesus teaches that all the law and prophets have been fulfilled in Him, Jesus is speaking about the law and prophets which pertained to His coming. There are other prophecies of the end times and Jesus' return which have not yet been fulfilled.

Indeed, there were several Prophets we are aware of who lived AFTER Jesus' death and Resurrection who are named in the NT:

*Simeon (Niger) in Acts 13:1
*Lucius in Acts 13:1
*Manaen in Acts 13:1
*Judas in Acts 15:32
*Silas in Acts 15:32
*Agabus in Acts 21:10
*John the Beloved - the Book of Revelation
*Two un-named prophets who are to come in the last days as
prophesied by John in the Book of Revelation
*"Eilias (Elijah) truly shall first come and restore all things." Jesus'
words
(before Christ returns)
*And this important message from Acts 2:17

"And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:"

Therefore, I believe it is a misreprentation of the purpose of the Holy Spirit to be the one who will guide us; thus negating the need for any additional Prophets for the world. His purpose is to guide us as individuals. And part of that guidance is to give individuals prophosies for their own benefit, as well as the benefit of their families and loved ones. He can also give prophesy to inspired religious leaders who are NOT Prophets. God has not stopped using Prophets to communicate with mankind.

Also, we can see the the Holy Spirit was busy in the OT as well. It is just that the "gift" of the Holy Spirit was not given to each believer until after Christ's Ascension. Here are some passages where you will see that the Holy Spirit is specifically mentioned:

Psa 51:11, Isa 63:11, Dan 4:8-9, Dan 4:18, Dan 5:11.

Here you will find a link of the history of the Prophets of the OT:
http://www.christianityoasis.com/DailyB ... bakkuk.htm

The recap is 33 OT Prophets; and 13 NT prophets as I question whether Barnabas (who was an Apostle) was also a Prophet. I need to research this. If he also did Prophesy, than there were 14 Prophets in the New Testament. The ones missing from the list are Jesus, the return of Elias (Elijah) and the two un-named prophets of the book of Revelation. Remember, our sons and daughters who will prophesy in the last days are obviously not included in this list.

Please note that if you add the years these men served as Prophets, you will see that there were great periods of time when God did not have prophets on the earth. Therefore to make a claim that just because Presidents of the LDS Church have not made prophecies which affect all of mankind since the days of Joseph Smith leads you to a false conclusion. In fact periodically various of the LDS Prophets HAVE received revelations; but they pertained only to certain small groups of people which were not meant for the entire world.

Sadly, it appears to me that whoever has been teaching you about prophets has overlooked a great deal of what the Bible teaches about God's Holy Prophets. In fact, in doing so, they have thrown out a great deal of the Bible's teachings.

Blessings,

jo


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:27 pm 
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Great post again Jo! I hope that that was enough prophets for Albion to realize that he was wrong yet again, by a long shot.


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 11:40 pm 
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Drifting wrote:
gdemetz wrote:
Hello drifting? Have you not read in the scriptures where God states not to counsel Him? That is why Christ had no counselors. That changed later.


Can you point to where it changed?
Top tip: don't say immediately after He died because that is when he called the additional 12 in America. Note it was 12, not 12 with an additional 3.

Bump for gdemetz.



Double bump...

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Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 10:51 pm 
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The twelve in the Americas were not the quorum of the twelve, Drifting. Jesus took Peter, James, and John with Him to the mount of transfiguration to have bestowed upon them, as a first presidency, the keys of the sealing power. We know that other apostles were called at various times, including the apostle Paul, but it is hard to calculate exactly how many made up the quorum including the first presidency since the records are scarce and the accurate details of deaths and replacements are not available.


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:40 pm 
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Jo, what about the statement in my post did you not understand? I wrote "...even today people are inspired by the Holy Spirit in many ways...but IN TERMS OF THE PROPHETS OF OLD they are fulfilled, swallowed up in Christ who was the very purpose of their role."

Included under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is the gift of prophesy and some believers no doubt have it. You mention various people referred to as prophets in the NT. None of these filled roles like the prophets of old...none were leaders of substance within Christ's church...none are mentioned except in passing and none even meet the false criteria of Mormon prophets. I defend, too, my assertion that the whole purpose of prophets, together with the Law, was part of the overall purpose in God's plan to prepare a special people apart from all others. Even at the time of Samuel there were those mentioned at prophets... Gad was one who only gets a passing mention and even Saul was known to prophesy....but neither ranked with Samuel just as none of those you mention rank with him or any of the other great prophets.

Christ fulfilled the Law and the Prophets, clearly demonstrated on the Mount of Transfiguration, and we have not only the Holy Spirit as guide and comforter but Jesus himself who makes intercession on behalf of believers as our High Priest at the right hand of God the Father. Who else do we need? Who else can compare.


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2012 9:08 pm 
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Albion, when you quot yourself, I stopped taking that seriously! You are arguing again with what the Bible states in clear plain English. It may not fit your false Evangelical beliefs, but that does not change the fact that the NT correctly refers to some who ministered after Christ as prophets. Furthermore, if there were no prophets and apostles later, the there would have been no restitution of ALL things as the Bible also clearly has testified of!


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:03 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
The twelve in the Americas were not the quorum of the twelve, Drifting.


CFR

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"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:07 am 
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Are you answering for Jo now, gedemtz? But since you have decided to respond at least I'll pose a question for you. Jo mentioned several people mentioned in the NT as prophets. I repeat that none filled any kind of role similar to the great prophets of the OT so what exactly was their role in Christ's church? Were they great leaders who operated in addition to the apostles giving directives for the church as a whole, or were they just individuals with the spiritual gift of prophesy? Can you give any of their prophecies, subject etc.?


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:55 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
The twelve in the Americas were not the quorum of the twelve, Drifting. Jesus took Peter, James, and John with Him to the mount of transfiguration to have bestowed upon them, as a first presidency, the keys of the sealing power. We know that other apostles were called at various times, including the apostle Paul, but it is hard to calculate exactly how many made up the quorum including the first presidency since the records are scarce and the accurate details of deaths and replacements are not available.


Where does the bible state they were ordained a first presidency?

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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:25 pm 
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Albion, the NT is full of prophets and apostles as I have told you before, and I have even mentioned some of those prophesies to you! Remember how the apostle Peter PROPHESIED of the "restitution of all things.? Remember how Paul PROPHESIED that Christ would not come until there was a "great falling away first"? There are so many PROPHESIES by true PROPHETS in the NT, Albion. Do you remember the Biblical test for a true prophet, Albion?

Steelhead, that is what we call them today.


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