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 Post subject: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 8:28 pm 
Star A

Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:19 pm
Posts: 82
I was just reading this.
Quote:
Intelligence, however defined, is not created or made (D&C 93:29); it is coeternal with God (TPJS, pp. 353-54). Some LDS leaders have interpreted this to mean that intelligent beings—called intelligences—existed before and after they were given spirit bodies in the premortal existence. Others have interpreted it to mean that intelligent beings were organized as spirits out of eternal intelligent matter, that they did not exist as individuals before they were organized as spirit beings in the premortal existence (Abr. 3:22; JD 7:57; 2:124)

But D&C 93:29 says that "Man was also in the beginning with God."

Wouldn't that mean that we were all individuals, who always existed as individuals?

Verse 23 says "Ye were also in the beginning with the Father," and wouldn't that mean we were there as individuals?

How can these verses be interpreted to mean "that intelligent beings were organized as spirits out of eternal intelligent matter," and "did not exist as individuals before they were organized as spirit beings in the premortal existence"?


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:53 pm 
God
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Quote:
Wouldn't that mean that we were all individuals, who always existed as individuals?


Not necessarily. The doctrine itself (D&C Institute Manual on 93:29) has it as a combination of intelligence and spirit.

Quote:
Verse 23 says "Ye were also in the beginning with the Father," and wouldn't that mean we were there as individuals


Sure. But beginning of what? The creation of the earth? The Universe? The Multiverse?

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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:31 pm 
Star A

Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:19 pm
Posts: 82
bcspace wrote:
Quote:
Wouldn't that mean that we were all individuals, who always existed as individuals?


Not necessarily. The doctrine itself (D&C Institute Manual on 93:29) has it as a combination of intelligence and spirit.

Quote:
Verse 23 says "Ye were also in the beginning with the Father," and wouldn't that mean we were there as individuals


Sure. But beginning of what? The creation of the earth? The Universe? The Multiverse?

Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:27 am 
Star A

Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 12:19 pm
Posts: 82
bcspace wrote:
Quote:
Wouldn't that mean that we were all individuals, who always existed as individuals?


Not necessarily. The doctrine itself (D&C Institute Manual on 93:29) has it as a combination of intelligence and spirit.

Quote:
Verse 23 says "Ye were also in the beginning with the Father," and wouldn't that mean we were there as individuals


Sure. But beginning of what? The creation of the earth? The Universe? The Multiverse?

What about Abraham 3:18-19?

Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning; they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal. And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am amore intelligent than they all.

Isn't that saying that we always existed as individuals?


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:38 am 
God
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Only Jesus had a premortal existence.
Quote:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.
4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
John 1: 1-5 We are not gods, we are God's. He sent Jesus so that our misunderstandings about Him would be straightened out.

That is what I believe, and I am sticking to it. :razz:

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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 6:42 pm 
CTR A

Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2010 7:44 am
Posts: 137
inquiringmind wrote:
I was just reading this.
Quote:
Intelligence, however defined, is not created or made (D&C 93:29); it is coeternal with God (TPJS, pp. 353-54). Some LDS leaders have interpreted this to mean that intelligent beings—called intelligences—existed before and after they were given spirit bodies in the premortal existence. Others have interpreted it to mean that intelligent beings were organized as spirits out of eternal intelligent matter, that they did not exist as individuals before they were organized as spirit beings in the premortal existence (Abr. 3:22; JD 7:57; 2:124)

But D&C 93:29 says that "Man was also in the beginning with God."

Wouldn't that mean that we were all individuals, who always existed as individuals?

Verse 23 says "Ye were also in the beginning with the Father," and wouldn't that mean we were there as individuals?

How can these verses be interpreted to mean "that intelligent beings were organized as spirits out of eternal intelligent matter," and "did not exist as individuals before they were organized as spirit beings in the premortal existence"?


Hello,

IMO if there is an afterlife it would most likely be reincarnation as opposed to any of the other after life scenarios. Reincarnation is coherent IMO. I therefore agree with you that we did exist prior to our arrival on earth.

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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 12:47 am 
God

Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:59 am
Posts: 1681
We were all in the beginning, including God, intelligences. Christ developed faster, and consequently, was chosen to be the firstborn (spirit child) of those intelligences to one of the Heavenly Mothers. The vast "seas" of intelligences are what constitute what is termed the "light of Christ" (see "Light of Christ" on this site).


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 3:46 pm 
God

Joined: Mon May 07, 2012 2:43 pm
Posts: 1390
Can you offer verification of this from the Bible? I would be interested to read those verses. Using Mormon sources to support Mormon theology does not cut it for me. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 7:37 pm 
God

Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:59 am
Posts: 1681
Albion, this is a "Mormon Discussion" site, and if the Mormon Doctrines here are too deep for you or you just don't want to accept Mormon scripture, then maybe you will be very frustrated on this site!


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 7:59 pm 
God

Joined: Mon May 07, 2012 2:43 pm
Posts: 1390
Oh, gdemetz, I promise I'll really try to live up to your high intellectual standards. In the meantime, can you provide the verification I asked for from the Bible?


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 8:06 pm 
God

Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:59 am
Posts: 1681
Okay Albion, I will give you an example of the difficulty you will face if you only use the Bible. The Bible teaches that Adam was formed from the dust of the earth, but it also states that Adam was the son of God (see Luke 3:38). Would you care to try and explain that without the help of modern day prophets and/or scripture? If not, I will explain it to you later.


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 8:41 pm 
God

Joined: Mon May 07, 2012 2:43 pm
Posts: 1390
I think you are changing the subject and avoiding the question. Can you provide substantiation for your earlier thread from the Bible? A simple yes, with reference, or a no will do. There's nothing intellectual in the question?


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 8:48 pm 
God

Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:59 am
Posts: 1681
No, if all you accept is the Bible then you will be very limited here on this site, not to mention your learning will also be very limited! What is your basis for only accepting the Bible anyhow? Now, you try to answer the question I gave you!


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:31 am 
God

Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:52 am
Posts: 7306
gdemetz wrote:
Christ developed faster...


CFR from any official Church source that you like.

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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 7:40 am 
God

Joined: Mon May 07, 2012 2:43 pm
Posts: 1390
Thank you, gemetz. Through faith I accept the Bible as God's word and his complete revelation of himself, complete and sufficient to reveal God's will for my life and salvation for mankind as a whole. It is the accepted foundation of the Christian faith and anything that purports to rival it must be measured against the Bible and nothing else. Experts on art forgeries and currency counterfeiting become experts by studying the originals so they can detect forgeries. They do not study the forgeries to verify the originals.


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:03 pm 
God

Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:59 am
Posts: 1681
Hello?!? Nowhere in the Bible does it state that it is the only and final revelation from God! In fact, the Bible itself has prophesies about the Book of Mormon and other scripture! So, if you really understood and accepted the Bible and quit listening to those who practice priestcraft, then you would accept what the Bible states about truth "springing out of the earth" and the other verses which prophesy of the Book of Mormon and the restoration!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 11:18 pm 
God

Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:52 am
Posts: 7306
Drifting wrote:
gdemetz wrote:
Christ developed faster...


CFR from any official Church source that you like.


Bump

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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 7:40 am 
God

Joined: Mon May 07, 2012 2:43 pm
Posts: 1390
Forgive me, gdemetz, but now you are launching into fantasy and rote apologetics.


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 10:08 pm 
God

Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:59 am
Posts: 1681
Fantasy?! I asked you a legitimate question! Where in the Bible does it teach that it is the one and only source of God's word?! On the contrary, the Bible states that "truth will spring out of the earth" (see also Ezekiel 37), and it also refers to many other books as authentic! It also prophesies of a "restitution of all things," and if that is really true, then those lost books will be restored also!!


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 5:43 am 
God

Joined: Mon May 07, 2012 2:43 pm
Posts: 1390
dgemetz, you are posing a weak argument. You appear to be saying that just because the Bible does not cover a topic, in this case additions to holy writ, that this somehow makes Mormon scriptural additions okay. If the Bible is the standard, which time and position has shown it to be, then additions, if they are to have any credibility, must conform to it. Clearly Mormon theology contradicts and adds in so many ways to Biblical teachings as to be an unreliable counterfeit. Can we stick with one topic at a time?


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 Post subject: Re: Did we have a pre-premortal existence?
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2012 8:56 am 
Area Authority
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Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:33 pm
Posts: 613
MCB wrote:
Only Jesus had a premortal existence.
Quote:
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.
4 In him was life, and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
John 1: 1-5 We are not gods, we are God's. He sent Jesus so that our misunderstandings about Him would be straightened out.

Yes, only Jesus had a pre-mortal existence…along with Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists, Jainists, Celts, ancient Greeks, members of certain mystical Jewish sects, and countless others.

The Holy Roman Church on the other hand deemed the belief in “life before life” to be a Gnostic heresy, and slaughtered the followers of the various reincarnationist movements that sprang up during the Middle Ages.


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