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 Post subject: Moroni & The Lost 10 Tribes
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 12:21 pm 
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According to Joseph's story, one of the things that the angel Moroni (or was it Nephi?) told him during his nocturnal visits was that in the last days the lost 10 tribes would return from the north country. This was consistent with later claims by Joseph to his followers that the 10 tribes lived near the North Pole (as Santa's elves?). Joseph might have been able to get away with such a ridiculous story in the 1830s and 40s, but it is beyond silly today to argue that the 10 tribes are at some unknown location in the north country that explorations and satellites, etc. haven't discovered. As I understand it, biblical scholars tell us that the story of the lost 10 tribes is a myth arising out ot the conquest of the Northern Kingdom of Israel by the Assyrians in the 7th century B.C. The 10 tribes occupied the Northern Kingdom at the time. Some were relocated by the conquerers to Assyria and other locations and some went to the Southern Kingdom where the Jews lived and some remained in the Northern Kingdom with the conquerers, but the separate identity of the 10 tribes was eventually lost, giving rise to the myth. How much sense does it make that an angel of God would believe in such a myth? About as much sense as scores of other fantastic yarns that Joseph trumped up to be swallowed hook, line and sinker by the early Mormons.


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 Post subject: Re: Moroni & The Lost 10 Tribes
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 12:54 pm 
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The world has been searched over and there are no Ten Lost Tribes hiding in the ice in the upper regions of the planet. Joseph Smith made it up.

Also, the writing of Facismile No. 3 has been translated by Egyptologists and there is no Egyptian king's name written therein as Joseph Smith claimed. Not even the famous school teacher Daniel C. Peterson can find it. And he doesn't know what to say about that. His lips are sealed and his jaw is dropped.

Shall I say more? Look, Joseph Smith was a liar. He was a pretty good one at that. I think the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 have proven that. There are no LDS apologists wise enough to prove otherwise. Challenging Facsimile No. 3 is like pouring salt over a scabby testimony -- it hurts.

Paul O

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 Post subject: Re: Moroni & The Lost 10 Tribes
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 1:17 pm 
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Actually, let me correct this. Joseph Smith actually indicated the 10 tribes were no longer on the Earth and would return one day from the North countries when they return.
Quote:
President Young said he heard Joseph Smith say that the Ten Tribes of Israel were on a Portion of Land separated from this Earth.
- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Wilford Woodruff’s Journal, September 8, 1867, reprinted in Susan Staker, ed., Waiting for World’s End, The Diaries of Wilford Woodruff, 1993, p. 291
Quote:
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory. Articles of Faith, verse 10.
Quote:
James E. Talmage; In his book Articles of Faith, page 340, "—it is plain that, while many of those belonging to the ten tribes were diffused among the nations, a sufficient number to justify the retention of the original name were led away as a body, and are now in existence some place where the Lord has hidden them’.
Quote:
3 Nephi 16:1 And verily, verily, I say unto you that I have other sheep, which are not of this land, neither of the land of Jerusalem, neither in any parts of that land round about whither I have been to minister.
3 Nephi 16:2 For they of whom I speak are they who have not as yet heard my voice; neither have I at any time manifested myself unto them.
3 Nephi 16:3 But I have received a commandment of the Father that I shall go unto them, and that they shall hear my voice, and shall be numbered among my sheep, that there shall be one fold and one shepherd; therefore I go to show myself unto them.
This has actually been part of Mormon lore for a very long time. Also, one of the signs that this day is fast approaching was to be the ice caps melting. Hmmmm, I see no signs of that. Do you?


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 Post subject: Re: Moroni & The Lost 10 Tribes
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 1:26 pm 
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Show me the Ten Lost Tribes and tell me the name of the king in Facsimile No. 3 and then I will believe.

Paul O

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 Post subject: Re: Moroni & The Lost 10 Tribes
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 1:32 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
Show me the Ten Lost Tribes and tell me the name of the king in Facsimile No. 3 and then I will believe.

Paul O
I've already answered you. 1) They have yet to return. 2) Joseph Smith couldn't read Egyptian hieroglyphics so any attribution to him regarding that is worthless.


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 Post subject: Re: Moroni & The Lost 10 Tribes
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 2:55 pm 
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smitchell1 wrote:
According to Joseph's story...

Can you provide a reputable, or verifiable ,source that this was actually "according to Joseph"?...or did you mean to write "according to what Benjamin Johnson said Joseph said".
Citing Benjamin Johnson as claiming that Joseph said it is hardly worthy of any further discussion....unless the discussion is about you actually proving it is "according to Joseph"

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 Post subject: Re: Moroni & The Lost 10 Tribes
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 3:42 pm 
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Why is it that Mormons only credit what early Mormons and friends of Joseph said if they like the content. Johnson was both. His statement is also consistent with Joseph's story of what Moroni said during his visits. Do you dispute Joseph's claim in that regard? The North Pole story is also consistent with what other early Mormon leaders close to Joseph wrote. For example, W.W. Phelps, wrote a letter to Oliver Cowdery concerning the North Pole location published in the October 1935 Messenger and Advocate 2:194. Orson Pratt also published an article about the 10 tribes in the north country published in the Millenial Star 29:200-4. Joseph was at least the Editor of the Messenger And Advocate when the article was written. Do you have any evidence that Joseph ever corrected or disavowed the article?

With respect to your statement that Joseph said the lost tribes were in a land separated from the earth, but will return in the last days, that is at least as absurd as the North Pole story. To believe either version is utter nonsense. But to believe Joseph was a prophet, you are forced to believe all sorts of crazy things he said,aren't you.


Last edited by smitchell1 on Sun May 06, 2012 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Moroni & The Lost 10 Tribes
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 3:56 pm 
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Tobin wrote:
Shulem wrote:
Show me the Ten Lost Tribes and tell me the name of the king in Facsimile No. 3 and then I will believe.

Paul O
I've already answered you. 1) They have yet to return. 2) Joseph Smith couldn't read Egyptian hieroglyphics so any attribution to him regarding that is worthless.


You get one point for being half right. You get the other point AFTER the Tribes return, if they ever do.

Have a nice day.

Paul O

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 Post subject: Re: Moroni & The Lost 10 Tribes
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 5:11 pm 
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smitchell1 wrote:
With respect to your statement that Joseph said the lost tribes were in a land separated from the earth, but will return in the last days, that is at least as absurd as the North Pole story. To believe either version is utter nonsense. But to believe Joseph was a prophet, you are forced to believe all sorts of crazy things he said,aren't you.
Really? You do know that Mormons believe the City of Enoch was also caught up and separated from the Earth and will also return? And I find it odd that you would state it is just "crazy" to believe that God could do stuff like this. But, I suppose you would consider it crazy if God parted the Rea Sea or walked on water too because everyone knows that omnipotence has limits.


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 Post subject: Re: Moroni & The Lost 10 Tribes
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 6:19 pm 
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Do you ever justify your beliefs with common sense or reason or do you just try to support one crazy belief with another and it never stops? I suppose God can do anything no matter how crazy and no matter how contrary to the laws of nature, but you have a heavy burden to prove God does so, especially if you are going to start relying on the Old Testament and all the folklore and myths that are scientifically proven not to have occurred. Or do you really believe the story of the Tower of Babel even though there were many languages and people in many regions of the earth hundreds of years before the supposed tower story and the story is nonsensical in so many ways. Of course, the Book of Mormon's story of the Jeredites is dependant on the reality of the Tower of Babel story. So long Book of Mormon. I suppose you also believe that an angel of God with drawn sword threatened to kill Joseph if he didn't have sex with other men's wives and with young teenage girls? The craziness of Mormonism never ends. You can believe anything you want, but don't expect people who have not deluded themselves to pretend your beliefs make any sense or are the result of an intelligent, good faith search for truth.


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 Post subject: Re: Moroni & The Lost 10 Tribes
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 7:02 pm 
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smitchell1 wrote:
Do you ever justify your beliefs with common sense or reason or do you just try to support one crazy belief with another and it never stops? I suppose God can do anything no matter how crazy and no matter how contrary to the laws of nature, but you have a heavy burden to prove God does so, especially if you are going to start relying on the Old Testament and all the folklore and myths that are scientifically proven not to have occurred. Or do you really believe the story of the Tower of Babel even though there were many languages and people in many regions of the earth hundreds of years before the supposed tower story and the story is nonsensical in so many ways. Of course, the Book of Mormon's story of the Jeredites is dependant on the reality of the Tower of Babel story. So long Book of Mormon. I suppose you also believe that an angel of God with drawn sword threatened to kill Joseph if he didn't have sex with other men's wives and with young teenage girls? The craziness of Mormonism never ends. You can believe anything you want, but don't expect people who have not deluded themselves to pretend your beliefs make any sense or are the result of an intelligent, good faith search for truth.
Yes, we get it. You don't believe in God or the Bible and so you don't believe in Mormonism. Thank you for playing. Why exactly do you even wish to discuss Mormonism then?


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 Post subject: Re: Moroni & The Lost 10 Tribes
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 8:11 pm 
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Your implication that if God exists and the Bible is true sacred scripture, one has to believe Mormonism is baseless and illogical. My unbelief in Mormonism goes far beyond belief in God or unbelief in the Bible as sacred scripture reporting historical events. It goes to the absolute absurdity of Joseph Smith's claims, the false, sanitized history sponsored by the L.D.S. Church which attempts to hide the lies and craziness of early Mormonism and the ever changing doctrines and lack of candor concerning some of those doctrines. I was hoping to have a discussion of Mormonism that involved an intelligent discussion of the issues, not the unsupported regurgitation of nonsensical stories. I should have known better. Adieu.


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 Post subject: Re: Moroni & The Lost 10 Tribes
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 8:46 pm 
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smitchell1 wrote:
Your implication that if God exists and the Bible is true sacred scripture, one has to believe Mormonism is baseless and illogical. My unbelief in Mormonism goes far beyond belief in God or unbelief in the Bible as sacred scripture reporting historical events. It goes to the absolute absurdity of Joseph Smith's claims, the false, sanitized history sponsored by the L.D.S. Church which attempts to hide the lies and craziness of early Mormonism and the ever changing doctrines and lack of candor concerning some of those doctrines. I was hoping to have a discussion of Mormonism that involved an intelligent discussion of the issues, not the unsupported regurgitation of nonsensical stories. I should have known better. Adieu.
You should realize that isn't possible. If you don't believe in God and the scriptures, there is no "intelligent" discussion possible with you. We have no common frame of reference on which to discuss things and even reach agreement on. Simply put - Mormonism is a religion that believes that God is real and the scriptures are record of God's dealings with man. As long as you don't believe in either of those, there is nothing to discuss with you about Mormonism.


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 Post subject: Re: Moroni & The Lost 10 Tribes
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 8:57 pm 
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Tobin wrote:
If you don't believe in God and the scriptures, there is no "intelligent" discussion possible with you. We have no common frame of reference on which to discuss things and even reach agreement on. Simply put - Mormonism is a religion that believes that God is real and the scriptures are record of God's dealings with man. As long as you don't believe in either of those, there is nothing to discuss with you about Mormonism.


You're sadly mistaken.

Many of the board posters don't believe in God and think the scriptures are a bunch of garbage. yet they carry on intelligent conversations about Mormonism right here on this board.

You owe the man an apology for what you said. Bad form!

Dr. Shades, where are you?

Paul O

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 Post subject: Re: Moroni & The Lost 10 Tribes
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 9:17 pm 
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Tobin wrote:
You should realize that isn't possible. If you don't believe in God and the scriptures, there is no "intelligent" discussion possible with you. We have no common frame of reference on which to discuss things and even reach agreement on. Simply put - Mormonism is a religion that believes that God is real and the scriptures are record of God's dealings with man. As long as you don't believe in either of those, there is nothing to discuss with you about Mormonism.


Because you apparently have no intelligent basis for your belief in the Bible and Mormonism, I agree there is nothing to discuss. I have no interest in discussing beliefs based on a burning in the bosom validating folklore, myths and lies.


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 Post subject: Re: Moroni & The Lost 10 Tribes
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 9:33 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
You're sadly mistaken.

Many of the board posters don't believe in God and think the scriptures are a bunch of garbage. yet they carry on intelligent conversations about Mormonism right here on this board.

You owe the man an apology for what you said. Bad form!

Dr. Shades, where are you?

Paul O
Not likely. I was just pointing out that smitchell1 is thowing around terms like "crazy" to describe Mormon beliefs in an omnipotent God, the scriptures, or uses that label when I describe the exact belief under discussion. In this case, there is very little discussing going on. Falling back to the position that smitchell1 doesn't believe in a God and that the scriptures are myths and then demanding I prove there is a God and that the scriptures describe actual events that neither of us were present at is bizarre. These demands are what smitchell1 describes as an "intelligent" conversation. I deem them as a complete waste of time. If smitchell1 is interested in whether Mormon beliefs are valid, smithchell1 can speak to God about it. As far as I am concerned, that is inevitable and smitchell1 can remain ignorant until then.


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 Post subject: Re: Moroni & The Lost 10 Tribes
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 6:24 pm 
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It is a complete waste of time for Tobin to defend his beliefs in Biblical and Mormon myths, folklore and lies with anything but his unsupported statement that he believes these things because the L.D.S. church tells him they are true and it makes him feel good. That is undoubtedly because he has no other basis for his beliefs other than a burning in his bosom. Did it ever occur to him that many other religions and spiritual traditions support conflicting and completely different beliefs by resort to the same subjective inner feelings divorced from any good faith search for truth? Who does he think creates his inner feelings? Who creates his anger? Who creates his sadness? Who creates his happiness? The answer is the same person that creates his feelings of spirituality: he does. What is spiritual to one person is of the devil to another person. The idea that you can discover how the universe and God work and whether the Bible and Mormonism are true by just seeking the spirit inside you is absurd. You discover truth by intelligent study, analysis and discussion.

With respect to Tobin's statement that he shouldn't have to prove that there is a God or that the scriptures describe actual history because neither of us were present at the time of these events and that my suggestion that he have some intelligent basis for believing the scriptures is "bizarre," it is really his position that is bizarre. Does he really believe that you cannot possibly know whether an event is historical unless you were there? I wasn't there for the Civil War or the Boston Tea Party, but I've learned a lot about those actual events through study. Certainly, history isn't all black and white and there are many times uncertainties about some details, but that is not to say that the study of history is useless. I am pretty certain that Tobin has never undertaken a critical study of the Old Testament to determine whether stories such as Adam and Eve, Noah's Ark, the Tower of Babel, Lot being raped by his daughters, who then gave birth to the fathers of the Ammonite and Moabite nations, Israel's traditional enemies, the fantastical tales concerning Moses, Jonah and the Whale, and on and on and on. If Tobin were willing to actually undertake a critical study of the Bible, he would learn how much scholars have learned about Biblical history and who actually wrote various portions of the Bible and when and that some prophesies were back dated hundreds of years. A critical study of these ancient stories over many years leads the vast majority of scholars to conclude these stories are nothing but folklore and myths which are debunked not only by science, but by common sense and rational thought. To simply accept these stories as true, sacred scripture just because the church says they are true is not reasonable. On what basis does Tobin favor the Jewish folklore and myths found in the Bible over the folklore and myths of many other ancient cultures?

The same type of analysis holds true for the stories of Joseph Smith and early Mormonism. If Tobin isn't willing to engage in a legitimate search for the truth by critically studying The Book of Mormon and the real history of Joseph and the church instead of just swallowing whole the sanitized "faith promoting" version put out by the church, he really has no reasonable basis for his faith upon which he can expect anyone but a true believing Mormon to place any value. Faith should be based on something more than "this is what Mormons believe and it makes me feel good."

Finally, Tobin says I should speak to God about whether Mormonism is true and until that time I can remain ignorant. Does Tobin understand that hundreds of thousands of people (if not many millions) have done exactly that and either left Mormonism or refused to join? Does he understand that hundreds of thousands of traditional Christians have prayed to God and been told by the spirit that Mormonism is false. Apparently, just asking God and going by the spirit isn't a very dependable way to get answers. In fact, I have studied Mormonism long and hard, both "faith promoting" materials and objective materials. And, I even tested "Moroni's promise." I know "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that Mormonism is false and that Joseph Smith was not a prophet. I would bet that Tobin has never undertaken a good faith, objective look at the Bible, the Book of Mormon or Mormonism. Until he is willing to do so, it is he that will remain ignorant.


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 Post subject: Re: Moroni & The Lost 10 Tribes
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 8:34 pm 
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Hehe, I must have struck a nerve with this smitchell1. Something is clearly broken because that is quite a number of generalizations about what I may or may not believe. Since I don't hold many of the beliefs I'm suppose to subscribe to according to smitchell1, I did get a good laugh reading through the post below. And just to clarify, many of the accounts in the Bible come from Bible sources alone and the same can be said of many of the supposedly spiritual Mormon events which come from Mormon accounts. The fact smitchell1 dismisses all of these accounts as myths and states definitively that "I know 'beyond a shadow of a doubt' that Mormonism is false" just screams bias. How does smitchell1 know these things so absolutely? Clearly, smitchell1 has never spoken with God nor believes in such a being, but states definitely to know that such a being does not and can not exist. That is ridiculous.


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 Post subject: Re: Moroni & The Lost 10 Tribes
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 8:43 pm 
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Tobin wrote:
Clearly, smitchell1 has never spoken with God nor believes in such a being, but states definitely to know that such a being does not and can not exist. That is ridiculous.


I assume you've spoken to God who lives in your head and therefore you believe he lives. Goody for you. Unless of course you would like to video tape him or produce a sound recording to show that he lives -- any conversation with God and YOU are just mind producing trips, kind of like being on drugs.

Enjoy your trips.

Paul O

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 Post subject: Re: Moroni & The Lost 10 Tribes
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 11:15 pm 
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smitchell1 wrote:
the 10 tribes lived near the North Pole (as Santa's elves?)


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 Post subject: Re: Moroni & The Lost 10 Tribes
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 5:32 pm 
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The only nerve Tobin has struck with his posts is my funny bone. Do you think that when he speaks with God, Tobin speaks in tongues--perhaps the pure Adamic language? It would take a supernatural being to make sense of Tobin's mutterings. I'm leaving Tobin's Land of Oz for the real world where facts, reason and a search for truth count for something. Beam me up Scotty!


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