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 Post subject: Resigning does not remove blessings...
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:11 am 
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From the anecdotal posts I have read on here and in other places, I always thought that resigning meant specifically that the blessings you were to receive as a result of baptism etc were removed.

In fact, isn't that what the letter confirming your resignation specifically says?


However,

Quote:
Conner, who was raised Mormon and served a two-year LDS mission, said one of the hardest moments for him came after he asked to have his name removed from the church’s membership rolls. He received a letter from his bishop, he said, claiming that all the blessings he had received in the church and all the good he had done as a missionary were "null and void."

Two of the LDS participants said that "was not true," Conner reported, and that "my service is still valid and those blessings are valid."

It was, he said, "a healing moment."

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/53972 ... r.html.csp




So which is correct?

The letter from the Bishop saying they are null and void, or the verbal claim by two LDS PR types saying that they aren't null and void?

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 Post subject: Re: Resigning does not remove blessings...
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:24 am 
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Drifting wrote:
The letter from the Bishop saying they are null and void, or the verbal claim by two LDS PR types saying that they aren't null and void?

i am skeptical that the truth is being told about the letter for the Bishop, ergo this post is BUNK

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 Post subject: Re: Resigning does not remove blessings...
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:30 am 
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subgenius wrote:
Drifting wrote:
The letter from the Bishop saying they are null and void, or the verbal claim by two LDS PR types saying that they aren't null and void?

i am skeptical that the truth is being told about the letter for the Bishop, ergo this post is BUNK


So, you are saying the letter received by members who resign doesn't state a warning about the loss of blessings if they go through with their name removal?

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 Post subject: Re: Resigning does not remove blessings...
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:55 am 
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Drifting wrote:
Drifting wrote:
The letter from the Bishop saying they are null and void, or the verbal claim by two LDS PR types saying that they aren't null and void?

subgenius wrote:
i am skeptical that the truth is being told about the letter for the Bishop, ergo this post is BUNK


So, you are saying the letter received by members who resign doesn't state a warning about the loss of blessings if they go through with their name removal?


Bump.

The Church Handbook states (IIRC) that those people resigning "must understand " that this will result in their blessings becoming null and void.

Answer the question scaredy cat...ooops...I mean....sacredy cat.

Meanwhile I will ascertain the exact wording from the Bishops letter or Handbook and kick your ass (yet again) with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Resigning does not remove blessings...
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 12:07 pm 
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Here you go subgenius


Quote:
Dated: 29 October 2007

Dear Bro. ____

"I have just been notified by the stake president that you have requested to have your name removed from the records of the Church of Jesus Christ of Later(sic)-day Saints. Although your request has been honored I wish you had had the desire to visit with me about it. This action can be rescinded only if a written request is recieved by the Stake President within 30 days from the above date.

"As Bishop, I must be certain you understand such action cancels the effects of baptism & negates any & all blessings of membership. This request should have been made independently & freely without undue pressure or coercion by anyone else."

If needed, you can send your written request to:
(stake prez's addy)

"I hope you do not forget us in the church. We will always care about you & you will always be welcome at our meetings. May the Lord bless you in all you do."



Subgenius wrote earlier:
Quote:
i am skeptical that the truth is being told about the letter for the Bishop, ergo this post is BUNK


I've put up so now you can shut up... :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Resigning does not remove blessings...
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 11:00 pm 
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Quote:
So which is correct?


Perhaps both. I would hazard for the moment that blessings for good deeds done cannot be lost, often already having been fully given. Obviously, the continuation of blessings associated with Church membership (the Spirit, the temple ordinances, the promises made to those who so covenant, adoption into the house of Israel or Abraham etc.) are lost.

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 Post subject: Re: Resigning does not remove blessings...
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:31 am 
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bcspace wrote:
Quote:
So which is correct?


Perhaps both. I would hazard for the moment that blessings for good deeds done cannot be lost, often already having been fully given. Obviously, the continuation of blessings associated with Church membership (the Spirit, the temple ordinances, the promises made to those who so covenant, adoption into the house of Israel or Abraham etc.) are lost.


Nice try.
But the phrase ''cancels the effects of baptism & negates any & all blessings of membership'' makes it clear that it is cancelling all blessings retrospectively.

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 Post subject: Re: Resigning does not remove blessings...
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 4:44 pm 
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Why on earth would anyone wanting to resign from Mormonism (a) Consider there were any blessings in the first place and (B) Why would those assumed blessings be of any value since the resignee has rejected the organization that apparently grants them in the first place? More important, I would think, would be an assurance that, since it is the intent of the one resigning, his or her name has been literally expunged from all Mormon records and they become persons unknown to the Mormon Church. You can resign from the Mormon Church but the Mormon Church won't leave you alone because somewhere your name still sits in a file somewhere and might still be included in official Mormon Church records as a member. I won't accept any name removal for resignation or for excommunication has ever actually happened because the Mormon Church cannot be trusted on this issue. One step they could take that would give some credence to the idea that reignation results in name removal would be to include in annual membership statistics the number of those resigning each year. I think hell will freeze over first.


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 Post subject: Re: Resigning does not remove blessings...
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 5:18 pm 
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Albion wrote:
Why on earth would anyone wanting to resign from Mormonism (a) Consider there were any blessings in the first place and (B) Why would those assumed blessings be of any value since the resignee has rejected the organization that apparently grants them in the first place? More important, I would think, would be an assurance that, since it is the intent of the one resigning, his or her name has been literally expunged from all Mormon records and they become persons unknown to the Mormon Church. You can resign from the Mormon Church but the Mormon Church won't leave you alone because somewhere your name still sits in a file somewhere and might still be included in official Mormon Church records as a member. I won't accept any name removal for resignation or for excommunication has ever actually happened because the Mormon Church cannot be trusted on this issue. One step they could take that would give some credence to the idea that reignation results in name removal would be to include in annual membership statistics the number of those resigning each year. I think hell will freeze over first.
I don't think there is an agenda here other than laziness and sloppiness. Personally, I would prefer they just kicked people out if they haven't seen them in the past 6 months. If they really want back in, they can get rebaptized. I don't understand why they just don't do that other than the reasons I stated before.

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 Post subject: Re: Resigning does not remove blessings...
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 5:57 pm 
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Tobin wrote:
Albion wrote:
Why on earth would anyone wanting to resign from Mormonism (a) Consider there were any blessings in the first place and (B) Why would those assumed blessings be of any value since the resignee has rejected the organization that apparently grants them in the first place? More important, I would think, would be an assurance that, since it is the intent of the one resigning, his or her name has been literally expunged from all Mormon records and they become persons unknown to the Mormon Church. You can resign from the Mormon Church but the Mormon Church won't leave you alone because somewhere your name still sits in a file somewhere and might still be included in official Mormon Church records as a member. I won't accept any name removal for resignation or for excommunication has ever actually happened because the Mormon Church cannot be trusted on this issue. One step they could take that would give some credence to the idea that reignation results in name removal would be to include in annual membership statistics the number of those resigning each year. I think hell will freeze over first.
I don't think there is an agenda here other than laziness and sloppiness. Personally, I would prefer they just kicked people out if they haven't seen them in the past 6 months. If they really want back in, they can get rebaptized. I don't understand why they just don't do that other than the reasons I stated before.


The church would never excommunicate someone for not going to church for over six months. If they did that official church membership would drop by almost two-thirds. Even if someone falls of the church’s radar they will keep them on the roles until they are like 100+ years old.

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 Post subject: Re: Resigning does not remove blessings...
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 7:20 pm 
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son of Ishmael wrote:
The church would never excommunicate someone for not going to church for over six months. If they did that official church membership would drop by almost two-thirds. Even if someone falls of the church’s radar they will keep them on the roles until they are like 100+ years old.
And the Church would never give up polygamy and would never allow blacks to have the priesthood.

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 Post subject: Re: Resigning does not remove blessings...
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 7:53 pm 
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Tobin wrote:
son of Ishmael wrote:
The church would never excommunicate someone for not going to church for over six months. If they did that official church membership would drop by almost two-thirds. Even if someone falls of the church’s radar they will keep them on the roles until they are like 100+ years old.
And the Church would never give up polygamy and would never allow blacks to have the priesthood.



Giving up polygamy and lifting the priesthood ban was good PR. Lowering the church's membership from 14 million to 5 million would be bad PR. Corporations like good PR.

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 Post subject: Re: Resigning does not remove blessings...
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 7:58 pm 
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son of Ishmael wrote:
Tobin wrote:
And the Church would never give up polygamy and would never allow blacks to have the priesthood.
Giving up polygamy and lifting the priesthood ban was good PR. Lowering the church's membership from 14 million to 5 million would be bad PR. Corporations like good PR.
Reorganization and reform is also good for corporations too. I view the LDS Church as a very badly managed corporation.

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 Post subject: Re: Resigning does not remove blessings...
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 8:04 pm 
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"...I view the LDS Church as a very badly managed corporation."


Well, we agree on that

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 Post subject: Re: Resigning does not remove blessings...
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2012 9:03 pm 
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Quote:
Perhaps both. I would hazard for the moment that blessings for good deeds done cannot be lost, often already having been fully given. Obviously, the continuation of blessings associated with Church membership (the Spirit, the temple ordinances, the promises made to those who so covenant, adoption into the house of Israel or Abraham etc.) are lost.


I've always struggled to understand this. Mormons who espouse grace talk about 100% effort being the magic key to salvation. Anything less than this is spoken of as a kind of "hell," or condemnation. This was always difficult for me to grasp. Basically it means that someone who gave 95%, let's say they went on the mission, but they couldn't get up on time 5% of the time. That person wouldn't be eligible for grace and hence his blessings would be little different than someone who refused to go at all. Both would end up in the Terrestrial kingdom. Then comes the question of who can really say he gave 100%? I've heard a few people either bold enough or stupid enough to make this claim. It becomes almost neurotic to the point that nothing is good enough. A simple faith in reaping what you sew seemed more comforting than this.

I wanted to leave my mission a month early so I could start school that fall. My companion rebuked me and said that Jesus Christ requires 100% effort. Perhaps he was right, perhaps he was wrong, but who knows and who is permitted to say? But I do know that that there were other people who did just that, and they weren't real concerned about not reaching the magic 100% stamp. I'm sure they all think they're just as eligible to inherit it all in the big Celestial family as the next guy. They're probably happier now too because they don't torture themselves by allowing other people to tell them they're not trying hard enough. What will the final judgment be? All I know is that I don't agree with most LDS perspectives on the issue. I don't even care to talk about it with most of them, because it too often just comes down to one ignorant person manipulating another.

What specifically are the blessings that are lost or gained with each action or nonaction. I honestly couldn't even answer that as a TBM and it really bugged me that I didn't know. And if I were allowed to question a TBM on this issue, they'd either get angry with me or have to do some real dodging because they don't know either.

I went to Church for the first time in a while. They talked about the importance of understanding the atonement as if everyone understood or should undertand the details of it. From my study, the atonement seems like a nebulous thing that few LDS can really define in much detail. It's very open ended from my perspective on Mormon doctrine/lack of doctrine.

Nobody can ever tell me what good I did in the past has no effect because I don't go to Church or don't pay tithing anymore. But don't think they don't try. I believe all sacrifices made have value. Maybe that doesn't fit with Mormon doctrine on the atonement but it sure fits that Holy Ghost and Spirit of truth thing as I know it. One brother talked about how he viewed this life as something he earned. It was so refreshing to hear the word, "earn," in a Mormon priesthood meeting again. I don't care what the Baptist say, our works or nonworks are of enormous importance. They're not even close to worthless rags, not for anyone in this world.

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 Post subject: Re: Resigning does not remove blessings...
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 11:24 am 
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Does a false membership claim of 14 million as opposed to 5 million lend any credence to the claims of Mormonism? Either number is microscopic within the context of religions taken as a whole. To me it's kind of like saying 50 million Frenchmen can't be wrong on cuisine because they all eat frogs.


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 Post subject: Re: Resigning does not remove blessings...
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 11:30 am 
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Albion wrote:
Does a false membership claim of 14 million as opposed to 5 million lend any credence to the claims of Mormonism? Either number is microscopic within the context of religions taken as a whole. To me it's kind of like saying 50 million Frenchmen can't be wrong on cuisine because they all eat frogs.
Many Mormons have the misconception that the LDS Church is growing wildly and will grow to include everyone on the planet. That is why I believe there is inertia about the real number of members being published. And I seriously doubt that can happen with the present LDS Church. It would have to change radically and dispose of a lot of false doctrines and practices to be embraced generally. I don't think they are ready for that and it might take a long time or a reformation before that could even be contemplated. If I were to consider a Church that does a good job, it would be the Seventh Day Adventists. I believe if Mormons followed that model they would be a lot more successful.

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 Post subject: Re: Resigning does not remove blessings...
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 1:10 pm 
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Interesting. While I do attend a particular church I am not much into church in the institutional sense preferring not to model my life on churches and their specific sets of denominational rules...often the things that cause separation rather than communion of believers. I do believe that by and large most Christian churches agree on the essentials of the Gospel. I believe that the future church, in America from where I experience it, will be quite different because I see that the younger generation are not as denomination bound as their parents might be. The Mormon Church will indeed have to jettison a great deal of its theology and certainly its elitism as having the corner on truth before it either gains acceptance under the wider Christian umbrella. As an observer I see significant changes already as an effort to move in that direction and thus gain winder acceptance. It will be a long time, I think, before that transition becomes more obvious.


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 Post subject: Re: Resigning does not remove blessings...
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 9:50 am 
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Just as a point of interest, what church besides the Mormon Church excommunicates people as freely as the Mormon Church? As a believing, participating Christian for more than 25 years I have never heard of anyone being excommunicated in the various churches I have attended. Is God really in the kicking out business?


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 Post subject: Re: Resigning does not remove blessings...
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 10:40 am 
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Not really. The Mormon Church has some rather deep New England Puritan roots and so they feel this need to go through this process with undesirables. They really should change the view of membership to that of a privilege that you have to maintain instead of this view that it's a obligation that drags everyone into these excommunication courts.

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 Post subject: Re: Resigning does not remove blessings...
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 12:57 pm 
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I think not, too. The cynic in me sees the excommunication process as more of a control issue. There is, too, an additional dimension for Mormon excommunication as opposed to other churches. If, for instance, a person is exed from the Methodist Church (I don't really know if Methodist's do exing) his separation is only from that particular body and is not like having one's name stricken from the "lamb's book of life" which is really what Mormon Church excommunication essentially does within that belief system. It's an interesting issue since repentance is talked about a lot by Mormons as part of the entry process but apparently there is only repentance up to a point for some "sins". It does, to me, point up a major issue of control over church rule breakers who are ceremonial dumped as if repentance is null and void without the authoritarian issue of exing being pronounced over them. "We're going to kick you out and make you a pariah," hardly seems to demonstrate Christ-like love any way you look at it.


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