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 Post subject: Heavenly Mother
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:44 pm 
Star A

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Is Heavenly Mother Official doctrine?

Is it official doctrine that resurrected and exalted women, with bodies of flesh and bone, literally conceive, carry and give birth to spirit children (who have bodies of spirit)?


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 Post subject: Re: Heavenly Mother
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:52 pm 
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Hmmm, I'm not sure that we teach that. I know we don't emphasize that.

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 Post subject: Re: Heavenly Mother
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:54 pm 
Star A

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just me wrote:
Hmmm, I'm not sure that we teach that. I know we don't emphasize that.

Sounds like something President Hincley once said.

But is it official doctrine?


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 Post subject: Re: Heavenly Mother
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:52 pm 
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Yes, it's in the family proclamation. It is also something that has been taught by the prophets previously. In fact, Brigham Young taught that Heavenly Father had more than one wife.


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 Post subject: Re: Heavenly Mother
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:03 pm 
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Search in scriptures gives this answer:
Image



Global search for "Heavenly Mother" gives 15 results:

General Conference : 4
- 1978, 1978, 1986, 1987

Magazines : 8 (4 of them are the conference issue)
None of them younger than 1987

Manuals : 3
- Primary 2: Choose the Right A
- A Parent’s Guide
- The Latter-day Saint Woman: Basic Manual for Women, Part A (only cites Kimball from 1973)

Apparently the Correlation Committee only skimmed the manuals...

**************************************
The global search has side note:
Recommended Results
- The Family: A Proclamation to the World
- Official Statement - Daughters of God - Gordon B. Hinckley, October 1991 General Conference

What does Recommended Result mean? It is not really a result, and we should get it as if it were?

In the Hinckley talk no h. mother, no h. parents, there is h. father only.
The Proclamation says heavenly parents only, not mother explicitly.

As usual, gdemetz should know better: "Yes, it's in the family proclamation."
Sorry, it is not.

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 Post subject: Re: Heavenly Mother
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:17 am 
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inquiringmind wrote:
Is Heavenly Mother Official doctrine?
Is it official doctrine that resurrected and exalted women, with bodies of flesh and bone, literally conceive, carry and give birth to spirit children (who have bodies of spirit)?
It is taught. Mormons just don't understand it. If you enter the Celestial Kingdom, you will help organize spirit children. Those spirit children will in turn have physical bodies as we do and come to a world organized by God. So, of course we teach there is a heavenly father and heavenly mother. Our heavenly father and mother were celestial beings that organized our spiritual bodies. However, God the Father was not our father. Jesus Christ is the only begotten of God the Father, so we don't have a Heavenly Mother in that sense and that is why what you are asking about is not taught.


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 Post subject: Re: Heavenly Mother
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:03 am 
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Tobin wrote:
inquiringmind wrote:
Is Heavenly Mother Official doctrine?
Is it official doctrine that resurrected and exalted women, with bodies of flesh and bone, literally conceive, carry and give birth to spirit children (who have bodies of spirit)?
It is taught.



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 Post subject: Re: Heavenly Mother
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:24 am 
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Aside for the obvious, and without argument, fundamental LDS doctrine that the spirits or souls of individual human beings are NOT created ex nihilo, and that we are "children" of God, and the LDS doctrine of theosis..... we have the following:

"All human beings—male and female—are created in the image of God. Each is a beloved spirit son or daughter of heavenly parents"
- The Family, a Proclamation to the World (emphasis mine)

From Chapter 2 of Gospel Principles manual:
“Man, as a spirit, was begotten and born of heavenly parents, and reared to maturity in the eternal mansions of the Father, prior to coming upon the earth in a temporal [physical] body” (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph F. Smith [1998], 335).
http://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-princi ... y?lang=eng (emphasis mine)

The Juvenile Instructor, XXIX, No. 8 (April 15, 1894): 263 - Hymn title - "Our Mother in Heaven"
(an official church publication)

"I tell you, when you see your Father in the Heavens, you will see Adam; when you see your Mother that bore your spirit, you will see Mother Eve."
Brigham Young
http://www.scribd.com/doc/86490565/Brig ... -Discourse

From church hymn #292 verse 3:
"In the heav'ns are parents single? No, the thought makes reason stare! Truth is reason; truth eternal Tells me I've a mother there. When I leave this frail existence, When I lay this mortal by, Father, Mother, may I meet you In your royal courts on high?"
http://www.lds.org/churchmusic/detailmu ... seqend=ZZZ
(emphasis mine)

Logic and reason would certainly suggest that if we have a Father in Heaven, we have a Mother in Heaven. That doctrine rests well with me. However, in light of the instruction we have received from the Lord Himself, I regard it as inappropriate for anyone in the Church to pray to our Mother in Heaven...The fact that we do not pray to our Mother in Heaven in no way belittles or denigrates her...none of us can add to or diminish the glory of her of whom we have no revealed knowledge.
Gordon B Hinckley - "Daughters of God," Ensign (November 1991), 97

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 Post subject: Re: Heavenly Mother
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:25 am 
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Drifting wrote:
CFR

viewtopic.php?p=577300#p577300

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 Post subject: Re: Heavenly Mother
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:26 am 
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ludwigm wrote:
...
Sorry, it is not.

Sorry, but it is....and elsewhere....
viewtopic.php?p=577300#p577300

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 Post subject: Re: Heavenly Mother
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:29 am 
God

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subgenius wrote:

Logic and reason would certainly suggest that if we have a Father in Heaven, we have a Mother in Heaven. That doctrine rests well with me. However, in light of the instruction we have received from the Lord Himself, I regard it as inappropriate for anyone in the Church to pray to our Mother in Heaven...The fact that we do not pray to our Mother in Heaven in no way belittles or denigrates her...none of us can add to or diminish the glory of her of whom we have no revealed knowledge.
Gordon B Hinckley - "Daughters of God," Ensign (November 1991), 97


Thanks subby,

So was God cheating on Heavenly Mother when he had sex with Mary the mother of Jesus?

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 Post subject: Re: Heavenly Mother
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:30 am 
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inquiringmind wrote:
Is Heavenly Mother Official doctrine?

Is it official doctrine that resurrected and exalted women, with bodies of flesh and bone, literally conceive, carry and give birth to spirit children (who have bodies of spirit)?

you are erroneous, once again, with your posts.

Heavenly Mother is official doctrine....but your "definition" of Heavenly Mother is incorrect, or at least unsupported by fact, doctrine, or logical inference.
So, the only answer one could honestly give to your question(s) is "yes" and then "no"

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 Post subject: Re: Heavenly Mother
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:32 am 
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Drifting wrote:
subgenius wrote:

Logic and reason would certainly suggest that if we have a Father in Heaven, we have a Mother in Heaven. That doctrine rests well with me. However, in light of the instruction we have received from the Lord Himself, I regard it as inappropriate for anyone in the Church to pray to our Mother in Heaven...The fact that we do not pray to our Mother in Heaven in no way belittles or denigrates her...none of us can add to or diminish the glory of her of whom we have no revealed knowledge.
Gordon B Hinckley - "Daughters of God," Ensign (November 1991), 97


Thanks subby,

So was God cheating on Heavenly Mother when he had sex with Mary the mother of Jesus?


Mary was hot. Who wouldn't? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Heavenly Mother
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:35 am 
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Tobin wrote:
It is taught. Mormons just don't understand it.


but how does tobin understand it since he doesn't believe you can with the spiritual experience, and you claim seeing God only once and He was supposedly there for other reasons. :eek:

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 Post subject: Re: Heavenly Mother
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:44 am 
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Drifting wrote:
Thanks subby,

So was God cheating on Heavenly Mother when he had sex with Mary the mother of Jesus?

Illogical question....because you assume that God "had sex" with Mary....which you can not prove happened, nor can you prove that such an idea is LDS doctrine.
Now, i will pause and wait for you to regurgitate the usual out-of-context reference (1 Nephi 11:18-21) and then feebly try to imply that LDS believe God "had sex" with Mary......yawn
(the 1972 family home evening manual is not authoritative text, nor does it speak to the "mechanics" by which Mary was made preggo, btw.)
BUT...if you actually have a solid reference that details the "method" of mary's conception, then we can examine your idea of "cheating".
I assume you consider modern day artificial insemination to be "cheating" if the sperm donor was a married man, married to a woman other than the recipient?....or does the idea that since mankind has been able to conceive children without "having sex" exclude that ability from God?

I like your strategy...but i ain't laughing

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 Post subject: Re: Heavenly Mother
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:58 am 
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Subgenius, I am glad to see you are moving further away from LDS beliefs. It is really encouraging.

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 Post subject: Re: Heavenly Mother
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:10 am 
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Subby, did you not listen in Church?


Quote:
Brigham Young "The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood--was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers." (Journal of Discourses, volume 8, p. 115)
He also taught:
"When the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost... Now, remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, pp. 50, 51)
Ezra Taft Benson taught:
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost. He is the Son of the Eternal Father." (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, pg.7; cf. Come unto Christ, p. 4)
Orson Pratt taught:
"[God] had a lawful right to overshadow the Virgin Mary in the capacity of a husband, and beget a Son , ...it may be that ... He intended after the resurrection to again take her as one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits (bear his children) in eternity." ('The Seer, p. 158)
The 1985 edition of Gospel Principles teaches:
"Thus, God the Father became the literal father of Jesus Christ. Jesus was born of a mortal mother and an immortal father." (p.57)
Family Home Evenings (1972), by the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, says the following in pp. 125-126 to "help you and your children understand that Jesus is God's Only Begotten Son."

Joseph F. Smith is quoted under the heading, "A MODERN PROPHET'S ANSWER":
"Now we are told in Scriptures that Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son of God in the flesh. Well, now for the benefit of the older ones, how are children begotten? I answer just as Jesus Christ was begotten of his father... We must come down to the simple fact that God Almighty was the Father of His Son Jesus Christ. Mary, the virgin girl, who had never known mortal man, was his mother. God by her begot His son Jesus Christ. And he was born into the world with power and intelligence like that of his Father."

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 Post subject: Re: Heavenly Mother
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:26 am 
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Drifting wrote:
Subby, did you not listen in Church?

more than you ever have, apparently


Quote:
Brigham Young....]


at least you quoted most of the sources i knew you would....but you still have failed to prove that the LDS church teaches God "had sex" with Mary, and that this "sex" was "cheating".
Now if you are going to hang your hat on "how are children begotten?" and ignore the overwhelming LDS church positions otherwise, then what is left to discuss?
FYI - begotten means to procreate OR create....but perverts often like to fixate on the former not the latter.

You have yet to answer the challenges in my previous post...and i can see why.

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 Post subject: Re: Heavenly Mother
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:28 am 
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BUMP to Drifting, because no response had been given to specific request therein
viewtopic.php?p=577319#p577319

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 Post subject: Re: Heavenly Mother
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:55 am 
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There seem to be two contradictory gospel theories on the origins of our spirits. One is that we were organized from raw "intelligences" into spirits by God, and another that we were pumped out by a Heavenly Mother. Which is it, do you suppose?

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 Post subject: Re: Heavenly Mother
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:20 am 
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Buffalo wrote:
There seem to be two contradictory gospel theories on the origins of our spirits. One is that we were organized from raw "intelligences" into spirits by God, and another that we were pumped out by a Heavenly Mother. Which is it, do you suppose?
We were organized from intelligence into spirit bodies by our celestial parents (our heavenly father and mother). Where the antis/exs/TBMs go wrong are:
1) That intelligences have to be conceived and "birthed". There is no reason to believe that.
2) That our heavenly father and mother are God and that trillions of intelligences are conceived and birthed by only them (just pointing out how ridiculous this gets). Again, Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God and the whole concept that God conceived our spirts alone is ludicrous. In fact, this is one of the roles of the celestial beings and organizing intelligences into spirit children is a blessing they receive.


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