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 Post subject: Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:53 pm 
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Additionally, what evidence do you use to justify imposing the data of a decay rate able to be observed over, at best, a millennium or two to a time span of 10 million years.


The "evidence" of quantum mechanics. That's why I brought it up. Half-lives, like spectral lines, are an inherent property of their nuclei. The rate of decay does not change any more over a period of a billion years than it does over a period of a million or a thousand years, or a single year.

Quote:
either way, ask yourself a quick question...given the amount of nuclear explosions that have occurred on the earth, what impact will they have on the reliability of radiometric dating in the distant future?


Since radiocarbon dating is ineffective over timespans longer than a few thousands of years, and radiometric dating for geologic processes does not use Carbon-14 but much longer-lived isotopes, current nuclear tests won't affect future measurements at all (assuming "distant future" means >10,000 years from now).

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let me footnote that i have no particular disagreement with plate tectonics


Happy to hear it!

Quote:
however, it is clear to the most cursory of scientific understanding that continental drift has little to confirm/deny with regards to a "flood"


That's true on the surface, but obviously false if the "flood" in question is asserted to have occurred on a single continental landmass that still existed as a single continental landmass as of ca. 2300 BCE. In that case, existing radiometric and geologic evidence utterly discounts the possibility of such a flood.

As a side note, there is good anthropological and geological evidence that the Mesopotamian region experienced periodic catastrophic flooding, including particularly devastating regional floods sometime around 3000 BCE.


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 Post subject: Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:12 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
Buffalo wrote:
...

Image

No near-extinction events in the window of time for the flood.

Just for kicks, and to prove that you are well above the kind of person that would just take something at face value.....can you give us the evidence that PROVES 7 million at 4000 BC?
...or are you just taking MotherJones's word for it?


The fact that you use the word "proves" demonstrates profound intellectual retardation on your part. But there is plenty of evidence that the population was roughly seven million.

Population estimates come from aggregate estimates of major centers of civilization and outlying areas. All based on archeological findings.

http://heritage-key.com/blogs/michael-k ... ties-world
http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1 ... 6078392293
http://www.arts.cornell.edu/jrz3/PopulationHQ.pdf
http://www.tulane.edu/~august/H303/hand ... lation.htm

Then again, since this information comes from "experts" with "advanced degrees" who "know" things about the world through "research" and "physical evidence" instead of consulting octogenarian Utahan surgeons, you should be skeptical.

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 Post subject: Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:58 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
ummm...go drink the kool-aid on another thread.


Subgenius, are you and Wenglund one and the same person?

Wenglund on MDD shows a penchant for the kool-aid reference.

Since you've either picked it up or you are one and same person, I just wonder if you have any idea what "drink the kool-aid" implies.

The only other person in history who I've heard admonish to "drink the kool-aid" was the (not-so-reverend) Rev. James Jones of Johnstown.

He was a total nut case who managed to set up a little dictatorial kingdom in Guyana. When threatened with exposure for his crimes and lunacy, Jones ordered Congressman Leo Ryan to be killed, then ordered his devoted followers, some 900 men, women and children to commit suicide.

I still have a cassette tape of his final radio broadcast from November 18, 1978, which Jones sent from his Jonestown camp. Jones called upon his members to force-feed their 303 children to drink a cyanide-laced grape drink. (not kool-aid, by the way). Once the children were dying Jones cried out, "Don't be afraid to die" and that they, too, must drink the potion.

So what do you (Wenglund) mean with "drink the kool-aid"? Is this your Mormon way of saying FOAD?

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 Post subject: Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:04 pm 
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bcuzbcuz wrote:
subgenius wrote:
ummm...go drink the kool-aid on another thread.


Subgenius, are you and Wenglund one and the same person?

Wenglund on MDD shows a penchant for the kool-aid reference.



There not the same people. Wade likes to insult others in a more subtle way then sub.

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 Post subject: Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:07 pm 
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Themis wrote:

There not the same people. Wade likes to insult others in a more subtle way then sub.


I still think Sub = Belmont

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We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


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 Post subject: Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 3:06 am 
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Themis wrote:
Wade likes to insult others in a more subtle way then sub.


Subtle? Surely you jest.

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 Post subject: Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:49 am 
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Drinking the Kool Aid...

Quote:
"Drinking the Kool-Aid" is a metaphor commonly used in the United States and Canada that refers to a person or group's unquestioning belief, argument, or philosophy without critical examination. The phrase typically carries a negative connotation when applied to an individual or group. The basis of the term is a reference to the November 1978 Rev. Jim Jones Jonestown Massacre,[1][2] where members of the Peoples Temple were said to have committed suicide by drinking Flavor Aid (not actually Kool-Aid,) drink laced with cyanide.[3][4]
Some survivors of the incident object to the link between blind faith and the deaths of members of the People's Temple implied by the phrase, because some victims were murdered—forced to drink at gunpoint—rather than being convinced to commit suicide. In addition, Jim Jones had previously had many rehearsals for the event in which the drink contained no poison, which led to cult members believing the drink was harmless on the day that it did contain poison.[5]
Objections notwithstanding, the phrase is commonly used in a variety of contexts to describe blind, uncritical acceptance or following.

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 Post subject: Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:06 am 
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Samantabhadra wrote:
The "evidence" of quantum mechanics. That's why I brought it up. Half-lives, like spectral lines, are an inherent property of their nuclei. The rate of decay does not change any more over a period of a billion years than it does over a period of a million or a thousand years, or a single year.

so, your evidence is a theory that is what i was asking for evidence of?
Let me be specific....
prove your following claim with actual empirical evidence
"The rate of decay does not change any more over a period of a billion years than it does over a period of a million or a thousand years, or a single year."(emphasis mine)


Quote:
Since radiocarbon dating is ineffective over timespans longer than a few thousands of years, and radiometric dating for geologic processes does not use Carbon-14 but much longer-lived isotopes, current nuclear tests won't affect future measurements at all (assuming "distant future" means >10,000 years from now).

agree with that conclusion...however, assume that radiocarbon dating is effective.....now propose a conclusion about the impact of the numerous, yes numerous, nuclear explosions that have occurred in the last decades.


Quote:
That's true on the surface, but obviously false if the "flood" in question is asserted to have occurred on a single continental landmass that still existed as a single continental landmass as of ca. 2300 BCE. In that case, existing radiometric and geologic evidence utterly discounts the possibility of such a flood.

see radiometric discussion above. Geologic evidence is arguable not "utterly". Your inability to be scientifically inquisitive is showing. There are countless inconsistencies in the geologic data.

Quote:
As a side note, there is good anthropological and geological evidence that the Mesopotamian region experienced periodic catastrophic flooding, including particularly devastating regional floods sometime around 3000 BCE.

and there are flood "myths" that appear in globally - there is no evidence to conclude that Mesopotamian people considered the boundaries of their "world" to be set by their immediate geography...after all it was not an island.
"As a side note", most people understand the Scriptures as not being an actual account of geologic history....are you familiar with the Scriptures and what they are about? Only those without basic spiritual discernment try to attack the validity of the Scriptures via such a novice approach...amusing, but ineffective to say the least.

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 Post subject: Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:12 am 
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Drifting wrote:
Drinking the Kool Aid...

Image

Atheists...our modern day Pharisees
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. - Matthew 15:14

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 Post subject: Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:13 am 
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Buffalo wrote:

I still think Sub = Belmont

yet more evidence that your "intuition" is anything but intuitive.
Sub=Sub

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 Post subject: Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:22 am 
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Buffalo wrote:
The fact that you use the word "proves" demonstrates profound intellectual retardation on your part. But there is plenty of evidence that the population was roughly seven million.

first "roughly"? exactly what do you mean by "roughly"? give or take 10? or ...give or take 3 million?
"roughly" speaking, you don't know what you are trying so hard to "support"...so hard to really really believe is what is "real".

Buffalo wrote:
Then again, since this information comes from "experts" with "advanced degrees" who "know" things about the world through "research" and "physical evidence" instead of consulting octogenarian Utahan surgeons, you should be skeptical.

you know what else is intellectually r*******?
not actually reading the links you post as "support" :lol:
of course, guys with "advanced degrees"....oo la la...i was asking for actual evidence, thank you.
also you FAIL

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 Post subject: Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 6:28 am 
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Drifting wrote:

According to Jeffers R Holland (and as referenced by gdemetz) the continents split when the flood waters receded circa 2,300 bc.

Do you agree with Elder Holland?


Bumping to give subby the opportunity to avoid becoming the recipient of a white feather...

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 Post subject: Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:17 am 
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bcuzbcuz wrote:
Themis wrote:
Wade likes to insult others in a more subtle way then sub.


Subtle? Surely you jest.


Subtle to him, not so much to the rest of us.

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 Post subject: Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:28 am 
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subgenius wrote:
Buffalo wrote:

I still think Sub = Belmont

yet more evidence that your "intuition" is anything but intuitive.
Sub=Sub


It doesn't really matter to me if you're Sub, Belmont or Joey Buttafuoco. The intellect is about the same.

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We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


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 Post subject: Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:29 am 
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subgenius wrote:
you know what else is intellectually r*******?
not actually reading the links you post as "support" :lol:
of course, guys with "advanced degrees"....oo la la...i was asking for actual evidence, thank you.
also you FAIL


I'm well aware you that wouldn't have read the links that describe how population estimates are arrived at. You don't strike me as a reader.

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Parley P. Pratt wrote:
We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

B.R. McConkie, © Intellectual Reserve wrote:
There are those who say that revealed religion and organic evolution can be harmonized. This is both false and devilish.


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 Post subject: Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:37 am 
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Quote:
"As a side note", most people understand the Scriptures as not being an actual account of geologic history....are you familiar with the Scriptures and what they are about?


Yes. And I agree with you that only an idiot, or a mendacious atheist intent on making his opponents appear to have the worst possible arguments, would insist that Scripture conveys an actual account of geologic history.

Quote:
Only those without basic spiritual discernment try to attack the validity of the Scriptures via such a novice approach...amusing, but ineffective to say the least.


I think you misunderstand me. I am not "attacking" the Scriptures. On the contrary, I am arguing for a sophisticated understanding of Scripture. I think we are in agreement here.

Quote:
so, your evidence is a theory that is what i was asking for evidence of?
Let me be specific....
prove your following claim with actual empirical evidence
"The rate of decay does not change any more over a period of a billion years than it does over a period of a million or a thousand years, or a single year."(emphasis mine)


This is where we depart. You are misunderstanding the state of knowledge of atomic physics. Obviously there is no "empirical evidence" to the effect that decay rates don't change over a period of a billion years, since in order to have such evidence we would need to have a billion years of decay rate data as opposed to the hundred or so years of data that we actually have.

However, this data is unnecessary to the point at hand, since if our understanding of things like nuclear decay rates were wrong, we wouldn't be able to build e.g. PET scanners. Science is not like a quilt that you can put a hole in one part but the rest of the quilt is still there. Some parts of science are like that, and some disciplines operate pretty much independently of each other, but quantum mechanics is absolutely not like that.

If nuclear decay rates were variable (apart from the fact that decay reactions are statistical, probabilistic processes) then our whole understanding of atomic physics would be completely wrong. We would be so wrong that there wouldn't be any way to, for example, build an atomic bomb. In fact a lot of the people who worked on the atomic bomb had gotten their start by working on nuclear decay; Fermi for instance received his Nobel in 1938 for his work on neutrons, which was an extension of his work on beta decay. It was only possible to build the atom bomb because our understanding of e.g. decay rates was so accurate, and so intimately related to our understanding of every other facet of nuclear physics.

So I do understand why it sounds weird to quote a "theory" in support of an argument, but quantum mechanics isn't "just a theory," it is a verified and very well understood description of how atomic-scale phenomena work. Is there more to learn? Sure. But in much the same way that general relativity didn't replace Newton's law of gravitation, only expanded upon it and demonstrated that it was a special case for low-energy phenomena, any future developments in e.g. quantum electrodynamics or quantum gravity will absolutely have to account for what we already know, which is that half-lives, like spectral lines, are an inherent property of the nuclei under consideration.


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 Post subject: Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:46 am 
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subgenius wrote:
Image

Atheists...our modern day Pharisees
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. - Matthew 15:14


Somehow I'm not surprised that you use a metaphor that is both demeaning in its crudeness, yet inaccurate (since its reference is to Flavor Aid, not Kool-aid).

Your allusion to Pharisees only furthers my point. As an atheist I acknowledge my blindness and seek to lead no one. As an atheist I am well aware there is danger in following someone merely because he/she shout the loudest.

You are very prone to shouting, so I will obviously not follow you.

Falling into ditches is one of the drawbacks of being blind. However, being blind, I have also learned how to get out of ditches without looking to others to find a way out for me. I do not stay stuck in a rut, as those who claim to know their way around. Those who think they have sight tend to wallow in the mud, quite ignorant that there is life outside the ditch.

Next time, try to find a picture of Flavor Aid if you wish to insult.

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 Post subject: Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 4:41 pm 
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Samantabhadra wrote:
This is where we depart. You are misunderstanding the state of knowledge of atomic physics.

i do not think we depart as much as you may hope...i think we just have different depths of understanding for this topic, in this context.
For example, the decay rate is not a lynch pin for the validity of atomic science...but my inquiry as to its reliability over time is valid...remember the influence that the numerous nuclear tests/explosions may have?

The radioactive decay modes of electron capture and internal conversion are known to be slightly sensitive to chemical and environmental effects which change the electronic structure of the atom, which in turn affects the presence of 1s and 2s electrons that participate in the decay process. (emphasis mine)
It is rather careless to assume that there were no local or even global chemical and environmental effects over the course of 10 million years.
Now that being said, i am not advocating throwing out atomic science or that radiometric dating does not have a certain application. However, when it comes to many things in life, one must surely recognize the need to discern from among many sources....and to not confuse one for the other.
So, while we may cite radiometric dating as "valid", we surely can not disregard the fact that it is based on probability theory...see also the Poisson process.

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 Post subject: Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 5:06 pm 
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bcuzbcuz wrote:
Somehow I'm not surprised that you use a metaphor that is both demeaning in its crudeness, yet inaccurate (since its reference is to Flavor Aid, not Kool-aid).

its a popular phrase...commercial product accuracy has no bearing on its meaning.
but hey....your first fallacy

Quote:
Your allusion to Pharisees only furthers my point.

what point was that? the Flavor-Aid point?
Quote:
As an atheist I acknowledge my blindness and seek to lead no one. As an atheist I am well aware there is danger in following someone merely because he/she shout the loudest.

:neutral:

Quote:
You are very prone to shouting, so I will obviously not follow you.

your second fallacy

Quote:
Falling into ditches is one of the drawbacks of being blind. However, being blind, I have also learned how to get out of ditches without looking to others to find a way out for me. I do not stay stuck in a rut, as those who claim to know their way around. Those who think they have sight tend to wallow in the mud, quite ignorant that there is life outside the ditch.

quite the mixed metaphor here :eek:
People who have sight tend to wallow in the mud??
Don't they also avoid falling into ditches?
So you escape the rut of not being in a ditch, by falling into a ditch?


Quote:
Next time, try to find a picture of Flavor Aid if you wish to insult.

http://www.wacky-packages.net/lost-wack ... OL-AID.jpg

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 Post subject: Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 7:48 pm 
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Of course, the oceans have water already, and I'm sure the sea levels would have been raised a bit. How much would you think? I guess that depends on what flavor of PHD you like. As far as the arguments that there wouldn't have been enough time for the earth to reach its present population is concerned, that reminds me of the foolish king who agreed to his mathematicians request concerning his reward. The mathematician requested only one grain of rice (or whatever it was) to be placed on a chessboard, and that each square of the chessboard be doubled thereafter. The foolish king agreed, but after only the third row it began to dawn on the king that he would not have enough grains in all his kingdom to give for the reward! The story doesn't say what happened after that, but I suspect that the king may have gotten rid of his mathematician in one way or another!


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 Post subject: Re: Fables vs. Restored Truths
PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2012 9:38 pm 
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Sorry Gd, but even ignoring the lack of a genetically viable population, with straight exponential growth and around 17-20 year generations, you don't even get close to 25 million from 8 in 350 years.

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