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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 1:37 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Themis, I have read the Bible from cover to cover and gone over it and studied it for more than 50 years as well as reading many commentaries, etc., etc., etc. You won't find very many Christian theologians who don't believe that the Gospel of John was written mostly by John.


List the 'very many' theologians who believe the Gospel of John was written mostly by John.

Quote:
The gospel identifies its author as "the disciple whom Jesus loved." The text does not actually name this disciple, but by the beginning of the 2nd century a tradition began to form which identified him with John the Apostle, one of the Twelve (Jesus's innermost circle). Today the majority of scholars do not believe that John or any other eyewitness wrote it,[12][13][14][15][16][17] and trace it instead to a "Johannine community" which traced its traditions to John; the gospel itself shows signs of having been composed in three "layers", reaching its final form about 90-100 AD.[18][19] According to the Church Fathers, the Bishops of Asia Minor requested John, in his old age, to write a gospel in response to Cerinthus, the Ebionites and other Hebrew groups which they deemed heretical.[20][21][22] This understanding remained in place until the end of the 18th century.[23]
The Gospel of John developed over a period of time in various stages,[24] summarized by Raymond E. Brown as follows:[25]
An initial version based on personal experience of Jesus;
A structured literary creation by the evangelist which draws upon additional sources;
The final harmony that presently exists in the New Testament canon, around 85-90 AD.[26]
In view of this complex and multi-layered history it is meaningless to speak of a single "author" of John, but the title perhaps belongs best to the evangelist who came at the end of this process.[27] The final composition's comparatively late date, and its insistence upon Jesus as a divine being walking the earth in human form, renders it highly problematical to scholars who attempt to evaluate Jesus' life in terms of literal historical truth.[28][29]

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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 1:43 am 
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Yes, I read that reference already and I think it is secular hogwash. As if some group coming along that late would know the intimate circumstances such as exact hours, etc. It is possible they had a copy of that and may even have added some things to it.


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 1:47 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Yes, I read that reference already and I think it is secular hogwash.

Of course you do, it doesn't agree with what you want to believe.

Quote:
As if some group coming along that late would know the intimate circumstances such as exact hours, etc.

So you accept that we really can't know the truth about Jesus because we weren't there?

Quote:
It is possible they had a copy of that and may even have added some things to it.

Exactly, second and third hand accounts all stemming from one source.

Please name those theologians that believe John was written by John...

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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 1:58 am 
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Check "External Evidence that the Gospels are Authentic." This site gives references to some, and there are many more.


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 2:00 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Check "External Evidence that the Gospels are Authentic." This site gives references to some, and there are many more.


Names please.
(You must have them because you stated there were very many)
List your top five.

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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 2:02 am 
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I gave you a site that lists names. You want me to do your homework for you and make it easier for you to be an anti?


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 2:04 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
I gave you a site that lists names. You want me to do your homework for you and make it easier for you to be an anti?


You gave me one site and expect me to go through it to find the names that you claim exist?
:lol:

Top five names please - your particular favourites.
(Top Tip; Don't use Warren Berkley)

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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 2:20 am 
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ALL the references are listed at the bottom! They give the names and titles of the books, etc.!


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 3:03 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
ALL the references are listed at the bottom! They give the names and titles of the books, etc.!


Which ones are those which you feel are most persuasive?
Do you believe that 'John' is still alive today as per the three Nephites?
What is found in the Gospel of John that isn't found in the Gospel of Mark?

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Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 5:26 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Check "External Evidence that the Gospels are Authentic." This site gives references to some, and there are many more.


Which site?
A website entitled...
"External Evidence that the Gospels are Authentic."
...appears to not exist.

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Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:25 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Themis, I have read the Bible from cover to cover and gone over it and studied it for more than 50 years as well as reading many commentaries, etc., etc., etc. You won't find very many Christian theologians who don't believe that the Gospel of John was written mostly by John.


Christians theologians? Of course they would believe this. That is the belief they came into it with. Personally I don't care if you just started studying the bible yesterday. If you have evidence present it. You have a terrible habit of just asserting things, and asserting someone with education is asserting something. This is not evidence. Present the evidence. Authorship claims are of course not as simple as some might think.

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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 9:05 pm 
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OK, Themis and Drifting, here are a few sites for you anti's:

1) "Physical and Literary Evidence That the Gospels are Authentic"

2) "The Authenticity of the Four Gospels"

3) "Full Text of the Authenticity of the Four Gospels"

4) "Internal Evidence for the Authenticity and Genuineness of St. John's..."

5) "The Christ by John E. Remsberg"


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:44 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
OK, Themis and Drifting, here are a few sites for you anti's:

1) "Physical and Literary Evidence That the Gospels are Authentic"



Okay, so I checked out this first reference which actually isn't a site it's an essay on a site called themoorings.com solely operated by one individual Ed Rickard (a Baptist Minister).

He states:

Quote:
The physical evidence that the Gospels are genuine productions of the early church is of two kinds.
The received text of the Gospels is based on a large number of manuscripts in the original language, Greek, together with a large number of ancient versions in other languages.
Some of the surviving Greek manuscripts of the Gospels date from not long after the time when Jesus lived.


Really gdemetz?
The evidence is that the text is based on other texts and that some of them date to not long after the time of when Christ is meant to have lived?

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Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 8:52 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
OK, Themis and Drifting, here are a few sites for you anti's:

1) "Physical and Literary Evidence That the Gospels are Authentic"

2) "The Authenticity of the Four Gospels"

3) "Full Text of the Authenticity of the Four Gospels"

4) "Internal Evidence for the Authenticity and Genuineness of St. John's..."

5) "The Christ by John E. Remsberg"


I am not an anti, but you can say it all you want if you think it is going to help you by attacking the person. I am also not going to look things up until you learn how to properly reference things. I talk about this on another thread.

http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=23524&start=147

Now is that to hard, and that is a bare minimum. You really need to learn what evidence is and start providing it. It is not asserting things or showing where someone else has asserted it.

by the way The book of John like other books were written well after the fact, and who authored them is not clear at all. Personally I don't really care, but I know it's important to a literal black and white thinker who wants to treat the Bible as infallible.

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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 8:42 pm 
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He is speaking of the "surviving manuscripts." They had to be hand copied. Also, if your check those sources thoroughly (and there are many more), to me the evidence of authenticity is overwhelming.


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:48 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
He is speaking of the "surviving manuscripts." They had to be hand copied. Also, if your check those sources thoroughly (and there are many more), to me the evidence of authenticity is overwhelming.


List the top three specific pieces of evidence of authenticity that you find most convincing.

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"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:27 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
He is speaking of the "surviving manuscripts." They had to be hand copied. Also, if your check those sources thoroughly (and there are many more), to me the evidence of authenticity is overwhelming.


If yo want to assert things you have the responsibility to back them up. Stop being so dam lazy. You said it. You need to show the evidence specifically. Not give vague details of where we can find it and then expect us to have to read volumes of text to find out if what you claim is accurate. That is your job. Most people understand this, but you seem to not get so many things.

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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 1:10 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
He is speaking of the "surviving manuscripts." They had to be hand copied. Also, if your check those sources thoroughly (and there are many more), to me the evidence of authenticity is overwhelming.



"Gentlemen, I will now show you this text. Forgive me for using a photocopy. It's not distrust. I don't want to subject the original to further wear."
"But Ingolf's copy wasn't the original," I said. "The parchment was the original."
"Casaubon, when originals no longer exist, the last copy is the original."
-- Foucault's Pendulum of Umberto Eco, Chapter 18

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Last edited by ludwigm on Mon Feb 29, 2016 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 8:50 pm 
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NO!!! It's shrinking

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PIWFht3 ... re=related

Oaks's Confirms apostasy(Before Official PR repealing the statement)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93XqR6IOcAw&feature=plcp

They haven't updated their lesson manuals either.


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2012 9:16 pm 
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Check out this one site then: "External evidence that the gospels are authentic." I wish I could read it to you and make it easier for you!


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 Post subject: Re: Is the Church really growing?
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2012 12:26 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Check out this one site then: "External evidence that the gospels are authentic." I wish I could read it to you and make it easier for you!


Hi, can you just list the top three things from that source that you personally find most persuasive?

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