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 Post subject: How does the Book of Mormon define priestcraft 2?
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2012 8:43 pm 
CTR A

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Hello,

What follows are all of the Book of Mormon verses which contain the word priestcraft. How does the Book of Mormon define priestcraft?

*************************************************************

"2 Nephi 10:4": 4 For should the mighty miracles be wrought among other nations they would repent, and know that he be their God.
"2 Nephi 10:5": 5 But because of priestcrafts and iniquities, they at Jerusalem will stiffen their necks against him, that he be crucified.

"2 Nephi 26:29": 29 He commandeth that there shall be no priestcrafts; for, behold priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion.
"2 Nephi 26:30": 30 Behold, the Lord hath forbidden this thing; wherefore, the Lord God hath given a commandment that all men should have charity, which charity is love, and except they should have charity they were nothing. Wherefore, if they should have charity they would not suffer the laborer in Zion to perish.
"2 Nephi 26:31": 31 But the laborer in Zion shall labor for Zion; for if they labor for money they shall perish.

"Alma 1:2": 2 And it came to pass that in the first year of the reign of Alma in the judgment-seat, there was a man brought before him to be judged, a man who was large, and was noted for his much strength.
"Alma 1:3": 3 And he had gone about among the people, preaching to them that which he termed to be the word of God, bearing down against the church; declaring unto the people that every priest and teacher ought to become popular; and they ought not to labor with their hands, but that they ought to be supported by the people.
"Alma 1:4": 4 And he also testified unto the people that all mankind should be saved at the last day, and that they need not fear nor tremble, but that they might lift up their heads and rejoice; for the Lord had created all men, and had also redeemed all men; and, in the end, all men should have eternal life.
"Alma 1:5": 5 And it came to pass that he did teach these things so much that many did believe on his words, even so many that they began to support him and give him money.
"Alma 1:6": 6 And he began to be lifted up in the pride of his heart, and to wear very costly apparel, yea, and even began to establish a church after the manner of his preaching.
"Alma 1:7": 7 And it came to pass as he was going, to preach to those who believed on his word, he met a man who belonged to the church of God, yea, even one of their teachers; and he began to contend with him sharply, that he might lead away the people of the church; but the man withstood him, admonishing him with the words of God.
"Alma 1:8": 8 Now the name of the man was Gideon; and it was he who was an instrument in thehands of God in delivering the people of Limhi out of bondage.
"Alma 1:9": 9 Now, because Gideon withstood him with the words of God he was wroth with Gideon, and drew his sword and began to smite him. $ Now Gideon being stricken with many years, therefore he was not able to withstand his blows, therefore he was slain by the sword.
"Alma 1:10": 10 And the man who slew him was taken by the people of the church, and was brought before Alma, to be judged according to the crimes which he had committed.
"Alma 1:11": 11 And it came to pass that he stood before Alma and pleaded for himself with much boldness.
"Alma 1:12": 12 But Alma said unto him: Behold, this is the first time that priestcraft has been introduced among this people. And behold, thou art not only guilty of priestcraft, but hast endeavored to enforce it by the sword; and were priestcraft to be enforced among this people it would prove their entire destruction.
"Alma 1:13": 13 And thou hast shed the blood of a righteous man, yea, a man who has done much good among this people; and were we to spare thee his blood would come upon us for vengeance.
"Alma 1:14": 14 Therefore thou art condemned to die, according to the law which has been given us by Mosiah, our last king; and it has been acknowledged by this people; therefore this people must abide by the law.
"Alma 1:15": 15 And it came to pass that they took him; and his name was Nehor; and they carried him upon the top of the hill Manti, and there he was caused, or rather did acknowledge, between the heavens and the earth, that what he had taught to the people was contrary to the word of God; and there he suffered an ignominious death.
"Alma 1:16": 16 Nevertheless, this did not put an end to the spreading of priestcraft through the land; for there were many who loved the vain things of the world, and they went forth preaching false doctrines; and this they did for the sake of riches and honor.

"3 Nephi 16:10": 10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from
among them.

"3 Nephi 21:19": 19 And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes,
and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away.

"3 Nephi 30:2": 2 Turn, all ye Gentiles, from your wicked ways; and repent of your evil doings, of your lyings and deceivings, and of your whoredoms, and of your secret abominations, and your idolatries, and of your murders, and your priestcrafts, and your envyings, and your strifes, and from all your wickedness and abominations, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, that ye may receive a remission of your sins, and be filled with the Holy Ghost, that ye may be numbered with my people who are of the house of Israel.
******************************************************
My understanding of priestcraft as defined in the Book of Mormon is when an individual or group promote themselves as God's special mouthpiece, or as it says in 2 Nephi 26:29 as a light to the world.
If we look at 2 Nephi 10: 4-5 and I'm not claiming this is literally true but only as a means of defining priestcraft, would giving the Levites money cause them to reject Jesus or would it be claiming that the Levite are God's special mouthpiece? In the account given in Alma 1:2 was the false prophet attempting to rob Gideon, or was he attempting to force him to believe in his status with God, and to accept his revelations. In 2 Nephi
26:29 "He commandeth that there shall be no priestcrafts; for, behold priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion."
what part of this is the actual definition of priestcraft? If someone wrote fishing is when people try to catch fish, that they may eat, and don't care about the welfare of the fish. Which part of that definition would be the definition of fishing?

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 Post subject: Re: How does the Book of Mormon define priestcraft 2?
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 5:09 am 
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sleepyhead wrote:
...set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion."

for all your text, you could simply have posted this...it is not a complicated topic.

Quote:
what part of this is the actual definition of priestcraft?

that they may get gain and praise of the world

Quote:
If someone wrote fishing is when people try to catch fish, that they may eat, and don't care about the welfare of the fish. Which part of that definition would be the definition of fishing?

:confused: huh?
more likely it would be as if someone was a fisherman not to catch fish for eating but for the purpose of profit and admiration, and for the adoration from the fish.
Bill Dance might be considered guilty of 'fishcraft'.

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 Post subject: Re: How does the Book of Mormon define priestcraft 2?
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 7:30 am 
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subgenius wrote:
that they may get gain and praise of the world


Image

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 Post subject: Re: How does the Book of Mormon define priestcraft 2?
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 11:29 am 
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sleepyhead wrote:
Hello...My understanding of priestcraft...In 2 Nephi 26:29 "He commandeth that there shall be no priestcrafts; for, behold priestcrafts are that men preach and set themselves up for a light unto the world, that they may get gain and praise of the world; but they seek not the welfare of Zion."
what part of this is the actual definition of priestcraft?


I like your interest!

Above I have underlined what I believe is the more serious of the listed offenses with priestcraft. Greed and seeking the honors of man have always been, and are at times the motivation to get things done. What is wrong, IMO, is the act of inserting oneself between man and God, i.e. "light unto the world."

If we consider the gift Jesus brought, it was that any man could use his name - not just High Priest. Protestants understand that. Mormons, Catholics, the Orthodox Churches, Church of England, Islam, etc. all teach that they are the light, and one must go through them to get to God.

From God's p.o.v., there is nothing worse but to circumvent, undermine, or obscure the gift of Jesus Christ. In Old Testament times the mediator was the high priest and animal sacrifice. Today, neither animal sacrifice nor a high priest is needed. It circumvents the power of the name of Jesus when LDS feel they can perform no ordinance or blessing except by prefacing (or appending) it with "by virtue of the m. priesthood that I hold." Women in particular were left destitute, unable to perform the simplest of blessings over their children!

In the Roman Church, it's worse, as man has added all kinds of penitence's to absolve sins, with all sorts of misdirection using Mary and saints to help. It truly is abominable, so abominable, that it wiped out the simple gospel that the Twelve Apostles taught, and as the Book of Mormon prophesied, they even changed the Word of God to accompany their blasphemous requirements. This was in fact one of the remedies that the Book of Mormon offered.

Priestcraft manifested early with Joe and can be sufficiently traced by reviewing first hand accounts and observing the fruit of Mormonism. Here is a prima facie evidence: Child Baptisms. At the start, no age was mandated by the Book of Mormon, then Joe inserted himself as a "light" on the issue and commanded that all members baptize their children - for sins - at eight. That, has made a mockery of the love of God as Mormon taught Moroni.

Add to that the additional Mormon requirements to get to God (WoW, garments, temple 'endowment,' 'celestial' marriage, tithing, etc.) and you have a real life example of priestcraft. If it's not in the Book of Mormon, it's not required for your (Mormon)exaltation/(Christian) salvation. Hope that helps!

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 Post subject: Re: How does the Book of Mormon define priestcraft 2?
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 12:16 pm 
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Buffalo wrote:
subgenius wrote:
that they may get gain and praise of the world
....

[image deleted]

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 Post subject: Re: How does the Book of Mormon define priestcraft 2?
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 12:22 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
[Faux quote from subgenius deleted]


FIFY

[MODERATOR NOTE: Do not alter a quote of another forum participant, especially in the Celestial Forum.]

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 Post subject: Re: How does the Book of Mormon define priestcraft 2?
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 12:37 pm 
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DWhitmer wrote:
I like your interest!

:rolleyes: interest in what? the motive is clear and it obscures any notion of 'interest'.

Quote:
Above I have underlined what I believe is the more serious of the listed offenses with priestcraft. Greed and seeking the honors of man have always been, and are at times the motivation to get things done. What is wrong, IMO, is the act of inserting oneself between man and God, i.e. "light unto the world."

is it ironic that you are using a Book of Mormon verse to defend your position?

Quote:
If we consider the gift Jesus brought, it was that any man could use his name - not just High Priest. Protestants understand that. Mormons, Catholics, the Orthodox Churches, Church of England, Islam, etc. all teach that they are the light, and one must go through them to get to God.

inaccurate, they insist that one must go through the scriptures to get to God. I have never been taught, nor is it doctrine, that I can not get to God without going through the "Prophet".

Quote:
From God's p.o.v., there is nothing worse but to circumvent, undermine, or obscure the gift of Jesus Christ.

reference?

Quote:
In Old Testament times the mediator was the high priest and animal sacrifice. Today, neither animal sacrifice nor a high priest is needed. It circumvents the power of the name of Jesus when LDS feel they can perform no ordinance or blessing except by prefacing (or appending) it with "by virtue of the m. priesthood that I hold." Women in particular were left destitute, unable to perform the simplest of blessings over their children!

simply not true, women have and are still capable of participating in such blessings. The priesthood is apparent in such verses as John 15:16, James 5:14-15, Hebrews 5:1, Hebrews 10, Numbers 27:18-19 etc..
You would try to confuse the no-longer-necessary sin offerings with priesthood ordinances, which is either disingenuous or uninformed of you. The doctrine of the LDS church does not contradict the absence of any necessary sin offerings.

Quote:
Priestcraft manifested early with Joe and can be sufficiently traced by reviewing first hand accounts and observing the fruit of Mormonism. Here is a prima facie evidence: Child Baptisms. At the start, no age was mandated by the Book of Mormon, then Joe inserted himself as a "light" on the issue and commanded that all members baptize their children - for sins - at eight. That, has made a mockery of the love of God as Mormon taught Moroni.

your reasoning here simply relies on the assumption that a Prophet, Prophecy, and Revelation can not exist and the scriptures clearly disagree with you.

Quote:
Add to that the additional Mormon requirements to get to God (WoW, garments, temple 'endowment,' 'celestial' marriage, tithing, etc.) and you have a real life example of priestcraft. If it's not in the Book of Mormon, it's not required for your (Mormon)exaltation/(Christian) salvation. Hope that helps!

obvious misrepresentation of any facts to the point of being an illogical fantasy.

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 Post subject: Re: How does the Book of Mormon define priestcraft 2?
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 12:39 pm 
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Buffalo wrote:
subgenius wrote:
[Faux quote from subgenius deleted]


FIFY

Mods.
I believe it has been clearly stated before that misrepresenting someones quote is unacceptable....is that still true?

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 Post subject: Re: How does the Book of Mormon define priestcraft 2?
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 12:42 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
Mods.
I believe it has been clearly stated before that misrepresenting someones quote is unacceptable....is that still true?


If that's the case, you're in big trouble for replacing my image with a series of periods!

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 Post subject: Re: How does the Book of Mormon define priestcraft 2?
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 1:33 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
obvious misrepresentation of any facts to the point of being an illogical fantasy.


"Fools mock, but they shall mourn;" (Ether 12)

.

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 Post subject: Re: How does the Book of Mormon define priestcraft 2?
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 7:54 pm 
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Hello whitmer,

I agree with you that light of the world is the significant part of the definition. This was my second attempt at using the Book of Mormon to define priestcraft. Unfortunately you and others have chosen to go beyond the topic of the thread. I don't care whether you criticise the church or not but it's unfortunate that you and others felt the need to do in on the thread I created. You are perfectly free to create your own thread about any topic you desire.

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 Post subject: Re: How does the Book of Mormon define priestcraft 2?
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2012 10:40 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
Mods.
I believe it has been clearly stated before that misrepresenting someones quote is unacceptable....is that still true?

Yes, it's still true.

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 Post subject: Re: How does the Book of Mormon define priestcraft 2?
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 7:15 am 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
subgenius wrote:
Mods.
I believe it has been clearly stated before that misrepresenting someones quote is unacceptable....is that still true?

Yes, it's still true.


That's fine, but it should probably be mentioned somewhere in the rules.

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We must lie to support brother Joseph, it is our duty to do so.

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 Post subject: Re: How does the Book of Mormon define priestcraft 2?
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2012 8:02 am 
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DWhitmer wrote:
subgenius wrote:
obvious misrepresentation of any facts to the point of being an illogical fantasy.


"Fools mock, but they shall mourn;" (Ether 12)

.

classic example of inserting oneself as the "light"?...but thanks for the reference.

Reminds me of Ether 12:6
"And now, I, Moroni, would speak somewhat concerning these things; I would show unto the world-" - Stop right there Moroni! sounds like the priestcraft of revelation!

Ether 12:27.
And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

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 Post subject: Re: How does the Book of Mormon define priestcraft 2?
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:55 am 
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DWhitmer wrote:

If we consider the gift Jesus brought, it was that any man could use his name - not just High Priest. Protestants understand that. Mormons, Catholics, the Orthodox Churches, Church of England, Islam, etc. all teach that they are the light, and one must go through them to get to God.


hi, Catholic teaching is that God calls to all, the Catholic Church is the means of Salvation, whether you are Catholic or not. It is a supernatural attribute of the Body of Christ, which we understand to be His Church.

Quote:
In the Roman Church, it's worse, as man has added all kinds of penitence's to absolve sins,


Penitence doesn't absolve sin, Jesus Christ in the the person the Priest does.

Quote:
with all sorts of misdirection using Mary and saints to help.


Yes, we do believe that other faithful, living and dead, can help us live Christian lives. They don't absolve our sins though.

Quote:
It truly is abominable, so abominable, that it wiped out the simple gospel that the Twelve Apostles taught, and as the Book of Mormon prophesied, they even changed the Word of God to accompany their blasphemous requirements. This was in fact one of the remedies that the Book of Mormon offered.


I believe, and have faith, that when Jesus said He would not leave us as orphans, He hasn't. Our Bishops are the successors to the Apostles. The faith has been handed on and protected.

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 Post subject: Re: How does the Book of Mormon define priestcraft 2?
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 1:29 pm 
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madeleine wrote:
DWhitmer wrote:
If we consider the gift Jesus brought, it was that any man could use his name - not just High Priest. Protestants understand that. Mormons, Catholics, the Orthodox Churches, Church of England, Islam, etc. all teach that they are the light, and one must go through them to get to God.


hi, Catholic teaching is that God calls to all, the Catholic Church is the means of Salvation, whether you are Catholic or not. It is a supernatural attribute of the Body of Christ, which we understand to be His Church.


Thank you for confirming that Catholicism is full of priestcraft. Believers are the body of Christ, which is Christ's church. To be a member, one must accept the gift and teachings of Jesus, his gospel as confirmed by both two books of scripture: the Holy Bible and the Holy Book of Mormon. You'll find words such as "CARDINAL" and "POPE" absent; and teachings such as transubstantiation and the selling of indulgences absent. It is truly deceiving to come here pretending Catholicism is anything but a morally depraved; ancient and resurrected; hierarchical, blasphemous institution; repent!

madeleine wrote:
I believe, and have faith, that when Jesus said He would not leave us as orphans, He hasn't. Our Bishops are the successors to the Apostles. The faith has been handed on and protected.


Actually, the Holy Ghost was sent, which was promised would comfort us (John 14:16-17 & 18). And Jesus himself said he could come, not Mary, and not some pedophilic priest. You trust that God approves your church attendance and that sitting on a pew once or twice a week and listen to the unscriptural recitals and anointing yourself with holy water, or the cross, etc. impresses God?

If you knew your church history, you would run in horror and remove your name from that church as quickly as possible. Comfort is with God, not some alleged saint, or Mary, a pope or priest. You should read some near death experiences to see how far such misplaced faiths get you on the other side, but the good news, you have time to repent and join other born again Christians who know Christ as their personal Savior. The very group of individuals who founded this great nation of America!

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 Post subject: Re: How does the Book of Mormon define priestcraft 2?
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 8:28 pm 
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The Church of England most certainly does not preach "they" are the only light nor that one "must go through them" to get to God. They do preach that they are part of Christ's Church which is the communion of believers.


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 Post subject: Re: How does the Book of Mormon define priestcraft 2?
PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2012 9:21 pm 
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Albion wrote:
The Church of England most certainly does not preach "they" are the only light nor that one "must go through them" to get to God. They do preach that they are part of Christ's Church which is the communion of believers.


Not always, episcopal succession is important:

Quote:
Anglicans assert unbroken episcopal succession in and through the Church of England back to St. Augustine of Canterbury and to the first century Roman province of Britannia. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episcopalian_church_governance#Anglican_Communion]


And baptism is administered by the clergy:

Quote:
In the Anglican tradition, the celebration of the sacraments is reserved to the clergy: bishops, priests and deacons — this last may baptise and, in some Provinces, celebrate marriages. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglican_sacraments#Ordained_ministry]

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 Post subject: Re: How does the Book of Mormon define priestcraft 2?
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 6:18 am 
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None of that supports your original assertion. The Church of England does not claim any corner on correctness as being the only church one must got through to God.,


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 Post subject: Re: How does the Book of Mormon define priestcraft 2?
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 8:55 am 
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Albion wrote:
None of that supports your original assertion. The Church of England does not claim any corner on correctness as being the only church one must got through to God.,


Obviously they are important; read the links.

Let me help your dissonance, do they accept the baptisms of Mormons, Jehovah Witness, or Adventist?

Lay members are not routinely performing baptisms, they are not allowed, that alone substantiaties the position, sorry.

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 Post subject: Re: How does the Book of Mormon define priestcraft 2?
PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 9:54 am 
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DWhitmer wrote:

Thank you for confirming that Catholicism is full of priestcraft. Believers are the body of Christ, which is Christ's church. To be a member, one must accept the gift and teachings of Jesus, his gospel as confirmed by both two books of scripture: the Holy Bible and the Holy Book of Mormon. You'll find words such as "CARDINAL" and "POPE" absent; and teachings such as transubstantiation and the selling of indulgences absent. It is truly deceiving to come here pretending Catholicism is anything but a morally depraved; ancient and resurrected; hierarchical, blasphemous institution; repent!


Actually, the Holy Ghost was sent, which was promised would comfort us (John 14:16-17 & 18). And Jesus himself said he could come, not Mary, and not some pedophilic priest. You trust that God approves your church attendance and that sitting on a pew once or twice a week and listen to the unscriptural recitals and anointing yourself with holy water, or the cross, etc. impresses God?

If you knew your church history, you would run in horror and remove your name from that church as quickly as possible. Comfort is with God, not some alleged saint, or Mary, a pope or priest. You should read some near death experiences to see how far such misplaced faiths get you on the other side, but the good news, you have time to repent and join other born again Christians who know Christ as their personal Savior. The very group of individuals who founded this great nation of America!


I see I have stumbled my way into a CARM thread.

I'll leave you to it.

_________________
Being a Christian is not the result of an ethical choice or a lofty idea, but the encounter with an event, a person, which gives life a new horizon and a decisive direction -Pope Benedict XVI


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