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 Post subject: Re: Blasphemy or Biblical?
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 11:05 pm 
God

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Themis wrote:
gdemetz wrote:
Yea, I think he was let off easy. I won't, however, object to him just being allowed to go like that because I won't object to mercy being shown. However, you guys are right. What he did was especially bad for a man in his high office. It definitely had a negative effect on the image that latter day saints are supposed to uphold! Having said that, I would just refer you to my article here entitled, "Prophets and apostles not Perfect."


Were not suggesting that they should be perfect. The issue you are avoiding is that thousands of members had deep spiritual experiences that were generated by lies.


You are absolutely correct about that. What he did was totally wrong and inexcusable, especially for a man in his high position.


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 Post subject: Re: Blasphemy or Biblical?
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 7:33 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Themis wrote:

Were not suggesting that they should be perfect. The issue you are avoiding is that thousands of members had deep spiritual experiences that were generated by lies.


You are absolutely correct about that. What he did was totally wrong and inexcusable, especially for a man in his high position.


While I agree, you notice you didn't address the issue and why it was brought up at all. :razz:

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 Post subject: Re: Blasphemy or Biblical?
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 8:44 pm 
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Of course I did. Why was it brought up? Why else? To attack the church, as usual!


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 Post subject: Re: Blasphemy or Biblical?
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 12:33 am 
God

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gdemetz wrote:
Of course I did. Why was it brought up? Why else? To attack the church, as usual!


Does the Holy Ghost work his spiritual testifying magic through the lies of General Authorities?

[ ] Yes
[ ] No

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 Post subject: Re: Blasphemy or Biblical?
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 12:36 am 
God

Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:59 am
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Of course not!


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 Post subject: Re: Blasphemy or Biblical?
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 12:39 am 
God

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gdemetz wrote:
Of course not!


So what spirit was at play during the episodes where Dunn's words were spiritually moving for Saints across the globe?

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“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: Blasphemy or Biblical?
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 12:40 am 
God

Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:59 am
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Perhaps an evil spirit.


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 Post subject: Re: Blasphemy or Biblical?
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 12:43 am 
God

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gdemetz wrote:
Perhaps an evil spirit.


So, you believe a General Authority of the Church can tell lies publicly which generate a spiritually moving experience resulting in members believing that God is telling them that the GA is telling the truth which strengthens their testimonies?

:lol:

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“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
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Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: Blasphemy or Biblical?
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 12:44 am 
God

Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:59 am
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I already told you that what he did was very wrong! You seem to delight in that as I'm sure Satan did also!


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 Post subject: Re: Blasphemy or Biblical?
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 12:49 am 
God

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gdemetz wrote:
I already told you that what he did was very wrong! You seem to delight in that as I'm sure Satan did also!


You are missing the point.
Everybody agree's what he did was wrong so let's put that to one side.

Explain why the Holy Spirit was testifying to members that what he was saying was true.
They felt it, en masse, in exactly the way the Church teaches you should experience it when the Holy Ghost is confirming the truth.

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Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: Blasphemy or Biblical?
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 12:54 am 
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I don't believe that it was. I think many were touched by his story and were confused by those feelings.


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 Post subject: Re: Blasphemy or Biblical?
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 12:57 am 
God

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gdemetz wrote:
I don't believe that it was. I think many were touched by his story and were confused by those feelings.


People were not confused about those feelings until many years later when it came out that he had lied. That confusion was because the Holy Spirit had testified in exactly the way they had been taught it would if what they were being told was the truth from God.

The problem becomes, if you feel the spirit testifying to you of the truthfulness of a GA's words how do you know you're not being hoodwinked in exactly the same way that all those members were when Dunn spoke?

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“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
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"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: Blasphemy or Biblical?
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 1:01 am 
God

Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:59 am
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I think you are adding your own twist to things now by saying exactly the same way. Do you have references for that?


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 Post subject: Re: Blasphemy or Biblical?
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 1:06 am 
God

Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:52 am
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gdemetz wrote:
I think you are adding your own twist to things now by saying exactly the same way. Do you have references for that?


You're ducking and diving again...

The problem becomes, if you feel the spirit testifying to you of the truthfulness of a GA's words how do you know you're not being hoodwinked in exactly the same way that all those members were when Dunn spoke?

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“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
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"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: Blasphemy or Biblical?
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 1:12 am 
God

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You probably wouldn't know, but I think I would. "Without faith it is impossible to please God!"


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 Post subject: Re: Blasphemy or Biblical?
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 2:00 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
You probably wouldn't know, but I think I would. "Without faith it is impossible to please God!"


How does that answer the question?

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“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: Blasphemy or Biblical?
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 7:03 am 
God

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:43 am
Posts: 7948
gdemetz wrote:
Of course I did. Why was it brought up? Why else? To attack the church, as usual!


For myself I avoid attacking the church. That does not mean I cannot legitimately question it's claims just as I can for other religions such as Scientology. I am not knocking on your door so you certainly don't have to discuss it with me.

Quote:
Of course not!


This is more to the point. The church claims the HG is the only legitimate way to discern truth, yet here we have an example of people believing they were receiving strong signals from the HG while listening to the lies of this GA. You bring up another possibility below.

Quote:
Perhaps an evil spirit.


Of course this makes things worse since now you cannot be sure if what you have received is from Satan or God. many Christians actually believe it is Satan that is guiding LDS this way. Now below you bring up feelings

Quote:
I don't believe that it was. I think many were touched by his story and were confused by those feelings.


This I think is more accurate. The body is capable of more then we want to give it credit. The problem I see is that many like you want to believe others are confused but not them. This is very typical with emotionally based experiences and the interpretations we create from them. As a missionary if they were emotionally attached to experiences they interpreted for their religion that would interfere with LDS claims then there was little chance they would convert.

Quote:
You probably wouldn't know, but I think I would. "Without faith it is impossible to please God!"


Here we see you giving an example of they might be confused but I'm not(they had faith as did I, but not sure why you thinking you had more is going to ensure your experience must be from some divine being), and you have emotional ties to your interpretations of those feelings/emotions/spirit. It's from this I know you will not really evaluate in any way the possibility of being wrong. Most did this with Paul Dunn as with other spiritual experiences that have not always worked out well. I can see many examples in my own life of these kind of things.

An interesting point which you brought up is the idea that many are confused, which suggests that you believe the HG is close to what the body can create. The church itself has said the same thing. I wonder why if the body can create experiences close enough to confuse that the body cannot create the experience they believe is the HG? I think in the end it is just as you did where others may be confused but not me. This again I think is because we get so emotionally attached to our interpretations.

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 Post subject: Re: Blasphemy or Biblical?
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 8:19 pm 
God

Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:59 am
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Themis, I think that many in the church have never had a true experience from the Holy Ghost, and so when they get a good feeling, then they assume that it is from the Holy Ghost. I think that that is probably what happened some in the "Dunn" case. Having said that, there are legitimate experiences of the Holy Ghost bearing testimony, and it is unmistakeably scriptural. But, for someone who has had the experience to try to explain it to someone who has not, is like someone trying to tell someone else who has never flown what it is like. I have a suggestion for you and Drifting. Why don't you two, just for a few days, try to stop looking for ways to argue and try to really take Moroni's challenge seriously!


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 Post subject: Re: Blasphemy or Biblical?
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2012 11:50 pm 
God

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gdemetz wrote:
Themis, I think that many in the church have never had a true experience from the Holy Ghost, and so when they get a good feeling, then they assume that it is from the Holy Ghost.

How do you tell the difference?

Quote:
I think that that is probably what happened some in the "Dunn" case.

Except in the Dunn case it wasn't a one off, it was worldwide, over a period of decades, with whole congregations experiencing it at the same time.

Quote:
Having said that, there are legitimate experiences of the Holy Ghost bearing testimony, and it is unmistakeably scriptural.

How can you tell it is legitimate?

Quote:
But, for someone who has had the experience to try to explain it to someone who has not, is like someone trying to tell someone else who has never flown what it is like.

Then how can Missionaries explain to investigators what they should experience if, when they take Moroni's challenge the Holy Spirit testifies to them of it's truthfulness?

Quote:
I have a suggestion for you and Drifting. Why don't you two, just for a few days, try to stop looking for ways to argue and try to really take Moroni's challenge seriously!

Been there and done that.
You just choose not to believe what the Holy Spirit told me because it doesn't agree with what you want to believe...

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“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: Blasphemy or Biblical?
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 12:55 am 
God

Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:59 am
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Themis, I don't believe you have sought earnestly and prayerfully enough. Have you fasted about this?


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 Post subject: Re: Blasphemy or Biblical?
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2012 1:05 am 
God

Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 3:52 am
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gdemetz wrote:
I don't believe...



That's the point, right there...

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“We look to not only the spiritual but also the temporal, and we believe that a person who is impoverished temporally cannot blossom spiritually.”
Keith McMullin - Counsellor in Presiding Bishopric

"One, two, three...let's go shopping!"
Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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