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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 8:52 am 
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Jason Bourne wrote:
I will offer you this challenge again and it is about the 6th time. Find me one contemporary of Young that understood his AG teaching as Adam SR/JR. Till you can do so shut up about it.



Let me comment on this question.

In the following who is God?

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

And in this one?

Joh 20:27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
Joh 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Who was Thomas calling God?

If you say that Jesus is part of the Trinity then Who was Christ calling to on the cross? If indeed He is all then how did He separate on the cross? According to Tertullian who defined the trinity they are without division in condition, power, and substance.

"As if in this way also one were not All, in that All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. How they are susceptible of number without division, will be shown as our treatise proceeds."

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... ian17.html

So in order to avoid a God Sr. and A God junior you create a trinity. That is undescribable and unknowable yet a required article of faith. I will tell you that when you people can describe the trinity then you will have the mind set to understand the Adam God relationship. Until then seek answers.


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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:55 am 
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Franklin D. Richards:
Quote:
Concerning the item of doctrine alluded to by Elder Caffall and others, viz., that Adam is our Father and our God, I have to say do not trouble ourselves, neither let the Saints be troubled about that matter. The Lord has told us in a revelation which he gave through the Prophet Joseph, Jan. 19, 1841 - "I design to reveal unto my Church things which have been kept hid from before the foundation of the world, things that pertain to the dispensation of the fullness of times." (D&C 124:41) I would like to know where you will find scriptures to prove those things, by which have never before been revealed. Some feel their bounded duty to prove everything which belongs to our faith from the Bible, but I do not, and I will excuse you from all obligation to prove this from the Old Scriptures, for you cannot, if you try. You may bring much collateral evidence from the Bible and other revelations that will dissipate objections, and serve to strengthen the position, but to directly and substantially prove it, as the world requires and as we can the first principles, it will puzzle you to do it, and from henceforth we may expect more and more of the word of the Lord giving us instructions which are nowhere written in the Old Scriptures. If we feel ourselves, and teach the Saints or the people generally, that we are only to believe that which can be proved from the scriptures, we shall never know much of the Lord ourselves, nor be able to teach the children of men to any very considerable extent. If as Elder Caffall remarked, there are those who are waiting at the door of the Church for this objection to be removed, tell such, the prophet and apostle Brigham has declared it, and that is the word of the lord. That is vastly stronger proof than Christendom can give for much that they profess to believe. Tell the Saints that if this stone does not seem to fit into the great building of their faith just now, to roll it aside. You can help them roll it out of their way so that they will be but a short time till they will find a place in their building where no other stone will fit; then it will be on hand all right, and will come into its place in the building without the sound of hammer or chisel.


Seems like even back then they realized the Bible conflicted with Adam-God

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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 10:59 am 
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I will give you a few words doctrine, upon which there has been much inquiry, and with regard to which considerable ignorance exists. Brother Watt will write it, but it is not my intention to have it published; therefore pay good attention,
and store it up in your memories. Some years ago, I advanced a doctrine with regard to Adam being our Father and God.
That will be a curse to many of the Elders of Israel, because of their folly with regard to it. They yet grovel in darkness - and
will. It is one of the most glorious revelations [concerning] the economy of heaven, yet the world hold it [in] derision. Had I
revealed the doctrine of Baptism for the Dead instead of Joseph Smith, there are men around me who would have
ridiculed the idea until dooms day. But they are ignorant and stupid like the dumb ass.


Brigham Young

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John Taylor, husband of 3 wives, 15 Nov 1844

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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:02 am 
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Quote:
Bishop Heber Bennion 1920
Supplement to Gospel Problems, 8-9, 13
It seems strange that people will believe that `as man now is, God once was, and that as God now is, man may be'; that
`God is an exalted man' and still repudiate the doctrine of Adam-God. These incredulous people believe that Elohim,
Jehovah and Michael (Adam) the `Father of all living,' created the world and yet cannot believe that He is the God of this
world. It seems presumptuous indeed for them to ever aspire to be the God of anything, if Adam cannot be the God of the
world he created and peopled. If a man is not to become the God of his own posterity what will he be the God of?

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The Law of the land and the rules of the church do not allow one man to have more than one wife alive at once.
John Taylor, husband of 3 wives, 15 Nov 1844

"I consider them Christian not because of the church they go to on Sunday, but because of how they treat their fellow human beings." Ceeboo


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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:21 am 
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Fence Sitter wrote:
Seems like even back then they realized the Bible conflicted with Adam-God



Many details about God are left out in scripture. I will just wait and find out later. I see no rush to find out. It is what it is and I will not change a thing. All of this is a stumbling block for those who wish to stumble. Where is the spiritual interest in the Adam God discussion, I find none but I do find lots of worldly interest. This kind of stuff does not interest me. But I do wonder why some are so fixated by it.


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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:50 am 
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Franktalk wrote:
Fence Sitter wrote:
Seems like even back then they realized the Bible conflicted with Adam-God



Many details about God are left out in scripture. I will just wait and find out later. I see no rush to find out. It is what it is and I will not change a thing. All of this is a stumbling block for those who wish to stumble. Where is the spiritual interest in the Adam God discussion, I find none but I do find lots of worldly interest. This kind of stuff does not interest me. But I do wonder why some are so fixated by it.


Frank,

You find no spiritual dimension in Adam/God because you reject it, and not only do you reject it you reject its historicity. Those that rejected it when it was being taught (like Orson Pratt) made similar arguments because they knew that outright denial of Adam God meant censure by BY. Basically Orson Pratt apologized for contradicting BY and said he would keep his theological opinions to himself and let it all work out in the hereafter.

If BY was right about Adam-God, theologically it changes a lot.

Your definition of a stumbling block here seems to be some one who disagrees with you on this issue.

You're spending a lot of time refuting something that does not interest you.

History is interesting.

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The Law of the land and the rules of the church do not allow one man to have more than one wife alive at once.
John Taylor, husband of 3 wives, 15 Nov 1844

"I consider them Christian not because of the church they go to on Sunday, but because of how they treat their fellow human beings." Ceeboo


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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:36 pm 
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Do you know the exact reasons why Orson or others objected to it? It may have been because Brigham Young taught that Adam was a god over us! Do you think Brigham Young is a complete idiot, who would one day teach that Adam, as well as all of us are the offspring of our Heavenly Father as I have plainly quoted, and the next day state that Adam is our Heavenly Father?!? That assumption is ridiculous!!!


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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:14 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Do you know the exact reasons why Orson or others objected to it? It may have been because Brigham Young taught that Adam was a god over us! Do you think Brigham Young is a complete idiot, who would one day teach that Adam, as well as all of us are the offspring of our Heavenly Father as I have plainly quoted, and the next day state that Adam is our Heavenly Father?!? That assumption is ridiculous!!!


Well, his teachings about black people are pretty explicit and they seem pretty idiotic to me.

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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:03 am 
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Brigham Young JD 11:62

Quote:
The kingdoms he possesses and rules over are his own progeny. Every man who is faithful and gets a salvation and
glory, and becomes a King of kings and Lord of lords, or a Father of fathers; it will be by the increase of his own progeny,
Our Father and God rules over his own children. Wherever there is a God in all the eternities possessing a kingdom and
glory and power it is by means of his own progeny.


Journal of L. John Nuttall
Quote:
Adam was an immortal being when he came. On this earth he had lived on an earth similar to ours he had received the Priesthood and the Keys thereof. and had been faithful in all things and gained his resurrection and his exaltation and was crowned with glory immortality and eternal lives and was numbered with the Gods for such he became through his faithfulness. and had begotten all the spirit that was to come to this earth. and Eve our common Mother who is the mother of all living bore those spirits in the celestial world. And when this earth was organized by Elohim. Jehovah & Michael who is Adam our common Father. Adam & Eve had the privilege to continue the work of Progression. consequently came to this earth and commenced the great work of forming tabernacles for those spirits to dwell in.

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The Law of the land and the rules of the church do not allow one man to have more than one wife alive at once.
John Taylor, husband of 3 wives, 15 Nov 1844

"I consider them Christian not because of the church they go to on Sunday, but because of how they treat their fellow human beings." Ceeboo


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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:30 pm 
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William Clayton in a letter to BY regarding the controversy and Orson Pratt:

Quote:
There is also another subject which has occupied much of the time, and in which the difference in opinion seems to be wider, and more firmly established than the baby resurrection; and that is in regard to Adam's coming on this earth; whether he came here with a resurrected body and became mortal by eating the fruits of the earth which are earthy, or he was created direct (that is his mortal tabernacle) from the dust of the earth, according to the popular opinion of the world. On this subject brother Pratt and mysel( have rather locked horns, he holding to the latter opinion, and I firmly believing the former; but there can be no difficulty between us, as he is my superior and I shall not argue against him; but if it were an equal I should be apt to speak my feelings in full. There are difficulties on both sides, take it which way we will, and he is unwilling to express anything more than his opinion on the subject.

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The Law of the land and the rules of the church do not allow one man to have more than one wife alive at once.
John Taylor, husband of 3 wives, 15 Nov 1844

"I consider them Christian not because of the church they go to on Sunday, but because of how they treat their fellow human beings." Ceeboo


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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:23 pm 
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These are interesting quotes, Fence Sitter, showing how even certain brethren in the church had varying opinions concerning those confusing statements by confusing statements by Brigham Young.


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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:33 pm 
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Actually, according to that last quote, both of the brethren were wrong since Adam was never de-resurrected, nor was he sprung out of the earth cartoon style, but he was as Luke 3:38 and Moses 6:22 state, the son of God (Elohim). Also, I will not attempt to polish the church's image at the expense of the truth as the CES and certain other apologists seem to do. Yes, Brigham Young did teach that the blacks were cursed. However, so were many other people such as the Lamanites and, in fact, all the gentile nations. However, this is not due to God being a racist. It was due to our pre-mortal judgment. That is why I was born as a poor redneck. LOL!


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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 6:23 am 
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Adam is God. Or at least one of the Gods.

Quote:
1 And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth.
2 And the earth, after it was formed, was empty and desolate, because they had not formed anything but the earth; and darkness reigned upon the face of the deep, and the Spirit of the Gods was brooding upon the face of the waters.
3 And they (the Gods) said: Let there be light; and there was light.
4 And they (the Gods) comprehended the light, for it was bright; and they divided the light, or caused it to be divided, from the darkness.
5 And the Gods called the light Day, and the darkness they called Night. And it came to pass that from the evening until morning they called night; and from the morning until the evening they called day; and this was the first, or the beginning, of that which they called day and night.
6 And the Gods also said: Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and it shall divide the waters from the waters.
7 And the Gods ordered the expanse, so that it divided the waters which were under the expanse from the waters which were above the expanse; and it was so, even as they ordered.
8 And the Gods called the expanse, Heaven. And it came to pass that it was from evening until morning that they called night; and it came to pass that it was from morning until evening that they called day; and this was the second time that they called night and day.
9 And the Gods ordered, saying: Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto bone place, and let the earth come up dry; and it was so as they ordered;
10 And the Gods pronounced the dry land, Earth; and the gathering together of the waters, pronounced they, Great Waters; and the Gods saw that they were obeyed.
11 And the Gods said: Let us prepare the earth to bring forth grass; the herb yielding seed; the fruit tree yielding fruit, after his kind, whose seed in itself yieldeth its own likeness upon the earth; and it was so, even as they ordered.
12 And the Gods organized the earth to bring forth grass from its own seed, and the herb to bring forth herb from its own seed, yielding seed after his kind; and the earth to bring forth the tree from its own seed, yielding fruit, whose seed could only bring forth the same in itself, after his kind; and the Gods saw that they were obeyed.


So we can see from LDS scripture that Adam was one of the God's because it was he, under his old name of Michael, that created the earth along with one of the other Gods.

Adam-God is not a theory it is a doctrinal fact.

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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:00 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
These are interesting quotes, Fence Sitter, showing how even certain brethren in the church had varying opinions concerning those confusing statements by confusing statements by Brigham Young.


I think the debate going on at the time BY was teaching Adam-God was very interesting and, like now, there was a lot of opinions from both sides, though BY tended to crush anyone who publicly disagreed with him. If anything, Orson Pratt's theology was more radical than BY's. By introducing the concept of worshiping Divine attributes Pratt's is attempting, in my opinion, to reconcile what he thought Joseph Smith taught with Brigham' attempt to insert Adam as a God between Elohim and us. That way one could worship a single ultimate principal and have the plurality of Gods that Adam God embodied.

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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 2:36 am 
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Hi Fence Sitter! I have been looking into this Adam-God theory quite a bit lately, and I have seen so many quotes from Brigham Young and his contemporaries. I have now come to the conclusion that the Elden Watson explanation is insufficient, and as Bruce McConkie previously stated; "Brigham Young contradicted Brigham Young." At times he would state inspirational truths concerning this which were consistent with the scriptures. However, he also apparently believed in the "decelestialization" and "unresurrection" of Adam and Eve. However, as I have written in another place here, prophets and apostles can sometimes be wrong. I agree totally with the following comments by president Joseph F. Smith in his letter which was drafted by president Woodruff:

"President Young no doubt expressed his personal opinions or views. What he said was not given as a revelation or commandment from the Lord. The doctrine was never submitted to the councils of the priesthood nor to the church for approval or ratification and was never formally or otherwise binding upon the church nor upon the consciences of any of the members thereof."

So, it seems like BC is making good points when he always states that something is not really church doctrine.


Last edited by gdemetz on Sun May 06, 2012 11:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 10:21 am 
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gdemetz,

The number of references to Adam God being taught, supported, or mentioned is well into the thousands. To focus on BY 1852 speech is to glimpse only a very small portion of the issue.

I think there are two primary reasons that Brigham Young contradicted himself about Adam God.

First would be he was trying to reveal new doctrine and was working it out as he went. (If Orson Pratt had been prophet instead of BY we might be talking about the "Attribute God theory" now instead of Adam God.) I would be interested to see if anyone has examined how exposed BY was to Cabala and Hermeticism and if, like Joseph Smith before him, he was trying to incorporate those traditions into Mormonism via his Adam God teachings. There are actually a few accounts where BY claims that Adam God was taught by Joseph Smith.

Secondly I think, after a time, say around 1860ish, BY realized Adam God was not only a lightning rod for criticism from outside the Church, it also was not being enthusiastically accepted by the membership. As a result I think he reverted to teaching the more orthodox view of God publicly while he continued to teach Adam God privately right up until the end of his life when he inserted it into the temple ritual at St George.

While future prophets/apostles may claim it was not revelation from the Lord, I think it is pretty clear BY thought it was, and in BY's time he really didn't ask approval from anyone else, it was his way or out of the Church. That he taught it at the temple is indication enough he considered it doctrine.

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The Law of the land and the rules of the church do not allow one man to have more than one wife alive at once.
John Taylor, husband of 3 wives, 15 Nov 1844

"I consider them Christian not because of the church they go to on Sunday, but because of how they treat their fellow human beings." Ceeboo


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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 12:15 am 
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Yea, he obviously really believed it, but was wrong. That really shook up a member on another blog, but I told him that prophets and apostles weren't perfect, but that God would right the ship eventually as he did with Nathan when Nathan told David to build a temple, and God had to correct him about that. However, that was done much faster since God did not want David to have a hand in building the temple at all.


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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 4:16 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Yea, he obviously really believed it, but was wrong. That really shook up a member on another blog, but I told him that prophets and apostles weren't perfect, but that God would right the ship eventually as he did with Nathan when Nathan told David to build a temple, and God had to correct him about that. However, that was done much faster since God did not want David to have a hand in building the temple at all.



Hmmm...so for a period of time the Prophet BY led the Church astray and, due to their ongoing imperfection, Prophets can lead us astray today? Doesn't sound like what I was taught...

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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 7:52 pm 
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Peter lad the church astray for a while as he sided with the Jews in not wanting the uncircumsized gentiles to be baptized, and finally Paul"withstood him to his face." Later, Peter received a vision confirming that Paul was right. God will always eventually right the ship.


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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2012 8:52 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
Peter lad the church astray for a while as he sided with the Jews in not wanting the uncircumsized gentiles to be baptized, and finally Paul"withstood him to his face." Later, Peter received a vision confirming that Paul was right. God will always eventually right the ship.


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 Post subject: Re: The "Adam-God Theory"
PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2012 11:27 pm 
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You have a great sense of humor! I love some of your pictures!


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