When I really need someone I hope they don't delegate the job to God.

Your posts really do show a lack of understanding of the world around you. Even many religious people can understand the worth of the individual or group doesn't need to come from God. It's a pitiful attempt to attack those you think do not believe as you do. Very weak.

I would grab the baby and the ten year old. I am strong enough to carry both easily. I also doubt one could know for sure, so I would hope for time to come back and get the others, or that others may come in and help as well. Fortunately almost everyone in life does not have to make these kind of choices. I certainly hope sheryl is not serious, since her repose is one of the dumbest things I have read. Even God would want you to act instead of just sitting there and talking.

Really

Live birth abortions

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tom-blumer ... -baby-live

Who cares

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/30105703/ ... ne-helped/

value of life

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_value
http://ezekielcountdown.wordpress.com/2 ... -no-value/
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 415AAR2WoD

I know the world is full of evil. You may choose to look the other way.

Thank you for demonstrating again your lack of understanding. You yet again don't get what people are saying, and are in your own little world. Your links are irrelevant to what I said. Try again.

This is my first thought as well but I would ask for guidance on the way in. The primary thing to consider is the life of those people. That life is not the flesh and bones but spirit that resides inside. If I could help in any way to bring one of those people to God then of course I would lay down my life. We don't seek these events in our life but when they do happen we are not supposed to run from them.

Thank you for your thoughts.

Frank

Where I can see both world views (mine and yours) you can only see yours. This is why everything I say makes no sense to you.

I do not know how handicapped you are mentally so I will tend to just give you milk to drink. I am sure anything else I may say would indeed fly right on by.

It seems you never understand what other people are saying. My earlier point was that people find value without God(whether he exists or not). You come back with links that have nothing really to do with my point. You clearly have no idea what my world view is, and just make assumptions of what you want to view everyone who may not hold to some of your beliefs. This of course is still your own world view and shows lack of understanding of other views. If you know Consig, he is an active believing LDS who clearly can see other views. You might try talking to him for help. :)



They would not be listening to you. They would only think, shut up and get us out of here you idiot.

In Frantalks scenario we have seen two types of response.

The spiritual response to the problem saves nobody. They all die.

In the rational, physical response two or three people are saved, minimum.

Hmmm...

In my response I save the baby. That baby goes on to be a leading scientist that develops a solution to world hunger, eradicating child famine from the planet.

The spiritualists amongst us would have sat around talking and praying whilst that baby burned, losing the chance for that baby's impact on humanity.

Your spiritualism has the same impact as peeing yourself in your trousers. You feel all the warmth but nobody else notices.

The difference between you and me is the emotional response to death. It appears that death is to be avoided at all cost in your view. But death is a doorway in my view. Just how are we to look at death?

Heb 2:15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days; be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

Heb 13:6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.

2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Some really good common-sense posts here! Many responding to Frank's illogical, imaginings. . . Just be patient with him, as you are, and I think, that he might find the balm and assurance that others are helping him to understand that in his present state of arrogance he is simply in denial.

I have faced death many times in my life. Something always stepped in and saved me. But before that happened I was ready to end this existence and move along. I did not fear death. One day it will be my time and nothing will stop it. I welcome the end of this path and the start of a new one. I hope to do many things before that day arrives but I accept the will of God. My will does not matter. To become a new creature and learn all of those things which are beyond our imagination is a goal we all should have.

Why is it so important to teach me the truth of what you believe? Why is it so important to spend your time chatting with someone you think is near mad? Is the value in teaching me or is it in the social connection you have with others that share the same mind set you have? It is like a game in which each player tries to get the best digs in and make the finest points. All of this is of the world. The world is such a limited medium. I feel trapped here and have this feeling that communication is way more than we can imagine outside of this flesh.

I wish I could share the experiences I have had. I can talk about them but they fall as empty words in a vacuum of space. I think that one of the things we are to learn is the frustration of trying to get another to learn anything. We exist in a small bubble and we at best cast messages out like a bottle in the sea. Taken by faith and rejected by ignorance. I know how little I know.

No, the difference between you and me is that when an opportunity to save someone from death was presented I took that opportunity, you didn't.

I know that's your view. I accept that's your view. But your view seems to mean you ignore doing things in life. In your scenario your view of death being a door meant you ignored the chance of saving someone in favour of your (sheryl'), but not necessarily their, spiritual view of the world.

How are we to look at death? Well we have a choice don't we.
You wring your hands and try and help yourself feel good about dying by reading scriptures and trying to find a feeling you ascribe to being spiritual, fair enough that's your choice.

I focus on living life as fully as I can, and helping others around me live life as fully as they can. We will both end up dead, but I will have a smile on my face and a clear conscience when I go. People will tell funny stories at my funeral and laugh about the times we had and the good things (and the daft things) we did together.
I get my joy through being with, doing things with and helping other people (especally family and friends) through good times and bad, by physically doing things.

Ironic

There is a difference between spiritual death and death of the flesh. I place a higher value on anything related to spiritual death but not so with death of the flesh. That does not mean I believe in killing people in some random act of violence. The Kingdom of God is with us today, we can exist in a spiritual state as well as the flesh. When we move along we will change and be way more aware of those things that seem like dreams to us today. But life here will appear to us to be a dream that we had at some point in the past. In a similar way we view our experiences of yesterday the same way. The memories are images and the emotions can be relived but they are not real as we perceive reality.

It seems that you have a problem with my priorities in life. We all do view this existence in different ways. What I see as important you may feel is of no value at all.

I don't understand why you are so intent on pigeon holing posters.

Frank, I have no problems with your priorities at all.
Fact is, I don't care about them. They are not important to me.
I'm happy enough to discuss them, but spirituality seems a very selfish emotional track to ride along.

I am trying to understand what benefit 'walking in the spirit' has, other than to make you feel a bit better about yourself. So far I can't see anything tangible.

First, I would marvel at finding a place where all the people, other than myself, were basically immobile.

I would have the pregnant woman carry the baby in her arms, I would carry them both, and the ten year old would hobble, using me for support.

Having worked in counselling I know from experience that both the survivors and the rescuer need grief counselling about the person(s) not saved.

What I don't understand is what your question has to do with the topic? Or is it designed for a one person audience?

Frank is trying to make the case for spirituality being more important than anything physical. In this example he (and Sheryl) think it more important to sit with the people and give them spiritual comfort as opposed to saving any of them.

Darwin said nothing about "dust self-organizing". Lee Smolin, theoretical physicist, in his book "Life of the Cosmos" uses such terminology. Is that what you're referring to?

Is the person who comes up with an idea the defining paradigm for worship? Moses should then be worshipped for the Books of Moses. Joseph Smith for the Book of Mormon (or Moroni, if you so wish). Newton for the theory of gravity. And I should be worshipped for my sperm donation that created my kids.

I, for one, would never run into a burning building just because it is a burning building. I assumed in the scenario that someone had shouted out, either in pain or in the hope of being saved. If someone is calling out for help, I will also assume that they do, in fact, want help.

If I was a believing Christian/Moslim/Buddhist would I then just sit down with the "soon-to-be-burned-alive" victims and say, "In your best interest I am not going to try to save you???????" Would not a very "heated" discussion (pun intended) follow over the merits of dying now or dying later?

Should they accept my premise (my outstandlingly selfish premise, I might add) that their "being burned alive" was in their own best interest, would I comfort them with hearing their "death-bed confessions"? The baby in swaddling presumably could not confess....nor need to....nor be able to have the free will to choose to be burnt alive....(I presumably am willing to make the babies decision, in proxy, for it). The baby in the womb could not, unless through ventriloquism or saintly protection, speak for itself. (Again, I take that responsibility upon myself.) Whose confession would I hear first?

Does anyone else feel that this is a bullcrap discussion? We might as well be discussing how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I think this is a "straw man", and a burning straw man, at that.