Hi Frank!



I believe we are always on the spiritual path. We exist, so we are part of creation and part of the intent for creation.

But I understand what you are asking. :)

In retrospect I would say the question is whether we are on the spiritual path consciously or unconsciously. Aware or unaware.

If unconsciously, then we are edged along by the law, for the law still stands for all creation.

If however, we are on the path consciously, then we might be able to invoke some Grace, and quicken our progress on the Path. The more aware we are of the workings of creation, the more consciously we can walk the path.

Gosh, in thinking about your question, the answer today is today. Because today I walk path with the greatest awareness I have thus far had. Tomorrow I might say tomorrow.

Though I can say that things quickened intensely for me about 11 years, when I had my own 'private' Road to Damascus experience. I called myself Christian before then, was a Bible teacher and spent a lot of time at my church and in prayer and study. But what happened that day 11 years ago changed everything. It is kinda like Saul...he thought he knew God from studying scripture, but a vision revealed just how off he was.

Even after this, it took me 7 years wandering around trying to find fellowship with like-minded, before I found my brothers and sisters here on earth.



Well said, Frank.



As Paul prophesied the early church had to fall. My tradition dates back to the early church, but went underground when the Universal Church began to have its way.

We can call it part of the 'remnant' that God promised to always maintain in this world.

During the years of Apostasy, we were hidden within the Catholic Church. In the 1700s we were able to come out of her, and trace our lineage back that far.

We are a collection of small home churches, mystical Christians.



And likewise may you be kept from temptations.

Sheryl

You have an interesting interpretation of those scriptures FrankTalk. It's not how most theologians interpret it, or the church, but it is interesting. What do you think of the JST of Revelation 12:6 (12:5 of the JST)?

Might I suggest you stop looking for man for answers about God and ask directly. You may have to wait. I have waited as long as a year for answers.

I have not been able to look up the JST yet but I will.

How do you think the church interprets Romans 10 and 11?

When I read scriptures I reread each verse as many times as necessary to fully understand it. I recheck who is being talked about. I recheck the subject on each verse. Then I look for implied meaning. Then I look for what is not said. Each verse must be in harmony with all the others around it. If not then reread it again and again. If I hit a wall then let it go and come back later. Pray about the subject. Then look up other passages that talk about the same subject. It took me over a month to get through Romans 10 and 11.

Yes FrankTalk, I have done that. The most spiritual experience, of the few I've had in my life, is when I was working on my commentary for the Book of Revelation. I will have to get back to you on those scriptures from Romans.

I have had many experiences but I will tell you that most were telling me I was going the right direction not that I was thinking the right truth. To uncover truth from scripture is hard work. At least for me it is. Just to read Revelation is a blessing so be careful about that good feeling one gets while reading it. Many people feel great about their views on Revelation but many are different yet there is but one truth. Even though in my view I believe I don't think I have it all right and I accept that I could be all wrong. Any interpretation must take into account all of scripture and all must be consistent.

gdemetz,

I looked the JST. There are two times that the Jews flee from Jerusalem. One has already taken place. This is when the converted Jews left Jerusalem when it was surrounded by the Romans armies in 70 AD. The second time will be at the midpoint of the Tribulation and the start of the Great Tribulation. This is a period of 3 1/2 years. But scripture does not say when they come back to Jerusalem. If the 1260 years is correct then the Jews stay in Petra for 1260 years. This means they stay there through the Millennium and beyond. I don't see how this changes anything. But the original reading would have them in Petra just for the 3 1/2 years.

Franktalk -

Just a FYI. The Book of Revelation was written in code and symbolism on purpose. It is meant to be read as such and those that speak in certainty and concrete terms as far as future events including times and dates of when certain events will occur should not be trusted. That is not what God intended; otherwise, he would have spoken in unambiguous language as he did to the Brother of Jared (and his words were sealed).

The 42 months, the times, time and one half, as well as the 1260 days spoken of in the 12th chapter of Revelation all refer to the same period of apostasy which in the JST is shown as 1260 years. I am very certain about the 13th chapter of Revelation and the experience which I had, especially since I also received a burning confirmation again which I saw that my revelation was confirmed by that obscure reference in "Mormon Doctrine." This experience was an absolute "no doubter." You can read it again if you like. My prior posts are on page 7 of this topic.

I'm sure you feel what occurred is true. However, feelings can never be trusted. You might have just had heartburn (or food poisoning). If the Lord showed you the future events and had you write them down the description in plain language, then I'd be interested. As far as I believe, the Lord doesn't work through feelings and obscure references that are open to interpretation. For example, Joseph Smith saw God, saw angels, and possessed Gold plates. These were real events and definitive and not feelings and obscure references.

May I ask for firemen record?

Wrong again. "Did not our hearts burn within us?" Luke 24:32

Ummm, you don't understand the scriptures very well. Luke 24:32 does not pertain to how revelation was received and you are abusing the context in which it was used. In Luke, they are speaking about seeing Jesus. Did you see God (Jesus in this case)? My guess is no. And clearly, they did not repeat teaching this as doctrine in other parts of the NT. In fact, in the OT Jeremiah states, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and is desperately wicked: who can know it?” (Jeremiah 17:9) All other occurances when the Holy Ghost appears, it is made manifest to everyone that is present through the gifts of the Spirit (such as on the day of Pentecost).

So unless you saw God and he revealed the future to you, or I experience the gifts of the Spirit; your experience has no basis in scripture and should not be believed.

No, you are wrong. That was a personal revelation to them by the Holy Ghost which witnessed the truth to them in this manner, but maybe you don't understand that since obviously you haven't had that experience.

To argue over the Holy Ghost is a waste of time. People either are spiritual or not. But I will tell you that those who are finding their way will make many wrong turns and will interpret the Spirit in many ways. So keep seeking but don't get to sure of yourself. And most of all ignore those who do not have a spiritual bone in their body.

Many will try and distract you. The world will hate you. But you still have some attachment to scholars. This is not a good thing. Cast off the ideas of men. Men will lead you to error. And be careful with scripture. There are some passages where the men are in error yet the passage does not clearly say so. You must read all of scripture as one truth. Things that don't fit don't fit for a reason.

For example:

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

What you must figure out for yourself is that your knowledge will get better over time. And at each step all of scripture will change as you understand more and more. Things you thought you knew well will stand on their head but the whole will start to come into focus. The guide of the Spirit is a path. Don't assume you have it right. If you do then you will stop seeking. That is of man. Much of scripture has at least two surface understandings. The milk level and the meat level. For instance can you tell me why Joseph Smith changed 1260 days into 1260 years? Unless you know that you will not know how to interpret the 1260 years. Step back and assume you know nothing. Scripture comes from the mind of God which is very complex. You will never know it all. We all seek but we all are weak and limited.

John 21:18
Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

Here Christ is talking to Peter. He tells him that when (future) he is old he will walk a path that another will choose for him. But the Peter standing before Christ is doing his own will. Therefore all of what Peter does should be checked to see if it is Peter's will or God's. So scripture tells us this here but where Peter is doing things like killing Christ sheep the passage is left for us to figure out. So without the whole of scripture we are lost.

I take the Bible quite literally except where it indicates that I should not. You are free to read it any way you choose.

People either think or not.

People either believe fairy tales or not.

Eternal truths.

They didn't receive the Holy Ghost till the day of Pentecost (Acts 1:4-5, 2). They felt that way because God (Christ) was with them. So, your claim it was the Holy Ghost again just confirms your appalling lack of knowledge and why your feelings are not from God, but somewhere else.

Let me get this straight, you take the Book of Revelation (and the Bible) literally? If that is accurate, wow, am I ever going to have some fun with you. If you really feel that way, I have a couple of hundred questions about it that is going to make you look completely ridiculous. I'll start dropping questions in here now I know that.

Let's start with some easy ones for now. There are two accounts for the creation of the world in Genesis (Genesis 1 and Genesis 2). Which one is accurate and pertains to how the world was actually created? Next, do you really believe the world was created in 6 days as the Bible literally claims? Do you believe that Adam and Eve were the first human beings on Earth even though evolution clearly indicates otherwise?

Hello friends!

As we begin to awaken we begin to see how 'small' our minds are - what a tiny little perspective they have - defining everything and anything according to each's itsy bitsy experience in time and space - which is actually filled with shadow and distortion.

And so to think that we can accurately interpret scripture with this teeny tiny clouded mind is a bit foolish.

If I might also remind that Jesus never told us to interpret scripture, but attacked those who made such their life career - saying that you can read and study scripture all you want, but that does not mean that you will be able to see what scripture is talking about in this world, even if it is standing right in front of you.

As example, the Pharisees spent their life studying and interpreting scripture, but they could not see the Messiah standing right in front of them.

We have the same thing occurring right now, right underneath the noses of those who are busy interpreting scripture, yet they cannot see it. The world's main religions cannot even see it. The Second Coming.

Consider the First Coming. The Pharisees interpreted scripture and with their teeny tiny mind, they analyzed and concluded what the Messiah would look like, when he would come. His actual appearing in this world looked nothing like they anticipated, so they did not recognize it. And if we think long and hard, we might also realize that the first coming of the Messiah was not widely accepted until long after it occurred, when many could look back and say, yes that is what happened! Typically, we cannot interpret prophecy accurately as it is happening, but only in retrospect, for unless we are in intimate relationship with God, we are not going to see as something unfolds. History reveals this verity. Israel had all the prophecies about the Messiah in their hands, but could not see them occur in time and space.

I do though believe and have seen that study and contemplation of scripture draws us closer to God and His Kingdom, because of our longing and reaching with our minds and hearts, through Holy Scripture, to touch God. When we interpret scripture though, we are not reaching and longing for God, drawing nearer, we are instead trying to pull God out of the infinite and place him in a finite box, make him our little pet via our teeny tiny interpretation of Holy Scripture. (Hey I am not pointing fingers, for I have done the same thing! I am pointing out how foolish we are for doing so. How blind we are to think that we can understand what mystics write about their visionary experiences without any such experience ourselves.)

And so we can busy ourselves interpreting scripture, convincing ourselves that we can see though we cannot, or we can busy ourselves reaching and longing to draw nearer to God. I believe those committed to the latter will be able to see the Second Coming is already occurring.

Shalom!

Sheryl

LOL Sure is. If they don't agree with me then it wasn't the HG speaking to them. Fun to watch the fireworks here about it. Classic example of just how unreliable it really is, and whether it really is from some unseen being or just yourself.

That's a very poor assumption. If God didn't think we could understand him, why speak to man at all? In fact, how did we even get scripture in the first place if man is incapable of understanding God with our tiny minds?
You misunderstand why the Pharisees missed it. They let their own biases and preconceptions get in the way. This was not true of everyone though. Many welcomed the arrival of the Messiah, even when he was very young. Don't forget the 3 wise men and there were many others that recognized him as well.
Many have announced the Second Coming throughout the centuries, but if you understand the scriptures you realize that it doesn't matter when the Lord is coming (or it shouldn't matter). What matters is how you conduct your life and what your relationship is with the Lord. After all, you might get hit by a bus tomorrow and meet the Lord then. That is the key to Second Coming of the Lord and the kind of mindset you should have in preparing for his arrival.