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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 4:03 am 
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The other day I was reading 2 Peter which I have done for at least a hundred times and it occurred to me that it may be a foreshadow of the restoration of the Gospel and the LDS church. I saw the comments about the flood and the scientific view of uniformitarianism as a time stamp. When I checked I found that Charles Lyell's book on geology which popularized uniformitarianism was published the same year as the book of Mormon. I find that interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:48 am 
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After doing some research I found that Charles Lyell's book Principles of Geology was published in Jan 1830. As it happens the Book of Mormon was published Jan 1830. Isn't it odd that what I thought of as a time stamp in 2 Peter lines up with the restored Church. How odd indeed.


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:50 pm 
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bcuzbcuz wrote:

Frank, both you and Sheryl have talked about the spiritual versus the physical world. What is your stance on the defense of home and family laws that exist in the US? The recent killing of Trayvon Martin in Florida, with the killer being free because of the "Stand Your Ground" legislation fills the news. Do you support the necessity of having a handgun for family protection? Do you own weapons yourself? What about you, Sheryl? Does your family own guns?


Sorry for the delay, but I found your question to be in line with thoughts that are arising today.

Jesus brought in a whole different idea of 'defending one's property'.

He taught to turn the other cheek.

To give to those who seek to steal from you.

To not resist evil.

All of these things seem nonsensical, indeed! For humanity was not and for most not ready yet for what Christ grounded in this world 2000 years ago.

Last night, I watched a tape of some negative thoughts being shared in regards to homosexuality by a well known public figure. This brought to mind the killing of Trayvon Martin. Because of the way the Trayvon presented himself in this world, with black skin, wearing a hoodie, walking through a neighborhood at dark, he appeared to his killer and probably to many others as a threatening figure and so in defense of a perceived threat, he was shot at and killed. But a closer looked revealed that he was not harmful to society at all. In fact it was the defensive act taken against him that became harmful.

I think the same thing is happening with that stand being taken against homosexuality. It dresses and walks publicly, giving the appearance, by the perspective of some, to be harmful to society. And so some feel compelled to come out and speak in defense of this perceived evil that will harm society. But a closer look will certainly reveal that homosexuality is not a threat (as it was in biblical times) to the fabric of society, in fact it has a positive influence.

Now one might say that the defensive action of shooting someone with a gun is different that a defensive action of shooting someone with words. But given the teachings of Jesus, I beg to differ. Check out [url=Matthew 5:20-22]Matthew 5[/url]. We murder with our words just the same as we can murder with a gun.

And so I offer that we are all murders, murdering others with our words, feeling justified because of a perceived threat, a threat to ourselves which Jesus, 2000 years ago, taught us is nonexistent.

We sin, we speak poorly of others, even react physically defensively, because we perceive something as being a threat to us, Jesus taught us that this is wrong. No one can actually harm who we really are.

It is because we believe the lie and are deluding into thinking we need to defend our selves, that we sin.

Shalom!

Sheryl


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:46 pm 
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Hi Sheryl,

I have often pondered this very thing. I have conflicts on this issue. Jesus said that we would all save an animal that fell into a ditch even on the Sabbath. So if we can save an animal we can also save our family if it is in peril. But where does one draw the line? If we see someone as a threat can we act even though we know that sometime we may be in error? I have to say it all boils down to intent. If our desire is to kill then it is wrong but if we use lethal force to protect it is right? But that too can be all screwed up. Many people have fought wars one country with another. Many of these were from a perceived threat of land, goods, religion, and culture to name a few. Even Hitler had what he thought were noble reasons for doing what he did. I think that many of our reasons are good but many are bad. What I know for sure is that each of us learns from our own actions and the actions of others. I guess what is important is not to repeat errors.


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:55 pm 
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Sheryl, thank You for your thoughts re the shooting & on homosexuality! I readily say "Amen"!
Would like to say more, but out-of-town family just came in... Maybe later as your understanding of really Jesus stuff runs counter to the old-time-religion stuff that tends to contaminate humanity with fear and loathing...
Highest regards, Roger


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:57 pm 
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Franktalk wrote:
Hi Sheryl,

I have often pondered this very thing. I have conflicts on this issue. Jesus said that we would all save an animal that fell into a ditch even on the Sabbath. So if we can save an animal we can also save our family if it is in peril. But where does one draw the line? If we see someone as a threat can we act even though we know that sometime we may be in error? I have to say it all boils down to intent. If our desire is to kill then it is wrong but if we use lethal force to protect it is right? But that too can be all screwed up. Many people have fought wars one country with another. Many of these were from a perceived threat of land, goods, religion, and culture to name a few. Even Hitler had what he thought were noble reasons for doing what he did. I think that many of our reasons are good but many are bad. What I know for sure is that each of us learns from our own actions and the actions of others. I guess what is important is not to repeat errors.


You are right Frank in what you are implying: things are not as black and white as they might seem. What is right and good is not absolute. What might be good in one situation might be evil in another, and so we are to pray for wisdom. It is Wisdom, God's Wisdom that allows us to discern what is right and good, what is best, in a given situation.

And yes, wisdom also comes from experience. From trial and error. And so how can we say that someone who has learned or is learning from a deed has done something evil.

All things work for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purposes.

This scripture points to a differentiation that we can address - what is of Caesar's or of this world, or for the world's purposes, and what is of God's, or for God's purposes. Another way to put this, what is of the Law (that which sustains creation) and what is of Grace (that which leads to liberation or salvation). Yes, both are ultimately for God's purposes, but here we see a teaching of two standards of conduct. Jesus came to call the elect or those who have evolved sufficiently (those who love God and are called according to his purposes) to the higher standard, to what we can call the standard of love. Those who are not ready live by this standard, are to live by the Law.

And so when we speak of the Hitlers of this world, we are speaking of something according to the Law. And yes this worldly situation was so large that the elect, those who live by love, were caught up in it as well. Some of the elect were forced into circumstances requiring their direct involvement, the draft for example, or their homes being invaded. The elect who were not forced into direct involvement became involved out of love. Those with wisdom knew how to pray according to the Law, to invoke the Law upon evil, to bring it to a halt. Such say that according to the Law, a lesser evil - the United States at war, defeated a greater evil, the Axis countries. As scripture teaches us though the Law is necessary, those who live by it and not by faith or by Grace can do no good, so all that they do is evil. But still we have greater and we have lesser evil. And sometimes the greater evil needs to be abolished so that this world can be sustained as a fitting place for the evolution of souls.

Remember Jesus teaching that though he brought Grace into the world, the Law still stood until all is accomplished, until all are redeemed? (And as the Jews at the time understood - Jesus was speaking of more than simply the Torah, but all the Laws of God that bring creation into being and sustain it. The Law existing in this world is a reflection of that Law. How it appears in this world is dependent upon the evolutionary state of humanity.)

And so the question is what are we personally living by, the Law or Grace? If we are no longer living according to the Law, but by Grace, we are no longer compelled by our bestial self, but instead always compelled by love. Some of us though still living according to our bestial self will experience Grace from time to time, for those living by Grace do so for all of us.

The situation of healing on the Sabbath is speaking of living by Grace. Not being confined by something outside of us telling us what is right and what is wrong, but being moved internally by the Holy Spirit. Again, not all in this world are ready to live like this. The Law is for them.

Now if we apply this wisdom to the situations under question, a young black being murdered by a gun, or those practicing homosexuality being murdered by words, something else might be seen. Even the Law itself is not stagnant in this world, but ever evolving to match the evolution of humanity. At one time, in harmony with the Law, it would have been logical to assume that a young black man with a hoodie walking at night around a neighborhood not his own was probably up to no good. But this is no longer the case - such assumptions are not in harmony with the Law governing us presently, and they certainly are not in alignment with Grace.

A person living under the Law would have been expected in years past to correctly sense danger in such situations. A person though living under Grace, then and now, would have never felt personally in danger. If, for example, a child had been with them in the past, they probably would have made sure he or she was safe at home, but then on their own have gone out to see if they could help the black youth (helping him would include helping him to not commit a crime). It would have been the same then and now - a person living by Grace would seek first to assist, not seek first to defend themselves.

Let's look at the case of homosexuality. According to the Law there was a time when homosexuality was a danger to humanity. Back in the days of Paul, homosexuality meant the rape of young men - homosexuals working the greatest evil by seeking pleasure by bringing harm of others. Of course such despicable behavior was against the Law of God. But this is no longer the case. Homosexuality today means that more of us are able to enter into permanent loving relationships, sharing our lives intimately with another and becoming valuable assets to society.

Those who think that God's Law is against this do not understand God's Law.

And those who live by Grace would never even consider condemning love in any form. So those speaking against homosexuality are the same as those speaking against young blacks walking through neighborhoods not their own, they are not working in harmony with God's Law as it is appears in today's world, much less functioning according to Grace.

Shalom!

Sheryl


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:05 am 
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Hi Sheryl,

What you say is the way I see scripture as well. It has three states defined. The lowest is when all of the godliness is ignored and man becomes the natural beast. Then there is the law in which most operate. Where men go through life trying to do the right thing but not knowing in many cases what is right. Then at a spiritual level the world is cast aside and love of our fellow man is the guiding principle.

As for love in a homosexual relationship I see your point. Love in any form is a good thing. In both homosexual and heterosexual sex love can be removed and just the carnal is in play. In both cases when we are ruled by the natural beast we have embraced the world and turned from our Father.

Thanks for taking the time to write your post. I am sure that I am not the only one that enjoyed your comments.

Frank


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:56 pm 
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sheryl wrote:

Now one might say that the defensive action of shooting someone with a gun is different that a defensive action of shooting someone with words. But given the teachings of Jesus, I beg to differ. Check out [url=Matthew 5:20-22]Matthew 5[/url]. We murder with our words just the same as we can murder with a gun.

And so I offer that we are all murders, murdering others with our words, feeling justified because of a perceived threat, a threat to ourselves which Jesus, 2000 years ago, taught us is nonexistent.

We sin, we speak poorly of others, even react physically defensively, because we perceive something as being a threat to us, Jesus taught us that this is wrong. No one can actually harm who we really are.
Shalom!

Sheryl


I appreciate your thoughts regarding my question. While I agree that words can damage, I think the physical act of pulling a weapon, like a gun, is pulling forth a weapon of violence with intent for violence. The age when humanity used weapons strictly for hunting is past. Carrying a gun for defense is carrying a gun for violence.

I can see usefulness in words, I find no usefulness in weapons. Carrying a weapon will not protect me or my family from harm any more than wearing a seatbelt in a plane will stop the plane from crashing. Harm can come in many forms. It can be violence by strangers or evilness on the internet. Weapons of violence are equally ineffectual to both harms.

I get the feeling that for you, the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill" means exactly that. I agree completely. And I think we are equally responsible for our actions and words to protect life. That's why I would run into a burning building, and why I would try to save those in the building. Just because they are strangers doesn't mean my life is more valuable.

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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:57 pm 
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Franktalk wrote:
Hi Sheryl,

What you say is the way I see scripture as well. It has three states defined. The lowest is when all of the godliness is ignored and man becomes the natural beast. Then there is the law in which most operate. Where men go through life trying to do the right thing but not knowing in many cases what is right. Then at a spiritual level the world is cast aside and love of our fellow man is the guiding principle.

As for love in a homosexual relationship I see your point. Love in any form is a good thing. In both homosexual and heterosexual sex love can be removed and just the carnal is in play. In both cases when we are ruled by the natural beast we have embraced the world and turned from our Father.

Thanks for taking the time to write your post. I am sure that I am not the only one that enjoyed your comments.

Frank


Shabbat Shalom Frank!

I like the three distinctions that you made. Let's use them in an example.

When we realize that human consciousness is evolving, we likewise realize that God's revelation of himself is likewise evolving, for as we evolve God can reveal more of Godself to us.

Let's look a culture in which men still behave like animals, like the beasts of the field, without being able to control their animal responses. Wouldn't it be loving, and even wise, for a woman to cover all her hair and skin with clothing, so that she would not be the cause of men stumbling, or succumbing to their bestial natures?

We might even be able to see that in a bestial culture, the Law of Love would require women to clothe themselves completely.

But let's look at a culture that has evolved a bit, so that most men are able to control their bestial natures, and there are laws in place to protect women from the men who cannot. The burden is no longer on the woman, she in this evolved culture is given a bit more freedom, such that it would now be unloving to demand that all women clothe themselves in the same way. It would not only be unloving, but also unwise. For in a society that was evolving, becoming able to control their bestial natures, a potential temptation is needed, so that those who are still behaving bestial can either see themselves and overcome, or be revealed by the Law and receive the help that they need.

And so to say that the appearance of God's Law is absolute is a grave misunderstanding. It is more accurate to call it a Law of Love, as Paul did, and as humanity's ability to love expands, the actual physical Law reduces. Or for those of humanity whose ability to love has expanding, the law applicable to them has reduced. Why surely at some point, when all carnal or bestial nature is overcome, clothing itself will be optional - purely as an expression of the role self is playing.

And it is revealed in scripture that in heaven we are like angels, neither male nor female, and so any reflection of the Law that is gender or race specific will eventually pass away. Gosh we have already seen it with slavery. The Torah gives laws governing slavery thereby giving the appearance that God endorses slavery. We know better, just as we are now knowing better that any Biblical condemnation of homosexuality was not an expression of God's position against same sex relationship, but a restraint needed at that time, against an unloving practice.

God is a living God, and what he reveals to himself is living, right here and right now. It is not something that is stagnant, the same yesterday as it is today, for we are not the same. Shoot, we can see this in our individual lives. What we can receive from God now is so much greater than what we were able to receive from God 20 years ago.

Shalom!

Sheryl


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:18 pm 
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bcuzbcuz wrote:

I appreciate your thoughts regarding my question. While I agree that words can damage, I think the physical act of pulling a weapon, like a gun, is pulling forth a weapon of violence with intent for violence. The age when humanity used weapons strictly for hunting is past. Carrying a gun for defense is carrying a gun for violence.

I can see usefulness in words, I find no usefulness in weapons. Carrying a weapon will not protect me or my family from harm any more than wearing a seatbelt in a plane will stop the plane from crashing. Harm can come in many forms. It can be violence by strangers or evilness on the internet. Weapons of violence are equally ineffectual to both harms.

I get the feeling that for you, the commandment, "Thou shalt not kill" means exactly that. I agree completely. And I think we are equally responsible for our actions and words to protect life. That's why I would run into a burning building, and why I would try to save those in the building. Just because they are strangers doesn't mean my life is more valuable.


Hi bcuzbcuz!

Yes, I agree, most of us here would run into a burning building to save those inside. The difference I was pointing to was our perception of the burning building. In my tradition, we consider this whole world a burning building and many righteous souls incarnate here purely to save those who are trapped.

So that existing in this world is running into the burning building. And when we see an actual building on fire, we might not consider that to be the greatest threat to those trapped inside.

You might remember a teaching from Jesus, do not worry about those who can kill your body, but he who can destroy both soul and body. And so my response to you was yes, we should act to preserve physical life, but that there is something more precious than physical life and that is eternal life of the soul.

The example that was given was that only one could be saved. My response was that I would value the souls of the whole group over the physical life of one. If on the other hand, I could have saved them all physically, I would have done so, and then later used the close call on their physical lives to perhaps engage in a conversation about eternal life.

Now that I look at this again, may I offer you a different response. My own ability to help souls here has some value, my own life has value - which I negated in a self righteous way in the first response, and so I see now that it would not be wise to give up my own life unless God guided me to do so, for the benefit of others. And so if I could only save one, along with myself, I would cry out to God which one which one! looking for guidance in who to quickly grab, whose life would bring the most benefit to humanity. I would have to put all self judgment aside and look to God to guide. For a baby can grow up to be a serial killer, just as an old crippled person could be the one to inspire a child to grow up to find a cure for cancer.

Shabbat Shalom!

Sheryl


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:39 pm 
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Sheryl
You said:All things work for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purposes.
While that may be, according to some scripture, it seems counter to the teaching that God is unconditionally bound to "bless according to an action of a person." Regardless of their faith, or love of God. Fortunately, the sun shines and the rain falls on everyone. Otherwise God would be a cursing God, not a loving God...

This scripture points to a differentiation that we can address - what is of Caesar's or of this world, or for the world's purposes, and what is of God's, or for God's purposes. Another way to put this, what is of the Law (that which sustains creation) and what is of Grace (that which leads to liberation or salvation). Yes, both are ultimately for God's purposes, but here we see a teaching of two standards of conduct. Jesus came to call the elect or those who have evolved sufficiently (those who love God and are called according to his purposes) to the higher standard, to what we can call the standard of love. Those who are not ready live by this standard, are to live by the Law.

Sheryl: Respectfully, it seems as if you might not be in line with your suggestion that scriptures were written at a time of limited knowledge and understanding, to serve the purpose of their times. "Law", today is not limited to God or judiciary but much broader to scientific laws; natural laws, from which there is no escape. Whether believer or atheist there is no escaping gravity, etc. "God's purpose" (your words) is served by those who do what is right to benefit humanity and the universe. I think the "elect" are lovers of humanity. Whatever their religious or political leaning.

And so when we speak of the Hitlers of this world, we are speaking of something according to the Law. And yes this worldly situation was so large that the elect, those who live by love, were caught up in it as well. Some of the elect were forced into circumstances requiring their direct involvement, the draft for example, or their homes being invaded. The elect who were not forced into direct involvement became involved out of love. Those with wisdom knew how to pray according to the Law, to invoke the Law upon evil, to bring it to a halt. Such say that according to the Law, a lesser evil - the United States at war, defeated a greater evil, the Axis countries. As scripture teaches us though the Law is necessary, those who live by it and not by faith or by Grace can do no good, so all that they do is evil. But still we have greater and we have lesser evil. And sometimes the greater evil needs to be abolished so that this world can be sustained as a fitting place for the evolution of souls.

As I see it, "the Evolution of souls" is an ongoing process, as much carried forth, generally speaking, by humanitarians than by theologians and theocrats. "The evolutionary state of humanity" (your words) has advanced further in the last 70 years than ever before...

And so the question is what are we personally living by, the Law or Grace? If we are no longer living according to the Law, but by Grace, we are no longer compelled by our bestial self, but instead always compelled by love. Some of us though still living according to our bestial self will experience Grace from time to time, for those living by Grace do so for all of us.

Let's look at the case of homosexuality. According to the Law there was a time when homosexuality was a danger to humanity. Back in the days of Paul, homosexuality meant the rape of young men - homosexuals working the greatest evil by seeking pleasure by bringing harm of others. Of course such despicable behavior was against the Law of God. But this is no longer the case. Homosexuality today means that more of us are able to enter into permanent loving relationships, sharing our lives intimately with another and becoming valuable assets to society. Those who think that God's Law is against this do not understand God's Law.

And those who live by Grace would never even consider condemning love in any form. So those speaking against homosexuality are the same as those speaking against young blacks walking through neighborhoods not their own, they are not working in harmony with God's Law as it is appears in today's world, much less functioning according to Grace.
Very enlightened understanding!

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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:15 pm 
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Roger,

Just how much do you accept the understanding of this universe as described by man? Do you see that understanding as an absolute? What if the laws of this universe were an arbitrary element in the creation of this universe. What if we could have all kinds of universes with all kinds of laws governing the parts of each universe. This concept of different laws for different universes is not new and is pretty much accepted as possible by many scientist. So where does that leave you with your understanding of gravity, or any other measured thing in this universe? In my mind it makes all of the laws or parts of this universe not an absolute. To seek an absolute we must go beyond this creation and seek answers there. I think of this universe as a box, a created box. I seek outside the box. Please don't get me wrong I love to study the relationships of the parts of this universe. I know a lot about what people call science. But I place it low on the shelf of things which I hold to be truth. To me all of the observations and theories of science are limited in scope, limited to this realm and are not absolutes. This understanding of mine has allowed me to cast off this world quite nicely and seek answers elsewhere. In my world I see people who are wrapped up in this world and can't see the larger picture. It is like the old saying it is hard to drain the swamp when you are up to your neck in alligators. But from where I sit the alligators are phantoms that only have power if you give it to them.

http://www.physics.sfsu.edu/~lwilliam/s ... index.html

Many have taken the anthropic principle and declared that we are just one of an infinite number of different universes. They say that we are lucky that we are here so life could develop. What do you say?


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:14 pm 
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Roger Morrison wrote:
Sheryl
You said:All things work for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purposes.
While that may be, according to some scripture, it seems counter to the teaching that God is unconditionally bound to "bless according to an action of a person." Regardless of their faith, or love of God. Fortunately, the sun shines and the rain falls on everyone. Otherwise God would be a cursing God, not a loving God...


Hi Roger!

I think I will differ in what you might have heard before.

God has free will. He is not unconditionally bound to do anything or not do anything. However the Law that God established to sustain and evolve creation is in place and will function according to design, unless 'God interferes'. God's interference with the Law is called Grace. Actually God is Grace, but we could not endure God's full Grace, or a full revelation of himself, so the Law was created to infuse creation with gradations of Grace according to each's ability to receive. The Law thus measures or tests our ability to be blessed, and then gives blessings according to what has been dictated by Law.

We have to understand that the Old Testament was written according to how God was perceived thousands of years ago. The New Testament was a New Revelation of God given to a people's who could receive more of God. Today, there continues to be a New Revelation of God occurring, according to what can be received today by a continually evolving humanity.

With each New Revelation we are not seeing a new God but seeing God more deeply and more clearly.

Quote:
Sheryl: Respectfully, it seems as if you might not be in line with your suggestion that scriptures were written at a time of limited knowledge and understanding, to serve the purpose of their times. "Law", today is not limited to God or judiciary but much broader to scientific laws; natural laws, from which there is no escape. Whether believer or atheist there is no escaping gravity, etc. "God's purpose" (your words) is served by those who do what is right to benefit humanity and the universe. I think the "elect" are lovers of humanity. Whatever their religious or political leaning.


Indeed the elect are lovers of humanity and are not confined to a specific religious or political leaning. Elect merely means a big brother or sister when it comes to souls, one who is more equipped with overcoming the darkness in this world (darkness being rooted in our delusion of separation resulting in lack and unworthiness.)

And yes, by Law I included all physical laws as well. Logos is what runs everything in all realms of creation! I am not sure though what you mean by me not being in line with my suggestion that scriptures are in line with what humanity is able to receive and understand of God. Surely we see a parallel between scientific discovery and what of God man is able to receive and understand. I guess I am not understanding your comment, for I see science in harmony with spiritual revelation. Often spiritual revelation precedes scientific discovery. Often this is not realized because knowledge of spiritual revelation is not held by the masses.

Quote:
As I see it, "the Evolution of souls" is an ongoing process, as much carried forth, generally speaking, by humanitarians than by theologians and theocrats. "The evolutionary state of humanity" (your words) has advanced further in the last 70 years than ever before...


Those evolving the most quickly will indeed not be those who hold blindly to older revelations of God, not allowing the New Revelations to provide a greater understanding of the Old. It does not matter what society calls them, in all categories that you offered there are probably those who hold up barriers to evolution and those who join gleefully in it. And yes, humanity has been evolving more rapidly in the last 70 years. It is called a quickening, brought on the by the Second Coming.


Shalom!

Sheryl


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:32 pm 
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Franktalk wrote:
Roger,

Just how much do you accept the understanding of this universe as described by man? Do you see that understanding as an absolute? What if the laws of this universe were an arbitrary element in the creation of this universe. What if we could have all kinds of universes with all kinds of laws governing the parts of each universe. This concept of different laws for different universes is not new and is pretty much accepted as possible by many scientist. So where does that leave you with your understanding of gravity, or any other measured thing in this universe? In my mind it makes all of the laws or parts of this universe not an absolute. To seek an absolute we must go beyond this creation and seek answers there. I think of this universe as a box, a created box. I seek outside the box. Please don't get me wrong I love to study the relationships of the parts of this universe. I know a lot about what people call science. But I place it low on the shelf of things which I hold to be truth. To me all of the observations and theories of science are limited in scope, limited to this realm and are not absolutes. This understanding of mine has allowed me to cast off this world quite nicely and seek answers elsewhere. In my world I see people who are wrapped up in this world and can't see the larger picture. It is like the old saying it is hard to drain the swamp when you are up to your neck in alligators. But from where I sit the alligators are phantoms that only have power if you give it to them.

http://www.physics.sfsu.edu/~lwilliam/s ... index.html

Many have taken the anthropic principle and declared that we are just one of an infinite number of different universes. They say that we are lucky that we are here so life could develop. What do you say?


Hey Frank!

I fully understand rejecting something from a past belief or an idea held by others that does not mesh with our own understanding.

If I might be honest. As our understanding of God begins to really advance, we begin to see how ALL of man's ideas and discoveries fit. For God is infinite, which means there are an infinite number of ways to look at the same situation.

Let's look at the idea that we are one of an infinite number of different universes and that we are lucky here so that life could develop. You might be surprised to learn but this is not far off from one perspective of creation. Gosh all we have to do is look around at this world, at life and death and this world and we will get a pretty good perspective on creation, on the precariousness, the dangers found in creation.

Let's look at how salmon spawn. It takes a lot of hard work and a lot of 'luck' for a single salmon to swim upstream to lay its eggs. Sometimes one salmon even sacrifices its own life to assist other salmon. The point is not that all salmon make it, but that enough make it so that the species can continue. We see that in this world, with accident and natural disaster taking lives right and left. There seems to be some 'luck' involved in just you or me staying alive.

And it is the same with world systems. Many arise but very few of them make it to the state of evolution that we are currently in, and even fewer make it to full world ascension. There is a lot of 'waste' in creation. or remains that must be recycled. A lot of opportunities given, but only a few reach maturity. All we have to do is look around us and we see the same verity.

Many are called but few are chosen. Many of the potential spiritual births are aborted in the Mother's womb, they just don't make it. Jesus gave some of the reasons in Matthew 13:1-9. Not all seed that is planted comes to maturity. That is the way it is in this world, the way that it is in creation. However, there is a part of each of us that will find salvation, though after many failures or miscarriages.

There are a lot of conditions necessary for fruit to reach maturity. Creation is a dangerous place. It is the wilderness! And so I offer that is not a useful to think God has everything under control and that all will be ok, that "I" will be saved, because I belong to the right church, etc, because I do all the right things, or believe all the right things. Salvation is not an award for right doing or right thinking. When we have matured we will be saved.

Shalom!

Sheryl


Last edited by sheryl on Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:10 pm 
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Sorry for my late reply. FrankTalk, how are you? putting together, and making sense out of these prophecies is not an easy task. However, basically, the times, time and one half spoken of in the 12th chapter of Daniel, the 42 months spoken of in the 13th chapter of Revelation, the 1260 days which the woman representing the church is driven in the wilderness as recorded in the 12th chapter of Revelation are all referring to the same event. In the JST it is written as 1260 years. These prophetic day prophecies are not referring to a time when apostasy began to creep into the church, and that was happening while the NT was being recorded, but to the time when the universal apostasy was complete and there was no more public ministry of the true church. Remember that there were translated beings upon the earth which held priesthood authority, and among these were John, the three Nephites, and perhaps Alma the younger as well as others. So, it is not written that the church was taken from the earth, only that it was "driven in the wilderness," and later that it "came out of obscurity." And since that period ended at 1830, it obviously began at 570 AD. Also, there are some events around that time which no doubt contributed to the completion of that great apostasy, and these events are related to the office of the papacy taking greater political power.

Also, The "DCXLVI" was the inscription on the papal crown which was worn on the old mitres of the bishops of Rome. According to a letter written by Jose Gabriel, a former monk of 27 years who worked in the Vatican, to his new mission president in Costa Rica after he converted to the LDS church, this old papal crown is still worn by the popes in private ceremonies.


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:34 am 
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gdemetz,

If you are referring to the woman in Revelation 12:1 then you and I are very far from agreement. The woman is clearly the Jews. This is defined in Gen 37:9,10

God is not done with the Jews and they still hold a special place in the ages.

As for the 42 months this describes the period where Satan has his powers and another 42 months where the great tribulation takes place. By the way it is my belief that the millennium is inserted just before the end of the 70th week ends. I feel this way because of the prophecy in Daniel 9 which declares:

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The key is "end of sins" so I had to reconcile this with Revelation. So either all Jews would be taken or the 70th week could not close until after the millennium. Since sin still does exist in the millennium. So in my mind just as the church period is inserted between the 69th and 70th week I see the millennium inserted as well just before the close of the 70th week.

I am working on a commentary of the Book of Revelation but don't expect it to be done anytime soon. Right now I am working on a paper which describes the life of Peter as a type for the church. Not the authority as some believe. It also includes a separate analysis of 2 Peter as a foreshadow of the restored church. I will finish this work before returning to Revelation.

I will have to look into the 1260 years. But be aware that one passage can have many applications. Past, present, and future to start with. I have a copy of the JST. I will look up anything else he did in the Book.


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:02 pm 
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Franktalk wrote:
Roger,

Just how much do you accept the understanding of this universe as described by man? Generally I accept what I understand. Vain imaginings of others i hold suspect until i understand the imaginor, then I'll look closer at their theories. Absolutes do not entice me. Nor do games of "what if". Generally, I'm too pragmatic to spend much time & energy with suppositions. I look at things as i see them, then, if warranted I will question and propose workables in that current environment. NOW is largely a product of the PAST and will greatly influence the FUTURE; that is if Now is used with understanding, wisdom and love. Love being the all important, and least understood, element...

Do you see that understanding as an absolute? What if the laws of this universe were an arbitrary element in the creation of this universe. What if we could have all kinds of universes with all kinds of laws governing the parts of each universe. This concept of different laws for different universes is not new and is pretty much accepted as possible by many scientist. So where does that leave you with your understanding of gravity, or any other measured thing in this universe? In my mind it makes all of the laws or parts of this universe not an absolute. To seek an absolute we must go beyond this creation and seek answers there. I think of this universe as a box, a created box. I seek outside the box. That's good! Please don't get me wrong I love to study the relationships of the parts of this universe. I know a lot about what people call science. But I place it low on the shelf of things which I hold to be truth. To me all of the observations and theories of science are limited in scope, limited to this realm and are not absolutes.

I see what you suggest, and from your perspective. However, they are not in my realm of reality. This understanding of mine has allowed me to cast off this world quite nicely and seek answers elsewhere. Why cast off the world? Would it not be better to improve it? Answers from elsewhere??? Where/what is "my world"???? In my world I see people who are wrapped up in this world and can't see the larger picture. It is like the old saying it is hard to drain the swamp when you are up to your neck in alligators. But from where I sit the alligators are phantoms that only have power if you give it to them.

http://www.physics.sfsu.edu/~lwilliam/s ... index.html

Many have taken the anthropic principle and declared that we are just one of an infinite number of different universes. They say that we are lucky that we are here so life could develop. What do you say?


Frank, I read the link, thanks. Interesting, but nothing that impresses me positively.

To your question: Can't say much. Too much babble. (Like how many angels ... on the head of a pin?)
There are REAL issues that deserve our time and energy. (In my opinion:-)
Assuming you are a theist with JESUS leanings, how does dwelling in the realms of speculation feed and care for the needy? Question for you Frank: Does your stand on the homosexual issue conform to the bible's "Abomination" stance? Best regards, Roger


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:38 pm 
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Roger Morrison wrote:
I see what you suggest, and from your perspective. However, they are not in my realm of reality.

Frank, I read the link, thanks. Interesting, but nothing that impresses me positively.

To your question: Can't say much. Too much babble. (Like how many angels ... on the head of a pin?)
There are REAL issues that deserve our time and energy. (In my opinion:-)
Assuming you are a theist with JESUS leanings, how does dwelling in the realms of speculation feed and care for the needy? Question for you Frank: Does your stand on the homosexual issue conform to the bible's "Abomination" stance? Best regards, Roger


It looks to me that you are seeking answers. That is always a good thing. And it seems that you don't trust everything you hear, that is also a good thing. But you suggest that your world is limited by your senses. You want to make a logical world based on what you actually experience. But what if the realm of true experience included things beyond the senses? Then your quest to know the truth about your existence is doomed if you limit yourself. I had this same problem for many years. Then I had some spiritual experiences which changed my life. These came to me because I started to see the world as a subset of some much greater reality. I came to this conclusion because of things I learned studying quantum physics. Not that I am an expert in the field but I do grasp ideas pretty quickly. I came to a conclusion that the laws which govern particles are being directed from another unseen reality. Something like dark mass affecting the shape of galaxies and like. So by casting off this reality and embracing another I allowed the Spirit of God to talk to me. Not in any vision where one sits down and has a chat but I knew the path I was on was right. But that world contains good and it contains evil. Things started to happen that made no sense other than they were directed by some sort of evil intelligence. It took me a while to figure it all out. But I can tell you there is a God and He can indwell in your life and you can see the larger picture. But it does require to cast off the chains of this world.

My stand on homosexuals is one of loving my fellow man. We all sin and we all fall short. Love of our fellow man in any form is love. But love of lust in any form is not a good thing. It is of this world. There is a sharp line that exist.


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:58 pm 
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Sheryl,

So nice to read your comments. Just to let you know on some posts where I deal with people who are grounded in this world I will use the world to try and open new insight for those who seek. I know the world is not the ultimate reality but it can be used as a stepping stone for some who refuse to see anything else. If we always use meat and not milk then the gap is too large for many. Remember that I am a recent traveler on the spiritual path. I still have a large history of the world which formed over 50 years. But that does beg the question. How long ago did you start on the spiritual path?

Believe me I know that many are saved who have never set foot in a church. I hold no notion that any church saves people. For me it is for fellowship and collective charity. In fact I believe that many churches can stop a path to spirituality if the member embraces the doctrines of the church. But I also know that within the worst environments a soul can still break free.

Lately I have studied the fall of the early church. It is so sad to read. But man does what man does. The powers and weight of this world does crush many. Maybe you could give me some info on how your group started and more. Is there a site which contains the info? I am curious. After studying all this history I would love to read some good news for a change.

May God bless you and keep you from the evils of this world.

Frank


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:11 pm 
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Hi FrankTalk! The woman in referred to in Revelation is generally recognized by theologians of many faiths as representative of Israel (meaning the church) or the bride of Christ, which is persecuted by Satan, represented by the dragon, and driven in the wilderness (of obscurity) for 1260 prophetic days, or 1260 years as the JST states. This woman, according to many church writings, gives birth to a man child which represents the political kingdom of Christ. The crown of 12 stars on her head is representative of the 12 apostles who head the church under Christ. She is clothed with the glory of the sun, or celestial glory, and the moon, representing terrestrial glory is under her feet.


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 Post subject: Re: The LDS members and the Kingdom of God
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:32 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
Hi FrankTalk! The woman in referred to in Revelation is generally recognized by theologians of many faiths as representative of Israel (meaning the church) or the bride of Christ, which is persecuted by Satan, represented by the dragon, and driven in the wilderness (of obscurity) for 1260 prophetic days, or 1260 years as the JST states. This woman, according to many church writings, gives birth to a man child which represents the political kingdom of Christ. The crown of 12 stars on her head is representative of the 12 apostles who head the church under Christ. She is clothed with the glory of the sun, or celestial glory, and the moon, representing terrestrial glory is under her feet.


I have a different take on this. Let us take the woman. She is a image representing something. So let us take the parts.

Revelation 12:1-2
And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

The Sun and the Moon are a foundation for the woman. The stars, twelve in all.


Gen 37:9-10
And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me.
And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

The Sun and the Moon are Jacob and Joseph's mother. The twelve stars are the twelve tribes, eleven stars plus Joseph is twelve. This makes the woman Israel. Israel is not the church. I urge you to discard this interpretation of replacement theology. I will include my reasons why:

A Commentary on Romans 10 and 11

One of the ways some people view scripture is to take the promises given to the Jews and give them to the Christian Church. This is called Replacement Theology. This commentary opposes this view of scripture.

This Commentary is my opinion and each of us can follow our own heart and follow our own interpretation. Now I believe that what Paul wrote was inspired by God, every word of it. So when I say Paul wrote I actually mean the Spirit of God wrote through Paul. I do not believe that these words need to be looked at through some ancient word filter. I think the Words are timeless just like God. The book of Romans was written for; Rom 1:7 “To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:” So for our purposes he is writing this for the believing Christian.
Romans 10
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Here Paul is describing his desire to have his fellow Jews come to the knowledge of Christ so they may worship God in the fullness of Christ and the Holy Ghost. The Jews still have a zeal for God but Paul wishes them to obtain the mercy and love of Christ that Paul knows. Notice that Israel refers to Jews and no one else. Notice that the word saved is separate from a zeal for God. So one can believe in God yet not be “saved”. Saved is a formal term that applies to knowledge of Christ and accepting Him by faith. The Jews can still believe in Christ but they know Him by Yahweh. They are righteous in their knowledge of Yahweh but not righteous by their knowledge of Christ. Yet they are still righteous and still faithful to God. In their own knowledge and own belief.


4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Here Paul is saying that the law of righteousness is now ended for all those who believe in Christ. Notice he does not say the law is ended.

5 For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Here we see a difference between faith and the law. Moses taught the law and the Jews were to live by the law. But with the knowledge of Christ then faith leads to being saved. Notice it does not say that the Jews following the law are damned. It does indicate that the Jews who follow the law will be ashamed at some time for missing the message. And of course it states that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. And what are the names of the Lord? Yahweh, Redeemer (Job 19:25), Seed of the Woman (Gen 3:15), Messiah (Dan 9:25), He that holdeth the seven stars in His right hand who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks (Rev 2:1), The Creator (Ecc 12 :1), and of course many others. Faith in God and knowledge of Jesus are two different things. Faith and knowledge of Jesus leads to confession and then being saved. Faith in God alone is righteousness.


14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

People will be called to preach the Gospel. And they will put on the armor of God which includes the feet which are shod with the Gospel of peace (Eph 6:15). This is great but it implies a question. What is to happen to those who do not hear the Gospel? They may have faith but no knowledge, does their faith keep them from being grouped with nonbelievers? I think it does. Knowledge or the lack of knowledge does not save. It is faith that saves. To call upon the Creator is to call Christ. When Paul said that the Greeks worshipped Christ as the unknown God was he lying to them or did he in fact declare the faith of the Greeks valid? I think he was in support of their quest to know God. So did the Greeks worship Christ without knowledge?

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias (Isaiah) saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Here Paul is saying that some will receive the report (knowledge) and some will not. Some will take the knowledge of Christ and believe, then confess and then be saved. But others will not see the knowledge as truth so they will stay with their zeal for the God of Abraham. They will remain in the law of Moses. They will reject the knowledge even after being told by Moses they would suffer jealousy from a foolish nation. It was the lack of faith that made God angry. It was idol worship that made God angry. Yet in the time of Christ it was the religious Jews who rejected the knowledge of Christ. So did God harden their hearts so they would not see the truth of the knowledge of Christ? Was this a judgment on earth due to their fathers who worshipped idols? I can not say but the words of Moses seem like a judgment. (Deu 32:21) But the Jews were punished because they were not ready for the Messiah when He came. This seems to me to indicate that the Jews were not hardened by God but made them self hardened with self righteousness.

Romans 11 (King James Version)
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Here Paul is setting the stage for what follows. He is describing a time in which Israel was worshipping idols and killing its prophets. So faith in the true God fell to the side and the world for that moment held Israel. But God had a remnant of seven thousand which would be the seed for the future. The OT is full of times in which Israel followed God and other times in which they did not. But God always had a plan to save Israel. I believe this is true today and was true when Paul was writing the Book of Romans. The first sentence in this section tells us that God has not cast away Israel. These verses that follow in Romans are the details of that plan to save the Jews (Israel).

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

This does not say that works were ended for Israel. I think what it is saying is that some Jews came to Christ and through grace were saved and no longer lived in works. But those who were not elected were blinded and remain under works. They were blinded to the Gospel so they would not be held accountable. Those that through faith believed in the God of Abraham were and are still part of the olive tree. This tree of faith that has its roots with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The olive tree is the faithful Jews.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Here it continues with the theme that the Jews have been blocked from understanding. In verse 11 it asks the question. “Have they stumbled that they should fall?” And the answer is “God forbid” Then it continues describing the fall of the Jews and how that opens up an avenue for the Gentiles. So the Gospel was given to the Gentiles with all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. But verse 12 ends by saying that the Jews obtained a fulness because of the opportunity given to the Gentiles. A fulness is not being broken off the tree.

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Obviously Paul would prefer to have the Jews come to Christ and not be blinded; in verse 14 I think this is clear. Now in verse 15 it asks a question, it does not say the Jews are cast away from the tree of faith but cast away in the sense that they would not accept the Gospel. This nonbelief in the Gospel is what allowed the “reconciling of the world”. The second part of verse 15 asks what will be the result if they are brought back, the obvious answer that they are saved from spiritual death. But how can this be done? By their blindness. They are brought back to the tree of faith by their faith in God not the Gospel. When this tree is viewed as a tree of faith then the root, first fruits, the lump, and branches are Holy. Some by the Gospel and some by faith in the God of Abraham. Remember that the root was there before Christ came to the earth as man.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

This is a warning by God not to get to full of ourselves. We (Gentiles) are only here because God allowed us to be grafted in. Remember we are not a new tree. The root is still the faithful Fathers. It is the Jewish tree of faith that we are attached to. The fallen branches are those who do not believe in God or they worship idols. But God says that if they turn that around they will be reattached. We are not to boast against the natural branches. But replacement theology is the ultimate boast, it replaces Israel. It takes away the tree, the root, the history and makes the olive tree the Church.

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Now Paul is announcing in clear terms that a mystery is being revealed so pay attention. He also tells us who will not get the message. Those who consider themselves wise and are full of conceits. The message is that the blindness on Israel will stay until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. So in verse 7 and again here in verse 25 the blindness is highlighted. I would suspect that this is important. Now when is the fullness of the Gentiles over? See Luke 21:24, it is over when Gentiles no longer walk around Jerusalem. This obviously means that the blindness continues to this day. Notice that the term Israel is being used for the blinded Jews (in part). So the term Israel is for the elect and the blinded Jews.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

All Israel will be saved is a bold statement. I have to assume it has to do with the prior verses and the blindness cast on them. If they did not know better then they could be saved is the message. Obviously taking away their sins, which is Christ choice clears the way for all of them to be saved. This is not the Church, the reference to Jacob is clear and Israel is Israel. But how can the Deliverer save them if they are blind to the Deliverer? That mystery is revealed.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

So the blindness of the Gospel makes the Jews (they) disagree with “your” Church. But they are to be loved because of the special relationship He has with them. To make sure that there is no misunderstanding Paul says that the promises (gifts) and the “calling” will not be taken away.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

We obtained mercy because the Jews rejected the Gospel. This defines the unbelief as rejection of the Gospel. Scripture tells us that we obtain mercy when we give it to others. It is not too much to ask that we give mercy to blind Jews concerning the Gospel. It seems that the act somehow in God’s mind allows the Jews to obtain mercy. The Church acts as a conduit to the Deliverer so that they can be saved, they can have their sins taken away. This allows the Jews to have their sins taken away even though they don’t have a Temple and are not sacrificing animals. But we read that the Temple will be rebuilt and the sacrifices will resume. I suspect that when the Church is raptured the Temple will be standing. Without the Church the conduit is removed so the Jews will have to follow their historical rites. This view explains the restarting of the sacrifices.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

The blindness to the Gospel causes unbelief in the Gospel. But through the Church asking for mercy for the Jews they obtain mercy and have their sins taken away by Christ the Deliverer. The Bible has a few examples of a third party acting as a bridge of faith to another. A good one is Dan 9.

Verse 33 tells us that we will not know the depth of God’s wisdom concerning this matter. So I just accept it that all Jews will receive mercy. At least the ones still on the olive tree that do not have belief in the Gospel but a belief in God.


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