Shalom Frank!

According to Jewish teachings, the patriarchs of Judaism each represent an aspect of the Name or a divine attribute, they together grounding all attributes of God's Name, YHWH, so that the Messiah could incarnate bearing the Divine Name of the Father in full.

Abraham grounded Hesed, or Mercy.

Isaac grounded Gevurah, or Severity/Judgment.

And so the play between Abraham and Isaac at the place of sacrifice was crucial, bringing the balance of Hesed and Gevurah. Abraham, though fully Hesed, taking on the energy of Gevurah in being willing to offer Isaac, and Isaac, though fully Gevurah, taking on the energy of Hesed in being willing to offer himself fully.

It was a crucial moment in preparing the way for the incarnation of the Messiah.

Much more can be learned of these and all patriarchs through the study of Judaism, especially Jewish Mysticism.

And yes, all religions have a place in this world. All are preparing souls at various levels.

We are not each in the same place, or have the same need in the process of awakening and expanding our consciousness through healing and illumination as we are exposed to greater and greater light. And so each religion or even each group within religions will carry different gradations of light, different 'intensities of truth', each providing something that the souls gathering around them need - even if we get tangled with a religion that causes pain. The pain was a necessary part of our journey.

It takes this kind of faith, trust - knowing all things are working for good, no matter how unpleasant, painful or inauspicious they may seem, in order for us, the entire world, to find the truth that will make us free.

Blessings to you and to your loved ones.

It is a joy to chat with you as well.

Sheryl

I agree Frank. We should stand / step back and view the world's Christian sects/religions. . .

What 'good' are they contributing to humanity? And what 'bad' are they bringing about? Some do more 'good' than others. Most however, simply because they collectively preach the doctrines of original sin, salvation through the blood of Christ, redemption and resurrection, are leading humanity away from the principles of love and cooperation that Christ, and other enlightened teachers have advocated.

You are also somewhat correct with your perception re the personal relationship between humans and "God".

Humans are born with the "authority" to discover, disclose and utilize the secrets of the Universe ("God" in your lexicon) to benefit the Universe and its creatures. It seems obvious, to me at least, that scientists are more qualified than clergy to improve the quality of all life on our planet. . . Another bit of 'obviousness': Clergy influenced the world for 1,000s of years, with a rather slow movement of 'quality'. Science has had influence for maybe 500+/- years. Consider the social and technological advances in the last 150 to 200 years! Like WOW!!

As churches spend more emphasis on the "Spirit" and less on the "Letter" the better will be their effect. . .

A long way to go! But look how far we've come!! Enjoy this life. There's non other :-)

The issue of "authority" to do anything in the name of God, is dark, primitive ludicrousness. IMO. Roger

Hi Sheryl, hope you don't mind my intrusion. . . I find your comments very interesting. Thank you for them!
You said:

"It takes this kind of faith, trust - knowing all things are working for good, no matter how unpleasant, painful or inauspicious they may seem, in order for us, the entire world, to find the truth that will make us free." As Jesus is said to have said.
Whether one believes in Jesus' saving-grace or not, IF they recognize "truth" and live by it, the world advances!

I agree, things are working for good through the application of proper sciences and honest, unprejudiced enlightenment. Coming through applied intellectual effort/energy and conscience to our world's social needs!

I think one of the barriers to this is the mental commitment of a part of "professing-believers" to Armageddon and "the-second-coming." Very unfortunate that they have such a distorted view of reality. Preferring a war to peaceful resolutions of our differences...as Jesus advocated. Sad indeed that such folks feel so indifferent to their neighbor. I guess that's what the "good Samaritan parable" was/is all about??? Oh well. . .
Warm regards, Roger

Sheryl,

It is obvious that there exist a connection between the physical plane and the spiritual. Each side advances by steps and each side is dependent on the other to progress to the next step. We can not go from atheist to a walk with God in one step. It seems to me I have examined my path and have tried to place that path into words. I may be able to describe my path but all paths are different even though they all head in one direction. They all start with our unique spirit and each of us is different. But we also exist as a group, we share many things that we are not even aware of. As one spirit advances it helps all others. The path to righteousness slowly breaks away a wall between all men and spiritual truth. But evil does its best to fix that wall so men are locked here in the flesh. Your comments on Abraham are right on. The types we see in scripture are for many purposes besides a heads up for the future. We all act out our roles. Even the earth and the rain are part of this stage. Only when our soul sees this can we obtain a conscience understanding of what we are doing. Yet even without the conscience understanding we are all advancing in spirit. And when we think the soul is locked away because the flesh is behaving badly it is actually attending an advanced class on character. Yes the curtain has been drawn up and the stage lighting is bright and what everyone should know is that there are no exits left or right. We all play our part until the last player is snatched away.

Frank

When I was reading these posts, I noticed some things that were not consistant with even the non-Mormon encyclopedias and theological writings, but I really appeciated some of the efforts here to tackle the Book of Revelation! Therefore, I feel inspired to sum up my LDS perspective of the 13th chapter of Revelation:

It starts out by identifying the Roman Empire coming up out of the sea, or from the nations, peoples, and tongues, and states that Satan gave it it's power, along with a brief discription of the kingdoms before it. It then goes on to state that this empire would receive a deadly wound, but would be revived, and that it would make war, overcome, and have power over the saints for 42 months. However, concerning this matter, I will refer you to Clark's Commentary (non-Mormon) in which it correctly states that this time period is prophetic, meaning that each day represents one year. Therefore, it is referring to a 1260 year period. In fact, this is the same period which is referred to in the 12th chapter of Revelation, in which the woman, representing the church, is driven into the wilderness (see also the JST of Revelation 12:5). This period is from 570 AD to 1830 AD, when the church finally came out of obscurity and was restored to public ministry again. This chapter goes on to state that another beast, or kingdom came up and excercised all the power of the first beast, or Rome, and that it had two horns like a lamb (Christlike). These two horns represent the Greek and Roman branches of this kingdom. It also states that it speaks as a dragon. The chapter goes on to describe a mark of this beast, or a sign of this kingdom, and I belivethat there was a discrepency from the original writing, and that the mark in the right hand and forehead should have been written as WITH the right hand and forehead (see "Mormon Doctrine, Sign of the Cross references). This chapter later talks about an image, or likeness of the first beast, and particularly the emperor, and compares it to the leader of this new "beast" and states that the number representing his name is 666. One day when I was reading the "New Catholic Encyclopedia," I saw the mitre of the bishop of Rome which had the inscription "DCLXVI."

gdemetz,

I found your post interesting. Why the year 570? The church had been apostate for centuries before that. And why did you convert 42 months to years, what in scripture gave you the idea you are to do that? I take it you are familiar with the Seventy week prophecy. Why would the last week be expanded from seven days to years and then expanded again?

I know there are many messages in scripture but those messages normally have two areas that support that message. Like two witnesses and the like.

Frank

I started to read Clark's commentary on Revelation. Just in the beginning he makes some big errors. He seems to think the Jews are ended for some reason and he thinks the Book of Revelation was written before the fall of Jerusalem. These are big errors which will cause a misread of the rest of the revelation. I will finish the rest of the commentary. When I am done we can if you wish start a thread to discuss his comments. I think he is one of those who believes in replacement theology. That whole idea is wrong.

I'd love to see which picture you're referencing to. On the newer pictures of the mitre, all I see are flowers and on the older miters it is difficult to make out anything that even resembles the text you refer to. You sure you aren't looking at a photoshopped picture???

Frank, both you and Sheryl have talked about the spiritual versus the physical world. What is your stance on the defense of home and family laws that exist in the US? The recent killing of Trayvon Martin in Florida, with the killer being free because of the "Stand Your Ground" legislation fills the news. Do you support the necessity of having a handgun for family protection? Do you own weapons yourself? What about you, Sheryl? Does your family own guns?

Even Christ showed us that we are to protect our property. Do you remember the Temple grounds? How about the Old Testament where good and evil have battles and armies fought. How about Samuel killing a King in defense of Israel? And what about the Laws of Moses? I will tell you that the defense of my life, my family, or property I would use deadly force. But I don't seek it. The issue with this guy is that he was seeking a confrontation as far as I know. We only seek when told to do so by our leaders. This is sanctioned by scripture. You must be able to draw the line between those things which are of God and those which are of man. But even a policeman is not supposed to hate the criminal that he shoots. Do you understand that the world must be in balance between good and evil for us to live in its effects and choose for our self which we will embrace? How can that balance be maintained if one side will not fight?

FRANK, you said:

"We can not go from atheist to a walk with God in one step. It seems to me I have examined my path and have tried to place that path into words. I may be able to describe my path but all paths are different even though they all head in one direction. They all start with our unique spirit and each of us is different. But we also exist as a group, we share many things that we are not even aware of. As one spirit advances it helps all others. The path to righteousness slowly breaks away a wall between all men and spiritual truth. But evil does its best to fix that wall so men are locked here in the flesh. Your comments on Abraham are right on. The types we see in scripture are for many purposes besides a heads up for the future. We all act out our roles. Even the earth and the rain are part of this stage. Only when our soul sees this can we obtain a conscience understanding of what we are doing. Yet even without the conscience understanding we are all advancing in spirit. And when we think the soul is locked away because the flesh is behaving badly it is actually attending an advanced class on character. Yes the curtain has been drawn up and the stage lighting is bright and what everyone should know is that there are no exits left or right. We all play our part until the last player is snatched away."

I found this an interesting paragraph that aroused a few questions and comments:

*What makes you believe that atheists, and other non-believers, don't "walk with "God""?

Might your concept of "God" be misconceived, or false? Does "God" favor the righteous over the unrighteous? NO!
*Men are locked in their flesh until they die. Hopefully enjoying and contributing their energy to the benefit of the group.

*Yes, we are all different. Designed, by genetics and environment to be that way.
As we understand, and truly appreciate our differences (not exploiting them) we will tend to advancing civility and charity as Jesus directed the drama to continue with his new law.

"All the world IS a stage... we have our entrances and our exits..." I sense you seem to see life as a tragedy, a constant battle/contest between good & evil / Satan & God???
Are there not times of shear joy, pleasure and satisfaction, creating treasured memories?

Thanks for your thoughts! Roger

Once you get away from that kind of thinking and realize that we are spirits that happen to be in this body you will make progress, but until then you will be stuck.

Frank, what kind of "thinking" are you referring to? Where do you think I'm "stuck"? Is there nothing in the rest of my post that you find agreeable?

I am aware that we are more than physical. Disposed by nature & nurture to be who & what we are and do. Our body displays our spirit. Sort of "Body language" that emanates our true self under all conditions of life. . . Hopefully, the longer we live, the better we live.
Enjoy what you have. You might never have more. . .
Roger, over:-)

Roger,

One day I was walking down a street and I looked into a window of a store. In there was a vase. It was beautiful. I admired the vase and wished that I owned it. I looked at the vase and gave it great worth. If I saw it shattered I would be sad. I was willing to trade what I had to obtain that vase.

The world Roger is that vase. I was not thinking of the potter but of the pot. The unseen potter was responsible for the pot. The clay could be this or it could be that. It was the potter that made all. When you start to see the unseen power behind the creation then you will see many things you never saw before. Yet they were in front of you the whole time. Cast away what you see and concentrate on the unseen power of God the Creator. When you accept that this world could be completely different and it was God's choice to make it this way then you will be taking your first step.

Imagine if you can billions of pots with lips and a voice. Many talk to each other about how they came from a lump of clay and they say their form is an accident of arraignment. Others say that all lumps came from nothing that exploded one day. I see the world this way. It is silly to consider pots talking to each other this way because we know there is a potter. Now consider yourself. Who made you?

I'm going to assume you are an American, living in the US. You would use deadly force to protect your property. Said like a true American. posting.php?mode=quote&f=3&p=569920# And yet, as the OP of this particular train of thought, you wanted the rest of us to think about whether we would run into a burning building to save another human being.

You stated, "The question is made for us to think about our priorities. The physical running in and pulling people out is not the intent of the question. All of the responses that deal with the physical reality are very limited in what they describe. What is the thinking process and what about the worth of the people. How is that determined? I have stated that the worth of all of them are the same no matter the age or condition. The worth is associated with their spirit and not their flesh."

Do you then see yourself as an emissary of God, dispatching human bodies to God's kingdom. Sort of like that bumper sticker, "Kill 'em all, Let God sort 'em out!"

Didn't the ten commandments say, "Thou shalt not kill.!"? Did Moses leave out the paragraphs that covered the "unless" parts? Like, "It's not OK to kill, 'unless the other sucker is trying to rip you off' ?" Does that mean you have the right to kill the chief executives of Wall Street companies and the banking institutes for stealing properties from the American public in the crash of 2007-8?

You live in a world rife with contradictions.

Is killing to protect one's property not killing? What use do we have for property when we ourselves are dead?

From your point of view I can believe that. God says to help the less fortunate. That would be the people in the burning building. Would not the less fortunate also apply to a family about to be killed by some robber? I am not an observer in this world, I actively participate in the events. What do you do?

You make awkward, disjointed jumps in logic. I asked why/how your christianity gave you licence to kill to protect your property. You responded with "family about to be killed by some robber". That probably makes sense to you, in an American sense of perspective.

In my world (my part of the world...so very politically/socially different than the world you live in) robbers are not automatically assumed to be murderers. Someone breaks into my house? They're welcome to whatever they want to take. I'm not attached to worldly goods. Someone threatens my life? Never happened to me or anyone I know or anyone they know. The subject has never come up. Oh, the US government tried to send me to VietNam when I was studying in the US, does that count? I ran away.

FRANK,
I'm not one for similes. I'm more for reality & pragmatism. Which, it appears to me, you aren't. Am I correct? You ask, "who made you? (me)"
Should I really care? Fact (the important thing) is, I'm here! Yippee!!
To do what I do. As an individual and as a member of one or more collectives, pooling talents, skills and resources to maintain & upgrade humanity, minimizing pain & suffering, to the best of my ability. "Man is that he might have joy!"
I hope you are getting, and creating, your share. . .
The Kingdom of God is less deserving of my interest, than is the Brother-Sister-hood of Humanity!
Best regards, Roger :-)

Thanks Frank! I considered trying to go into greater detail regarding this complicated chapter, but I think I would probably just mess up and make things more confusing than I already did. However, I would just like to bear my personal testimony, with a great fear that it may be scoffed at. Honestly, I have not lived the life that would warrant much benefit from the gift of the Holy Ghost, and consequently I haven't had many notable spiritual experiences. However, when I was doing research on this very chapter in the LSU library for a commentary on the Book of Revelation, I hit a wall at about the middle of the 13th chapter, so I decided, after exhausting the New Catholic Encyclopedia, Clarke's Commentary, The Interpreter's BIble, and some church commentaries, along with many other reference sources, I decided to pray right then and there (silently). What happened next was shocking and hard to explain as I instantly could grasp the meaning of a number of things mentioned in that chapter all at once, and I also knew at that same time that there was an error regarding the "mark of the beast" which I have previously mentioned. Six months later, when I was reading Mormon Doctrine, "Sign of the Cross," I happened to notice a reference given which was the verse in Revelation 13 which mentioned the "mark of the beast." At the instant I saw that, I received the same "witness" that I had previously received at the LSU library, which confirmed that personal revelation that I had already received.

Apparently, the late Apostle Bruce R. McConkie had received a personal revelation about this long before I did.

Paul was hunting down Apostles to kill them when he was called. So there is hope for all of us.

If you have not done so you should view Chuck Missler's DVD commentary on Revelation. It is a futuristic view. I hold to the futuristic view as well. I don't agree with everything he says but he does a good job of describing the basic future view. If you like that then get the one on Daniel.

Frank