I would like to talk about how scripture lays out a future and how some members of many different churches see the future very different. The LDS has some of this as well.

No one likes to see revelation unfold before them in ways that upsets their happy home. But scripture tells us that all of our happy homes will be turned upside down. Many refuse to see this, they instead bury their head in the sand and declare that God will not allow that to happen. But let me remind people of what Jesus told Peter.

Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offense unto me: for thou savorest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

There is an unfolding plan and we all are part of it. Many are called to be martyrs today and many more will be called in the not too distance future. Men will have to choose between their God and their life. The weak of faith will flock to the powers of Satan and be deceived even though scripture has been clear on this issue.

Deu 11:16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;

Luk 21:8 And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

But men are weak.

Rev 13
3And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
11And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Verse 14 has the deceived.

But many say that the church will bring the Kingdom of God to the earth and the whole earth will come to Christ. What scripture says is that a very terrible 3 1/2 years is before us and many will turn to Satan. The Saints will be killed. Then when Christ does come He will rule with a rod of iron. Then after a thousand years Satan is released and many still follow Satan even after a thousand years with Christ on the earth.

As the restrainer leaves the earth the powers of Satan will manifest. My guess is that around 5% of the faithful will remain faithful. I hope I am wrong. My hope is that billions are martyred.

So why is it that this subject is not talked about? Can it be that many wish God and scripture to one thing but it is another? If the believing members can get scripture so wrong is it any wonder that people weak in faith see all kinds of problems in the church. Not that problems don't exist but they don't place the issues in proper context. They place worldly importance on things that just don't matter.

Many churches of which the LDS (some members) is just one hold to a world religion without going through a Tribulation period of 3 1/2 years. Many churches and their members allegorize the Book of Revelation and say that it has already occurred and the Kingdom of God is in our hearts and the second coming is Christ in our hearts. I don't hold to this view at all. Even the RCC holds to this view even though many members do not.

http://oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Apocalypse

Read the section - purpose of the book

They clearly say we are living in the millennium. This makes for an interesting discussion of the assumed powers of the church but that is another topic.

The point is the church is wiping away the teachings of John and replacing it with the teachings of Augustine. In some way all churches drift from the original doctrine. The LDS church is no exception. As a model we have the entire Old Testament that shows us that man will not hold onto any doctrine. In time man will chip away at any truth and will in time replace it with the ideas of man. Only in times of intervention or a great outpouring of the Spirit will man get reset. We are living a form of that type as shown in scripture. I must say that the exodus of some members of all churches is due to the world and its influence on those members. But I must admit that in part the first crack that leads to that worldly analysis may come from the church leadership. What is most sad is that the church if guided by the Spirit would not change doctrine or members if guided by the Spirit would see through this situation. I have stated many times that I expect errors because the church is run by man. This thread is an attempt to define what I mean when I say that.

How many times have men thought about scripture and found fault with it by using the ideas of the world? I would say this is very common. But how is a church supposed to deal with this kind of argument? Is the church to bend to the wishes of the world? I would say no. But the church is made up of men who have the same weakness of those who attack doctrine. So combined the world slowly eats away at truth and truth is replaced with the world. I expect this of all churches. Any living prophet will only do the will of the Father. If the Spirit is silent then the prophet is silent. It is my belief we have many prophets living amongst us. Most are not public figures. All those who receive revelation are prophets. It is also my belief that we are in a time of an outpouring of the Spirit in preparation for the end times. But rather than a central figure of old we have a personal outpouring for those who hold tight to the gospel. Some people are supernaturally strong in spirit. I have met some of these people. It is my belief that they exist in all corners of the world and in many religions. I say this using the Book of Revelation as my model. I could be wrong but I think not. Now some will look upon what I just said and think I have drifted from the LDS church. I have not. God is very complex and what I can imagine is not close to the workings of God. His involvement on the earth is way more than I can imagine. So if I am close to being correct it is but a small part of a very large plan. As we get closer to the end times the world will become polarized. The good will become very strong in the spirit and the weak in spirit will follow Satan and his workers.

I bring up this subject about once a year in order to spread this message. So if by chance the events start to happen leading us to the end times some may reflect back and not take the wrong path.

The signs will be Biblical scale world famines, signs in heaven, and earthquakes. I am not sure people will see them as signs. Scripture tells us that most will not see them as signs.

It has been my experience that most Catholics do not realize that the RCC Institution is Preterist. Accordingly, they do not see or understand what their own belief system really looks like.

Inasmuch as the RCC heirarchy has effectively wiped away the teachings of John in Revelation, they have thus broken the commandment written into the Revelation which warns anyone not to change the prophesies revealed therein.

There are Preterists who are members of every Christian denomination. This is such a big basic difference in doctrinal belief, I do not understand why it is okay in the minds of other Christian denominations to accept these differences, while pointing to the LDS Institution and complaining about what they see as discrepancies and inconsistencies. In this respect, it appears to me that they hang their hats in denominations which are "guilty" of the same type of doctrinal discrepancies and inconsistencies they are accusing the LDS Church of. IOW, they are making issues out of teachings of the LDS Church, when their own belief systems have the same types of issues. The only difference is that it is okay for their belief system to exist in this way with man made issues; but it is not okay for the LDS Church to suffer with man made issues.

Love,

jo

Where to begin and how to respond? WOW! Frank I appreciate the time taken to present your ideas. . . However, IMO you suggest nothing new or original that would lead anyone to embrace the the principle of love/charity which was/is Jesus' message as i understand him. I think you are somewhat confused by what has been dumped on the world by theologians of every age who have their warped theistic interpretations woven in a net to catch those subject to religious speculation of the future and "God's" plan of salvation. Very sad that such non supported nonsense is broadcast as truth.
You represent yourself as a seeker of truth. I do hope you find it. . .
Regards, Roger

Roger,

My intent was not the gospel. My intent was to show how the world views religion and how religion reacts to those views. The love of God towards us and our love of God is the key to any relationship we have with God. That relationship is separate from the church. Anyone who tells you that the path to God is through a church is wrong. A person can tell you of the gospel but that is a person and not a church. A church has no voice. What you do with the gospel is up to you. Many on this site have taken a hard look at the LDS church and found it full of error. They have rejected the church as a result. This thread is my attempt at describing why this happens. If people loved God more than anything in their life then the errors of the world are expected and don't carry any influence over them. But that is another topic as well.

I am attempting to discuss the underlying reasons and structure related to the fall in faith of some in the church. This is a tough subject and one in which many truths must be brought into the light of day. Let me give some details of the methods to fix some of the issues that exist in the church.

Let us say that the church (any church) sees issues and wishes to deal with them. Let us say that the smartest most knowledgeable people are gathered together to discuss these issues and make changes which would fix the various doctrines in the church so that they are now in line with the mindset of the scholars. Many would welcome this event and see it as similar to the major meetings that went on in the early church (RCC). Those meetings in which the church was framed with certain beliefs in order to bring into focus the true faith and a rejection of false doctrine. I can tell you that I reject these events and know for a surety that this leads to more problems and a drifting from real truth. No group of men will ever bring any church closer to God.

Now let us say that a church wishes to know what to do about issues of doctrine. Let us say that this church gathers the most spiritual members together to pray about the issues. If that group fast and prays until they receive guidance then they may help with issues of doctrine. But if they do not receive guidance they should leave everything alone. This is the way we are supposed to seek truth. For those of the world this makes no sense but for those who believe in God this makes perfect sense.

Where many people see a need to inspect the small details in a church or its history I do not. I remain focused on the goal. That goal is to know God. I can only achieve that if I have a personal relationship with Him. I trust God to supply me with everything I need to live my life and make the choices for me on my path is this fallen world. I will of course make mistakes and learn, that is why we are here. Many see my focus as blindness to earthly issues. From the view of the world it would appear so. But let me discuss world views for a moment. If I was a person of the world and I used my man made logic and my earthly knowledge to guide me in my life then I would seek similar things to tell me if a church was true or not. I would get all wrapped up with the details that mattered to me. Those things which I experience would matter and those things which I had not experienced I would suspect as being made up or a lie. I would filter everything I came across through my belief in my logic and my senses which have always told me the truth (my truth). I would weigh each detail in a church against my truth which is my world view. It would not matter to me what others said about how I should view the world because I have already determined for myself how to uncover more truth using what I already know as truth. It is obvious that this type of person will only find what they seek. But another may have a completely different world view. One in which the world does not offer truth. One in which logic does not offer truth. A world view which does not give the creation the ability to give truth because it is a made thing. A world view in which the creation can be examined for relationships among its parts but offers no truth. In that world view truth can only come from outside the creation. It does not matter what few truths are received or how those truths match up with the logic of the world. A world view which opens a doorway. A world view in which the people of the world will not understand what you say because it is just so foreign to them. A world view that will make those of the world hate you.

You are speaking of faith, Frank.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Not all are able to walk in faith, trusting in what is not seen, invisible, not obvious, that for which there is no evidence. True faith comes from our personal relationship with the creator. If we do not have that, then it is impossible to have faith.

I offer you that the Kingdom of Heaven in already here on earth. That is the good news, the gospel. Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven has become accessible to us.

Remember what Jesus said to the Pharisees?

But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

The Kingdom of Heaven was accessible before Jesus, but the leaders of the Jews lost access. But with the coming of the Messiah, the Way was opened up for those who are ripe, or ready, to enter in.

When a soul is ripe the Holy Spirit will guide them to those who can help them enter in. Just as when a soul is ready to ripen, the Holy Spirit will guide them into faith.

Here is another verse about the Kingdom that you might remember:

Hebrews 3-4

18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

1Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. 3 For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said:

“So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest,’”

although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works”; 5 and again in this place: “They shall not enter My rest.”

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, 7 again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts.”

8 For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. 9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. 10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.


May all those who seek the Kingdom, find and enter in.

Sheryl

Sheryl,

The Kingdom of God if defined as the spirit world is of course all around us and has existed before the creation. If the Kingdom of God is defined as Jesus direct rule over the earth then that has not started, it will start in the millennium. If the Kingdom of God is defined as the separate spiritual place in our heart where Jesus and the Holy Ghost dwells while we are in the flesh then this started in the church age. I believe in all of them.

I like your comments about how this reality will appear as a dream when we wake from this state. We are actually in the spirit world but we are fooled into believing that we exist in the creation only. Through the casting off of this world the blanket that covers us is turned into a dream. It starts to have no power over us. We can see through it and can pass by it. Obviously some can go further than others in this regard. If one truly goes far enough God will pull them from this creation. Their existence on the earth would threaten the walk in faith and would supply proof of God. The creation must act on the word of God and worldly blindness will do the rest to prevent a path which will circumvent faith. It is only by faith that we are allowed to enter the kingdom while in the flesh. One way of looking at faith is comparing it to that thing which motivates us. It is faith that drives us to a moral life by placing us on a righteous path. We have faith that good is the path to God and those things which lead us off our path are not important. It is faith that leads to trust which gives us strength to endure the trials of this world even unto death.

Thank you for your words.

Frank

Hi Sheryl!

Indeed, the Kingdom of God is already upon the earth. I believe the earth exists within the Kingdom of God. However, there is a veil which hides the Kingdom from our eyes and from our spiritual memories; thus the need for us to be reborn...or for our spiritual self to awaken.

We are taught that it is the Holy Ghost who makes the transition through the veil, communicating and witnessing and revealing spiritual Truth to us. He is God's source for all Truth upon the earth (i.e., to penetrate the veil, if you will). The Holy Ghost has the power and authority to do this; there is no other. Therefore, man does not have this power; though, through faith, man is able to obtain Truth witnessed and revealed to him by the Holy Ghost.

I see faith as an active and progressing and growing thing. It is not a one-time exercise when we first "believe". The more we allow our faith to continue to seek Truth, the more God instructs the Holy Ghost to reveal to us. Faith, like the Almighty God, like our Resurrected Savior, like the Holy Ghost, are living. Faith is vital, or else it has died within us.

Praise God for His Wisdom, and for the Wisdom which He longs to share with us; which He DOES share with us when we sincerely seek Him!! No church on earth can claim exclusivity to God's ear and blessings, except for the church of the Lamb of God. In God's eyes there are only two churches; the church of the Lamb of God, and the church of Satan. I am beginning to think that the church of the Lamb of God is for our spirit; and the church of Satan is where our physical self may be dwelling. Perhaps a better way to explain this is that they are both spirit places---it is just that in one our spirit has awakened and we are following Christ. As spirits, our walk is in the spirit regardless of whether we have been reborn; however, if we have not awakened, we walk in the church of the Devil. Also, depending on what the source of our actions are (be they for good, or be they for the world/evil/Satan) is what determines which church we are in at any given moment. Mankind journeys in both of them...in one or the other. Faith, which begins the awakening of our spirit self, allows us to learn to travel more frequently in the church of the Lamb of God; exposing the church of Satan to our spirit. Without faith being alive and living in us, we cannot see the difference; thus we walk in blindness and cannot enter into the rest which is promised to the faith-FULL.

When we have entered our rest through our walk in faith, the world has less and less hold on us. In fact, our spirit self remains with God and His Kingdom when we are more fully awake. It is our physical self that then remains in the Creation....still able to sin, and thus able to continue to teach our spirit the things we are to learn while in our mortal state. Once we have been spiritually awakened, it is our spirit that cannot sin anymore. However, since our physical self still sins, we must continue to repent, or "fix" and realign our actions to be in the straight and narrow path which aligns with God's will. Wow, as I type these thoughts out, it helps me to better understand what is actually happening!

His love, His plan for us, His purpose for the Creation and for placing us here....how awesome!! And how much more there is yet to know about His Kingdom. I look forward to immortality and release from the physical bondage of the flesh, when we will no longer see only through a glass darkly, and our spirits are freed from the veil.

Shalom by beloved friend!!

jo

Frank, a worthy intent in deed!
BUT, as you know: "God's" love towards humanity is unconditional!!!!!! So we have been told. . . Good, bad or indifferent, each person, insect etc gets what they need -- air, # 1, food # 2, naturally to sustain our lives. What we do with life is our social/culturally encouraged activity. Some say "God" influences us. No!!!! People influence us. Some, deceitfully, in the name of "God"!!! YIKES!!!
People are not duty bound to love "God"!!! However, they are by instinct, bound to love their children. Although some don't love very well, for various reasons that sciences are now studying and advising correctives. Religious influences have not done so well: "Spare the rod & spoil the child!" has been a rather cruel & cold example of "Love"
A serious study of the OT reveals few examples of Christ-like-love. We see instead an authoritarian, vindictive, merciless, wheeling-&-dealing, vengeful, prejudiced, jealous "God". . . Honouring this "God" in fact taints and defames the whole of Christianity that retains a relationship with "Father Abraham."
Unfortunately, centuries of the misinformed leading the uninformed have kept Christianism from understanding "the truth that will set you free!"
The sooner that folks of all stripes and nations realize that it isn't the love of God that will remedy our problems and set us free... But rather the love of our neighbor. . .
Roger

Roger,

You must realize that God does not force anyone to make a decision one way or another. He may give you help or set conditions so that you may be led to truth but He will not make you believe. And of course God does love us so even when we turn from Him He loves us. But respecting choice He will let us choose hell over heaven. Many in the world don't see a choice. They instead see the creation and use their senses to determine truth. For them they are so wrapped in the creation that they can't even imagine another choice. They see the whole thing as foolishness. That failure to seek is not the responsibility of God. That is ours. Many think that it is God's responsibility to prove He exist. But the creation itself is the proof. The fact that the creation exist is enough. It is man that explains away God by saying that everything came from nothing. It is man that says that life is an accident. The desire to explain away these questions comes from the embrace of the creation. The desire to seek God as the unseen comes from the rejection of the creation as the ultimate reality. Again a choice.

Many people read the Old Testament and come away with the feeling that God is somehow arbitrary and angry. In each age on the earth the spirits of His children come here to experience good and evil. Many people embraced evil in one form or another. They still do today. For each act of sin we must pay a price for that act. This is all laid out in the New Testament. The price can be applied on the earth while we are in the flesh or it can be done after death. It is an act of mercy to subject the flesh to tribulation, it is quick and when done in this dream state is not as real as we imagine. It is our own attachment to the world that gives pain and suffering such a high place and something to avoid at all cost, even our soul. But scripture is clear that suffering in the name of Christ is a blessing. And suffering for another will bring blessings on us as well. The scriptures are written for people of the world to stumble. This issue with God in the Old Testament is just one of many places that people stumble.

The modern man stumbles as well. Man has developed many systems of belief that entices man to view the world as the ultimate reality. The naturalist movement of the late 1700's has manifest into modern geology, astrophysics, and biology. These three areas of thought give man a view of this reality that does not include a Creator. It is a godless ideology that is wrapped by the idea that it is man that sits at the top of the natural food chain. This places man as God. For all of the arguments the bottom line is that each person who embraces a godless ideology has rejected God.

So how do people who say they have believed fall from their beliefs? It is quite simple. They embrace the path to unbelief. At some point in their life there came a moment in which they felt they were at a crossroad. Down one path they would ignore the world and its logic, many people of faith would help them it they cried out for help. On another path the world cried out for them to abandon their silly beliefs and embrace the ideas of men, many men would help them down this path to the world. Many on this site really don't understand me and what I say. I come from such a distant belief system that I appear as illogical and arbitrary. I can understand that view. I refuse to compromise my position. I will not keep one foot in the world and one foot in religious faith. There are some who do this and they are playing a game in which they them self are the great arbitrator of knowledge. Scripture talks about these people.

Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew thee out of my mouth.

So the question remains. Just what is the church to do so members will not leave? My advice would be to pray for guidance and if guidance does not come then do nothing. Because if it comes from man it will always make things worse.

Shabbat Shalom Dear Frank!

Remember that Jesus said: My kingdom is not of this world.

What if each person was ruled directly from within, by Christ in dwelling? Why would we then need an external king?

I offer that God seeks to rule each creature from within themselves. The Law as an external rule is established in a world until all beings of that world are born again, are ruled by Christ from within. The Law thus stands until all is accomplished.

If you recall, the only reason that God gave the children of Israel a king is because they begged for one. The desire of God was to be their personal king, so that no external king was needed.

This world presently is a world of Law, a world needing external governing, thus Jesus' Kingdom is not of this world.

Think about it. If it was God's plan to send an external king, why has one not come?

I believe it is God's plan instead that we evolve so that we might receive Christ personally, no longer needing external governing. (The image of New Jerusalem in Revelation is a vision of each of us, as temples of God, with Christ seated on the throne within.)

We each have a higher Soul, a part of us that exists presently in Christ, in the Kingdom, and when this part of us is received, we being born of Spirit, we each will be governed through this Higher Self or Christ. Thus, no external King will then be needed for beings who have been born of the Spirit, or those who are governed by Christ and the Holy Spirit that indwells.

And so if I might be blunt, those looking for a direct external rule of Christ are not looking for the true kingdom of Christ, a kingdom of those born of the Spirit, but a Kingdom of the Law.

This points to the dream state of this world, a world of external governing. Such a world is only temporary, until the souls of the beings of that world have evolved sufficiently to be born of the Spirit and ruled directly from within by Christ.

May all who receive Christ become children of God, no longer needing an external ruler.

Sheryl

Frank, I would like to think that we might share some common-sense ground. However, the more you expound your theories re creation, God's existence, and man's foolishness I see that we very likely never will. . .
But I do remain curious. You said you were a Christian for 6 years & a Mormon for 1 year. Does that make you a 7 year Christian?
Some of your God statements are not Mormon doctrine. What kind of a M are you?
Good luck in your choices. . .
Regards, Roger

Shalom my dear friend!

As I was reading your words, it came to mind that the church of Satan is the external Church, the Church of the Law, the Church of knowledge of good and evil, given for the evolution of our souls. The Church of God is the Ecclesia or called out ones, those no longer needing an external Church - thus they are called out - for they have been born of Spirit and are governed by the Spirit that lives within.

And I would say that most of us still reside in the Church of Satan, still learning, eating from the tree of good and evil, still experiencing death, loss, sorrow and suffering.

But for most of us, I think that the seed of faith has been planted and I know that once planted this seed will come to full maturity.

And so for us we can say that though we may not yet have been born of Spirit, not yet governed by our Higher Self, we are born of Christ, the Christ seed being planted in us.

Blessings abundant to you and yours my friend!

Sheryl

Sheryl Wrote

Shalom my dear friend!

As I was reading your words, it came to mind that the church of Satan is the external Church, the Church of the Law, the Church of knowledge of good and evil, given for the evolution of our souls. The Church of God is the Ecclesia or called out ones, those no longer needing an external Church - thus they are called out - for they have been born of Spirit and are governed by the Spirit that lives within.

And I would say that most of us still reside in the Church of Satan, still learning, eating from the tree of good and evil, still experiencing death, loss, sorrow and suffering.

But for most of us, I think that the seed of faith has been planted and I know that once planted this seed will come to full maturity.

And so for us we can say that though we may not yet have been born of Spirit, not yet governed by our Higher Self, we are born of Christ, the Christ seed being planted in us.

Blessings abundant to you and yours my friend!

Sheryl

..........................................................................................................................................


Interesting thoughts. Where do they come from? The church of satan an external church?
Eating from the tree of good & evil?? Must be from Genesis?
My understanding is that humans are born spiritually pure, but with possible physical, mental & emotional deficiencies that have absolutely nothing to do with satan nor good nor evil!
YIKES!!! Are there many folks who think as you do??

Kind regards, Roger

We probably have a lot of the same ideas. The only difference is that I was using the word 'Satan' in a more Biblically correct way.

Gosh Jesus called Peter Satan! And he supposedly is the foundation of the Church! If we think that Satan is some evil red dude carrying a pitch fork, then we are in a lot of trouble, don't you think!

Satan is all of creation that works in ignorance of God's Will. And that which works in ignorance of God's Will is not ruled by Christ within, and so needs the Law to tell it what to do and what not to do.

Perhaps this makes more sense now?

Sheryl

You will have to point them out. I find many people who don't know doctrine who say the strangest things.

FRANK, with all due respect, I think you fall into the last category. . . Me too??? :-)
As for pointing out your statements I consider questionable. Please forgive me, i just don't have the time to dig through all of the above again. We are so far apart in our understanding of scripture that it doesn't matter what we think.
IMO, what matters most to me is that people still believe nonsense, such as original-sin, the fall, redemption, resurrection, an after life, and in Mormonism: temple ordinances.
Why that matters to me: I don't like to see folks being deluded and living life according to policies edicts and practices based on fabricated imaginations. . .
Enjoy the day, Roger

Yeah, you sound more reasonable here :-)

My take on some of this biblical stuff: Ancient / primitive / limited understanding. Their words suited them, but not me, or now. . . Of course they still find favor in some crowds. . .
I don't think the, "... God of our fathers, in whose almighty hands..." exists :-0!! Nor does Satan with or without horns, tail, or pitchfork ;-)

There are countless natural laws upon which the universe and its folks live. Some laws we consciously utilize or violate, others???? When we're smart and do the right things, that's living "Righteously" (nothing to do with religion!)

When we mistakenly, in ignorance, or stupidly do the wrong things, violating natural laws, we "sin" (nothing to do with religion!) Although many like to lay that lash upon folks who make mistakes. Not at all what Jesus exemplified... "GO, and don't make that mistake again!" "And you guys with the stones, ??????

Heaven & Hell concept has out lived what ever purpose or value it ever had. The world has always functioned according to cause and effect. The smarter humans become, the better it will work as we fine tune the multitude of sciences that we become aware of and utilize.

The one greatest in need of adaptation is the most ancient and least understood of all:
"Love your neighbor!"

Whether religious type believers understand that Jesus has no need to come again. His message was delivered once. The ball is now, and has ever been, in our hands. Unfortunately, we like playing Monopoly & War Games rather than Peace & Love...
Wadayas think, eh???
Roger

So you think that someone who does not have a belief system is somehow in a better position to know the workings of someone else's belief systems. That is like saying that someone who has never experienced Chinese is in the best position to read Chinese.