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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:36 am 
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I hate to agree with the posters here, but the more gdemetz posts about this topic - the more apparent it becomes that he lives in a state of denial. I can't think of many scientists that would back up his ideas about a world-wide flood (even LDS ones) or his ideas about the age of the Egyptian civilization. I have spent a considerable amount of time myself looking at this (and reading various sources) and concluded there is almost nothing credible to indicate a world-wide flood for example. I still believe it is possible, but am resigned that the most likely explanation for the world-wide flood stories (from many cultures) come from local flood events and not a world-wide event.

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:08 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
Check out the article by Dr. Livingston entitled "Creation Vs. Evolution." It's that Dr. Livingston.


Which articles? And here I use the term loosely. Some of his articles of "proof" are hardly a page long. Furthermore his articles lack footnotes and references. Did this guy actually get a Ph.D.?

He, himself list five articles on Creation vs. Evolution:


Creation vs Evolution
The Five Pillars of Evolution

Was Adam a Caveman?

Prehistoric Man

The "Days" of the Creation Week

Evidence Invalidates Geological Column

The Geological Age of the Earth vs. Miracles

The Great Flood
A Universal Flood: 3000 BC
(Updated version presented at NEAS 11.16.2005)
Audio -- A Universal Flood: 3000 BC

The Date of Noah's Flood

The Flood

The Flood and Subsequent Civilization

Genesis 1 - 11
Correlating the Texts of Ancient Literature with the Old Testament

Creation Stories of the Ancient Near East

Who Were the "Sons of God" in Genesis 6?

Who Was "Nimrod"?

You choose strange bedfellows.

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:11 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
Check out the article by Dr. Livingston entitled "Creation Vs. Evolution." It's that Dr. Livingston.


I checked. The site is a joke that is reliant on biased as well as very old sources. Not to mention the guy assumes the Bible is absolutely correct.

Main website:
http://davelivingston.com/tableofcontents.htm
Article:
http://davelivingston.com/fivepillars.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:26 pm 
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Well, I respect your opinion as it is obvious that you are a well educated person. We just have different viewpoints.


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:29 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
He makes a good point that your flavor of scientists accept the Egyptian account, but reject the Hebrew account.


I don't accept the Hebrew account because it plays so liberally with dates, and absolutely NO archaeological evidence has been found to back up its chronology.

We can stay away from Noah for a bit, and choose someone much more recent in Biblical history, Moses.

Moses came into Biblical stories around 2300-2400 years after Adam, approximately 1550 before Christ, then he lives for 120 years (his brother Aaron lives 123 years). Moses leads 600,000 men (not counting women and children, and livestock and bread) at the age of 80-81, out of Egypt. Exodus 12.

He takes these 600,000 men, plus women and children, out into the Sinai desert for 40 years. The one piece of evidence that seems to be left are the ten commandments written on stone tablets.....but they're not to be viewed except in the ark of the covenant...which nobody is allowed to look at even if they know where the ark is.

Many, many archaeologists have explored and dug and searched for any traces of these more than one million people in the desert. If you know of any artifacts from the 40 year trek in the desert feel free to enlighten me. Apparently these soldiers and women and children left no fire sites, no garbage, no camp sites, nothing. No one on this trek ever lost anything, like a piece of jewelry, which they apparently took with them. No one ever lost a shoe or tossed away a weapon. No one ever built a latrine. Isn't that odd?

I don't believe Moses lived to be 120 years old. I don't believe that 600,000 soldiers trekked around with him for 40 years in the desert without leaving a single piece of evidence of being there.

Meanwhile, the Egyptians were building huge grave sites, fashioning exquisite jewelry, building buildings, planting crops and painting beautiful pictures of each detail of their lives...both before and after the time of Moses. Hundreds of thousands and even millions of artifacts still exist from the Egyptians. Some of these things were carved in stone, some were made of wood but they have even left clothes and foods and grains from the same time of Moses.

So, yes, my favourite flavour is Egyptian.

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:01 am 
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Come on guys, there are many others with Ph.D.'s who agree with me. Jewish history not accurate, and no evidence for an exodus from Egypt?! Now your prejudices are really showing! I would suggest that you check out these sites:

"Has the Exodus Really Been Disproven?"
"Archaeological Evidence for the Exodus"
"The Catholic Knight, Science and the Exodus"

There are many more.


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 12:39 am 
Has More Degrees Than Droopy
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gdemetz wrote:
Come on guys, there are many others with Ph.D.'s who agree with me. Jewish history not accurate, and no evidence for an exodus from Egypt?! Now your prejudices are really showing! I would suggest that you check out these sites:

"Has the Exodus Really Been Disproven?"
"Archaeological Evidence for the Exodus"
"The Catholic Knight, Science and the Exodus"

There are many more.


Links would be helpful.

(I hope one of the sites uses the Red Sea = Sea of Reeds as evidence the Exodus was possible).

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I avoid church religiously.
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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 1:09 am 
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When I googled 'Archaeological Evidence and the Exodus' I got this from Wiki along with references.

Quote:
Secular point of view
No evidence has been found that indicates Egypt ever suffered such a demographic and economic catastrophe or that the Sinai desert ever hosted (or could have hosted) these millions of people and their herds.[14] Some scholars have rationalised these numbers into smaller figures, for example reading the Hebrew as "600 families" rather than 600,000 men, but all such solutions raise more problems than they solve.[15] The view of mainstream modern biblical scholarship is that the improbability of the Exodus story originates because it was written not as history, but to demonstrate God's purpose and deeds with his Chosen People, Israel.[16] Thus it seems probable that the 603,550 people delivered from Egypt (according to Numbers 1:46) is not simply a number, but a gematria (a code in which numbers represent letters or words) for bnei yisra'el kol rosh, "the children of Israel, every individual;"[17] while the number 600,000 symbolises the total destruction of the generation of Israel which left Egypt, none of whom lived to see the Promised Land.[18]
Archaeology
A century of research by archaeologists and Egyptologists has found no evidence which can be directly related to the Exodus captivity and the escape and travels through the wilderness,[16] and most archaeologists have abandoned the archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit".[19] A number of theories have been put forward to account for the origins of the Israelites, and despite differing details they agree on Israel's Canaanite origins.[20] The culture of the earliest Israelite settlements is Canaanite, their cult-objects are those of the Canaanite god El, the pottery remains in the local Canaanite tradition, and the alphabet used is early Canaanite, and almost the sole marker distinguishing the "Israelite" villages from Canaanite sites is an absence of pig bones, although whether even this is an ethnic marker or is due to other factors remains a matter of dispute.[21]
Anachronisms
Several details point to a 1st millennium date for the Book of Exodus: Ezion-Geber, (one of the Stations of the Exodus), for example, dates to a period between the 8th and 6th centuries BC with possible further occupation into the 4th century BC,[22] and those place-names on the Exodus route which have been identified - Goshen, Pithom, Succoth, Ramesses and Kadesh Barnea - point to the geography of the 1st millennium rather than the 2nd.[23] Similarly, Pharaoh's fear that the Israelites might ally themselves with foreign invaders seems unlikely in the context of the late 2nd millennium, when Canaan was part of an Egyptian empire and Egypt faced no enemies in that direction, but does make sense in a 1st millennium context, when Egypt was considerably weaker and faced invasion first from the Persians and later from Seleucid Syria.[24]
Chronology
The chronology of the Exodus story likewise underlines its essentially religious rather than historical nature. The number seven, for example, was sacred to God in Judaism, and so the Israelites arrive at Sinai, where they will meet God, at the beginning of the seventh week after their departure from Egypt,[25] while the erection of the Tabernacle, God's dwelling-place among his people, occurs in the year 2666 after God creates the world, two-thirds of the way through a four thousand year era which culminates in or around the re-dedication of the Second Temple in 164 BCE.[26][27]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus

gdemetz seems to be guilty of leading the witness...

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 2:30 am 
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The title "Secular Point of View" pretty much says it all to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 4:45 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
The title "Secular Point of View" pretty much says it all to me.


What about the other three headings...?

Quote:
A century of research by archaeologists and Egyptologists has found no evidence which can be directly related to the Exodus captivity and the escape and travels through the wilderness,[16] and most archaeologists have abandoned the archaeological investigation of Moses and the Exodus as "a fruitless pursuit".

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:22 am 
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Secular flavored scientists.


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:25 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Secular flavored scientists.


And you have, once again, failed to provide any support for the babbling falling out of your nose and into your posts.

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:29 am 
God

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Look, I didn't join this blog to beat dead horses! You are obviously favoring your flavor of scientist, and I am favoring mine, so there is no sense in wasting each others time any more about this. If you have a legitimate "Mormon Discussion" issue, I will be glad to discuss that.


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:30 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Look, I didn't join this blog to beat dead horses! You are obviously favoring your flavor of scientist, and I am favoring mine, so there is no sense in wasting each others time any more about this. If you have a legitimate "Mormon Discussion" issue, I will be glad to discuss that.


We don't know who your scientists are because you never post any links or actual real references.

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:31 am 
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That's not true, I have given references here.


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:35 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
That's not true, I have given references here.


Go on then, list them...

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:40 am 
God

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I'm not listing them again. You can look them up if you wish.


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:46 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
I'm not listing them again. You can look them up if you wish.


:lol:

And so we see...the cupboard was bare...

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:48 am 
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All you have to do is look them up if you wish!


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:50 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
All you have to do is look them up if you wish!


All you have to do is list them IF you can...

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2012 5:53 am 
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I told you already that I have listed them here and I am not listing them again!!!


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