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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:42 am 
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I'm glad you mentioned the "ice age." The article I quoted made the point that an ice age could not account for those fossil deposits either. The Bible does not mention Jupiter either, but that doesn't mean Jupiter does not exist! Your logic is very faulty for an educated man! Do you suppose that the Bible would mention everything that happened or would exist, and if it didn't mention it then it would not be real?!?


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 3:47 am 
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They teach that in Hungary?!?


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:00 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Your logic is very faulty for an educated man!
Sorry, I was educated in this world. It is my fault only.


gdemetz wrote:
Do you suppose that the Bible would mention everything that happened or would exist, and if it didn't mention it then it would not be real?!?
Leviticus 11:6
playing zoology expert
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And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you.
Leviticus 14
playing medical expert
wrote:
4. Then shall the priest command to take for him that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop:
5. And the priest shall command that one of the birds be killed in an earthen vessel over running water:
6. As for the living bird, he shall take it, and the cedar wood, and the scarlet, and the hyssop, and shall dip them and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the running water:
7. And he shall sprinkle upon him that is to be cleansed from the leprosy seven times, and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the living bird loose into the open field.

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:05 am 
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That's OK, God loves you! It's not too late to learn about Him.


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:14 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
They teach that in Hungary?!?

No, not really.
You know, I learned literature. Writers, poets, aesthetes and that stuff.
Then - as the leaves were wafted along by the breeze - I learned on my own.

Quote:
Lem, Stanislaw (1921– ), Polish writer and philosopher, physician by education, author of several popular science‐fiction novels and short stories. He lived in West Berlin in 1980–3 and in Austria in 1983–8. His early novels, such as The Astronauts (1951) and The Magellan Cloud (1953–5), are utopian fairy tales, depicting interplanetary communist paradise. Lem's best‐known works, Eden (1959) and Solaris (1961), also adapted for film by Andrei Tarkovsky, are more like contemporary existential novels, reflecting on the essence of human civilization, possible contacts with other worlds, and the problems and dilemmas of mutual understanding. These ‘serious’ novels are deeply psychological and display the writer's extreme erudition and keen insight into human nature.

By contrast, quite a number of his novels and stories, for instance, Robot Fairy Tales (1964) or Cyberiade (1965), are full of humour and the grotesque.

Grotesque fits to theology.

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- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:17 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
That's OK, God loves you! It's not too late to learn about Him.

Which of them?

Resheph
Baal
Anath
Astarte
Ashtoreth
Hadad
El
Addu
Nergal
Shalem
Nebo
Dagon
Ninib
Sharrab
Melek
Yau
Ahijah
Amon-Re
Isis
Osiris
Ptah
Sebek
Anubis
Molech
?

Bile
Gwydion
Ler
Manawyddan
Arianrod
Nuada Argetlam
Morrigu
Tadg
Govannon
Goibniu
Gundfled
Odin
Sokk-mimi
Llaw Gyffes
Memctona
Lieu
Dagda
Ogma
Kerridwen
Mider
Pwyll
Rigantona
Ogyrvan
Marzin
Dea Dia
Mars
Ceres
Jupiter
Vaticanus
Cunina
Edulia
Potina
Adeona
Statilinus
Iuno Lucina
Diana of Rhesus
Saturn
Robigus
Furrina
Pluto
Vediovis
Ops
Consus
Meditrina
Cronos
Vesta
Enki
Tilmun
Engurra
Zer-panitu
Belus
Merodach
Dimmer
U-ki
Mu-ul-lil
Dauke
Ubargisi
Gasan-abzu
Ubilulu
Elum
Gasan-lil
U-TinHlir ki
U-dimmer-an-kia
Marduk
Enurestu
Nin-HMa
U-sab-sib
Kin
U-Mersi
Persophone
Tammuz
Istar
Venus
Lagas
Bau
U-urugal
Hulu-hursang
Sirtumu
Anu
EAllusion
Beltis
Nirig
Nusku
Ncbo
Ni-zu
Samas
Sahi
Ma-banba-aima
Aa
En-Mersi
Allatu
Amurm
Sin
Assur
Abil-Addu
Aku
Apsu
Beltu
Dagan
Dumu-zi-abzu
Elali
Kuski-banda
Isum
Kaawanu
Mami
Nin-azu
Nin-mah
Lugal-Amarada
Zaraqu
Qarradu
Ura-gala
Suqamunu
Zagaga
Ueras
?

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- To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:54 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
I think you guys are not reading my posts very well. I was told to name one piece of evidence again when I already mentioned whale bones found inland way above sea level, and gave a reference.


I am failing to see how whale fossils here are evidence of a global flood. They have found whale fossils that are millions of years old in these areas causing them to rethink that some parts were at sea level.

Quote:
In addition to this, I could give much more evidence, but I fear that I would just be wasting my time. For, as FranTalk so well stated it; scholars come in all flavors, and I may add that historians, archeologists, and scientists come in all flavors also. However, a very obvious and overwhelming bias is shown here!


Franktalk has already said he will believe what he wants and does not care about any physical evidence, so I think you are incorrect in saying those who want evidence are the biased ones.

Quote:
You seem so sure that some obscure pharaoh may have existed at the exact time when the great flood occurred, with dubious evidence which many historians have questioned


LOL who really is biased. You can learn more about it if you wish, but don't stop there. You can learn about many civilizations that existed just fine before and after any supposed global flood. How does 8 people repopulate the world so fast. It is impossible.

Quote:
but, on the other hand, despite all the amount of much more recent historical evidence of the life and ministry of Jesus Christ, you state that He may never have existed?!? Now, who does not want to be confused by the facts?!?


May never have existed is different then saying he did not exists. I do recognize there is some evidence. That does not mean he said what is recorded on the New Testament. In fact it would be very unlikely considering none of it was written down anywhere near his time.

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:02 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
Yea, I know the word geology! Do you know the word theology?! Themis, you are only quoting a very small part of that article! The main point of that article was that the so called "geological" excuses, such as the one you mentioned, were not satisfactory explanations for all the marine fossils which have been discovered so far inland and at heights where rivers, etc., could not bring them!


That was drifting. These fossils have been dated to millions of years ago. I suggest you start learning from the scientists themselves as well. It's not that they have figured everything out, but I have yet to see you show any evdience. Again perhaps you can explain how these whale fossils are evidence of a global flood. Keep in mind that fossils found at high ground does not mean the high ground was always that high. The rocky mountains used to be a shallow sea and are a gold mine in fossils. Also Carbon 14 dating is not accurate for fossils since they would not contain enough organic material and are to old. Other dating methods are used like radiometric.

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:07 am 
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Quote:
Urban Dictionary: crash and burn
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... and%20burn
Phrase meaning to have a spectacular failure.

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Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


Last edited by Drifting on Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:12 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
I'm glad you mentioned the "ice age." The article I quoted made the point that an ice age could not account for those fossil deposits either. The Bible does not mention Jupiter either, but that doesn't mean Jupiter does not exist! Your logic is very faulty for an educated man! Do you suppose that the Bible would mention everything that happened or would exist, and if it didn't mention it then it would not be real?!?


The ice age does not fit with a young earth.

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:40 pm 
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gdemetz wrote:
I think you guys are not reading my posts very well. I was told to name one piece of evidence again when I already mentioned whale bones found inland way above sea level, and gave a reference. In addition to this, I could give much more evidence, but I fear that I would just be wasting my time. For, as FranTalk so well stated it; scholars come in all flavors, and I may add that historians, archeologists, and scientists come in all flavors also. However, a very obvious and overwhelming bias is shown here! You seem so sure that some obscure pharaoh may have existed at the exact time when the great flood occurred, with dubious evidence which many historians have questioned, but, on the other hand, despite all the amount of much more recent historical evidence of the life and ministry of Jesus Christ, you state that He may never have existed?!? Now, who does not want to be confused by the facts?!?


I read and have read all your posts and spent a number of hours following up your references given both from Wikipedia and from Ken Ham's "Answers in Genesis" site.

I read them, however, with very different eyes than you do. First of all, I know that Wikipedia can be edited and changed by almost anyone who wishes to take the time to do so. It is often fun to read and can be informative but please, take its portrayal of events with a grain of salt. I know of one site where the chief contributor gleefully adds all kinds of nonsense about himself. To him it is like a year-long, running, April Fool's joke. I have a very limited circle of friends so I feel safe in assuming that other sites are possibly prone to the same kind of truth-bending.

Secondly, Ken Ham's site willfully bends the facts to fit an already conceptualized picture of historical events. I mentioned that http://www.answersingenesis.org/ drops over 300 years from their calculations of Biblical Old Testament events in order for their time scale to match a supposedly accurate list of Egyptian pharaohs. 300 years is not insignificant.

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:46 pm 
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I will try to address several things at once from this post, but I fear that this is a waste of time since you guys favor one flavor of scientist and I favor another. As far as the question regarding the ice age(s), I will just refer you to Kevin R. Henke, Ph.D.. Concerning the impossibility of the earth having its present population from only 8 people. That reminds me of the foolish king who agreed to pay his adviser with one grain of rice, or whatever it was, doubled for each square of the chessboard. However, the foolish king realized well before he got to the last square that he would not have enough grains in all his kingdom to pay that! If you would assume the normal doubling of populations for each generation as an estimate, and do some quick mathematics, then you can see have fast populations can really grow! Also, as I stated before, sea life has been discovered in many places inland which are very far from the sea, and some at surprisingly high altitudes. Evidences of this fact can also be found in part four of Dr. Henke's five part series on "The Age of the Earth."


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:32 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
I will try to address several things at once from this post, but I fear that this is a waste of time since you guys favor one flavor of scientist and I favor another. As far as the question regarding the ice age(s), I will just refer you to Kevin R. Henke, Ph.D.. Concerning the impossibility of the earth having its present population from only 8 people. That reminds me of the foolish king who agreed to pay his adviser with one grain of rice, or whatever it was, doubled for each square of the chessboard. However, the foolish king realized well before he got to the last square that he would not have enough grains in all his kingdom to pay that! If you would assume the normal doubling of populations for each generation as an estimate, and do some quick mathematics, then you can see have fast populations can really grow! Also, as I stated before, sea life has been discovered in many places inland which are very far from the sea, and some at surprisingly high altitudes. Evidences of this fact can also be found in part four of Dr. Henke's five part series on "The Age of the Earth."


Have you actually read anything from Kevin R. Henke, Ph.D.?

http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au/me ... _henke.htm
http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au/mt ... ite_kh.htm

I suggest you obtain a base level geology text and read the parts about ocean deposits. As far as finding sea life far inland, my first ever fossil find was in Utah, in the moutainous, almost desert like, sandy regions, east of Salt Lake City, a trilobite, roughly the size of a silver dollar and in very good condition. Trilobites lived on the ocean floor roughly 270 million years ago. The most fantastic trilobites I have ever seen were in Barcelona. They were also very, very stone dead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trilobite
http://www.trilobites.info/triloimposters.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:21 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
I will try to address several things at once from this post, but I fear that this is a waste of time since you guys favor one flavor of scientist and I favor another. As far as the question regarding the ice age(s), I will just refer you to Kevin R. Henke, Ph.D.. Concerning the impossibility of the earth having its present population from only 8 people. That reminds me of the foolish king who agreed to pay his adviser with one grain of rice, or whatever it was, doubled for each square of the chessboard. However, the foolish king realized well before he got to the last square that he would not have enough grains in all his kingdom to pay that! If you would assume the normal doubling of populations for each generation as an estimate, and do some quick mathematics, then you can see have fast populations can really grow! Also, as I stated before, sea life has been discovered in many places inland which are very far from the sea, and some at surprisingly high altitudes. Evidences of this fact can also be found in part four of Dr. Henke's five part series on "The Age of the Earth."


You really need to find better sources. Your flavor of scientist is not really science. I would suggest at this point that you when you can, start talking to LDS scientists in some of the hard sciences like physics, biology, geology, etc about the subject. Try to find out why they do not believe in a global flood. I hope you might be less biased with them then with us. If you can find one who knows about population sciences that would be great as well. 8 people cannot populate that fast, but the the whole problem here has always been that we see people living all over the world and they keep living all over the world. Now how did they all survive this global flood?

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:23 am 
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Themis wrote:
gdemetz wrote:
I will try to address several things at once from this post, but I fear that this is a waste of time since you guys favor one flavor of scientist and I favor another. As far as the question regarding the ice age(s), I will just refer you to Kevin R. Henke, Ph.D.. Concerning the impossibility of the earth having its present population from only 8 people. That reminds me of the foolish king who agreed to pay his adviser with one grain of rice, or whatever it was, doubled for each square of the chessboard. However, the foolish king realized well before he got to the last square that he would not have enough grains in all his kingdom to pay that! If you would assume the normal doubling of populations for each generation as an estimate, and do some quick mathematics, then you can see have fast populations can really grow! Also, as I stated before, sea life has been discovered in many places inland which are very far from the sea, and some at surprisingly high altitudes. Evidences of this fact can also be found in part four of Dr. Henke's five part series on "The Age of the Earth."


You really need to find better sources. Your flavor of scientist is not really science. I would suggest at this point that you when you can, start talking to LDS scientists in some of the hard sciences like physics, biology, geology, etc about the subject. Try to find out why they do not believe in a global flood. I hope you might be less biased with them then with us. If you can find one who knows about population sciences that would be great as well. 8 people cannot populate that fast, but the the whole problem here has always been that we see people living all over the world and they keep living all over the world. Now how did they all survive this global flood?


Were they floaters?

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 8:27 am 
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Drifting wrote:

Were they floaters?


They must have been, just like all the other millions of species that couldn't make it on the ark. It must be through them that all the viruses and such survived as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:12 pm 
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Yes, I have read some Henke writings. I also read a book once that I found interesting which was written by a Mormon scientist (forgot his name), entitled, "Science and Mormonism." He also put forth opinions which differ from what you guys have stated.


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:49 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
I also read a book once that I found interesting which was written by a Mormon scientist (forgot his name), entitled, "Science and Mormonism." He also put forth opinions which differ from what you guys have stated.



I don't think you did...

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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:58 am 
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I know I did!


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:11 am 
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gdemetz wrote:
I know I did!


In which case you will identify the book and the author.

A book called 'Science and Mormonism' doesn't appear to exist!

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Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: Glass & Steel in the BofM, why a problem?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:14 am 
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I will try to find out. I know that the title was, "Science and Mormonism."


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