Mormon Apologetics & Misogyny: The Case of William Schryver

[_harmony]

So what did you call her, Will?

A despicable hypocrite and a shame to the Saints.

And so she is.

Not true.

Try again. That would never have been edited for rule breaking.

God knows, Will. Repent. We're all just trying to help you!

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

Hello,

Yet another derogatory female term used to insult another board member:

And, like the shabby trailer park slut you are, I'm sure you'll keep on scoring them, one after another until all the faces look the same.

I wonder if anyone notices this kind of thing?

V/R
Dr. Cam

[_Droopy]

On the other hand, Will is here saying that the terms he used were "subtle variants" of the term "bitch," but not that term itself.

So while Jersey Girl has me admitting that I would not agree with such, it appears that those are not precisely the terms that were actually used.

What were the terms actually used, if not the more stark and overt terms claimed by Will's detractors here?

[_MsJack]

There were five pages of material here when I began composing this post; now there are eight. So I'm playing quite a bit of catch-up. But allow me to clear a few things up:

[1] I'm not "anonymous." Every single post that I make at MormonDiscussions has links in my signature to my two blogs, ClobberBlog and Προστάτις. Each of these blogs has an "About" page that gives biographical information about me and includes my photograph. A savvy Googler would also be able to locate interviews I have given with The Washington Post and Religion & Ethics Newsweekly, the two articles that I published in the last year (one of them is available online), my Mormon Expression podcasts, old articles about me in the campus newspaper from my undergraduate days at BYU, dumb crap that I said under the "Junia" and "Illyria" handles back in my ZLMB days, etc. I'm one of the least anonymous members of this forum and one of the oldest fixtures in the online Mormon apologetics scene--been commenting on Mormon-themed discussion boards since I was 16.

Of course, I also listed my real name and educational affiliations at the end of my OP, so the "anonymous" accusation just boggles my mind. (Pro-tip Droopy: the first rule of intellectualism is to, y'know, read the material you're preparing to interact with)

[2] I'm sorry to thrash a good conspiracy theory, but . . . well . . . there's no conspiracy here. I alone took the initiative in creating this thread and putting it together, and I did it for precisely the reasons that I stated in the OP---which I see that, thus far, neither William nor anyone who has spoken in his defense has cared to address. As far as behind-the-scenes action on the post goes, I approached a grand total of two MDB community members to request assistance in gathering material, only one of whom even responded to my request. That person helped me find the material that I used in maybe 1.5 sections of the thread, and s/he did point me to a number of incidents that even I had been unaware of, but that was it. I also sent a brief note to Kevin Graham asking for a citation that I knew he would be familiar with, but I was unable to locate it. This citation accounted for a single sentence in the post consisting of 27 words. I also sent a message to harmony asking her to confirm the "c***" incident since I did not personally witness it.

That is it. Neither Doctor Scratch nor Kishkumen nor Gadianton nor Dr. Shades had any contact with me while the post was being prepared. A few other people did know that the post was in the works, but never approached me about creating it and made no contributions to its development. In case you've never noticed, I don't participate in those "Who is Schryver's Benefactor???"-type threads, I don't join in the speculation about "Mopologetic" dynamics and/or drama, and I don't intend for any of that to change. My concern with this issue is exactly what I stated in my OP: if William is going to be making formal academic contributions to Mormon studies, how are women supposed to feel comfortable interacting with his work given his history of misogyny? This thread has gone to five---now eight---pages and no one has even attempted to answer that question.

[3] I do not identify as a "leftist" or an "anti-Mormon," and I challenge anyone wishing to apply those terms to me to define their terms, then cite specific examples of things I have said or done which place me in those categories. That I've critiqued the misogynist behavior of a single Mormon apologist hardly qualifies.

[4] I don't mind the appellation of "feminist," but given my status as a pro-lifer and staunch Republican, most feminists would mind applying the label to me. In any case, I hardly think it takes a feminist perspective to realize that making unwelcome comments about a woman's breasts on a public message board is highly inappropriate. Most of us learned this in our eighth-grade class on sexual harassment.

[5] There is no "Kevin Graham & MsJack." Kevin Graham is just one of my many, many online acquaintances and, as previously covered, only provided me with material accounting for a grand total of 27 words of my OP. His critiques are the sole intellectual property of Kevin Graham; my critiques are my own. Please treat us as individuals.

[6] This has nothing to do with the quality or potential of William Schryver's KEP and Book of Abraham apologetics. I am not the least bit involved in KEP or Book of Abraham scholarship and have zero interest in changing that in the near future. William's apologetics could have the power to prove the distinctive truth claims of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for all time and eternity and it's very unlikely that a single thing about how I live my life would change. Furthermore, I believe apologetics is a useful branch of theology and I welcome its development in the Mormon community.

This thread has to do with ensuring that Mormon Studies remains a respectable field that welcomes participation from female academics. Thus far William's response to the serious matter I have raised is less than encouraging.

With those generalities aside, let's get to some specific responses.

[_Droopy]

Will has never called any woman on this message board a whore.

The breast reduction surgery appears to have been successful.

lol

1 Nephi 14:11

What does breast reduction surgery have to do with being a prostitute?

[_Will Schryver]

Hello,

Yet another derogatory female term used to insult another board member:

And, like the shabby trailer park slut you are, I'm sure you'll keep on scoring them, one after another until all the faces look the same.

I wonder if anyone notices this kind of thing?

V/R
Dr. Cam

"Another board member?"

LOL!

Yes, this was written for the inimitable Doctor Scratch, in reference to his insatiable attention whoring.

[_MsJack]

Tator/Pokatator ~ I'm glad that you liked the thread. I didn't agree with the polemics and harsh name-calling that you employed in your "Vulgar Scatologist" thread, and you did err and attribute a few quotes to William that he never said. There were also several quotes which I thought were mostly innocuous when viewed in their context or quotes that were partially misquoted. Nevertheless, you were the first person to put some serious effort into a thread documenting William's poor behavior, and as someone who had only lurked on this forum off-and-on since its inception, your thread was a learning experience for me. Thank you for that.

William ~ Responding to your posts in different places, you said:

For the record, I have only posted here under the handles "William Schryver" and "Will Schryver".

Are you sure about that? If so, whoever registered and posted that single post as "WilliamSchryver" did the best impersonation of you that I've ever seen.

The time and effort you have obviously expended in assembling this next stage in the GSTP anti-Schryver propaganda campaign is quite impressive

There isn't one shred of "propaganda" in my posts, and I'm disappointed that this is the extent of your level of engagement with my thread. I made significant efforts to make sure that your words could be viewed in their original context in an effort to be fair to you.

I wish you as much success in achieving your objectives as those who have gone before you.

I'm pretty sure my objectives are the same as yours. You want the "poetry" that you've posted here at MDB to receive the widest exposure possible. So do I. If anything you should be thanking me.

This is a shameless and baseless LIE.

Your claim is noted. Here are the facts:

(1) Your post was moderated by harmony as soon as she saw it and you were put on suspension warning. This means that, whatever you said, it was likely more offensive than all of the other material I've compiled in this thread, including your multiple incidents of calling female participants and female Mormon leaders "bitch."
(2) harmony has testified that you called her a "c***."
(3) MrStakhanovite has testified that you called harmony a "c***," and his post in the thread at the time seems to reflect that you said something incredibly harsh
(4) You deny it.
(5) You've been proven to have a poor memory when it comes to your misbehavior towards women.

I'll let those who read this thread decide for themselves.

Commenting on the same incident, Kevin Graham said:

There is simply no reason for MsJack to lie about this.

It's impossible for me to "lie" about this. I did not personally witness it and am only reporting the testimony of others. They could be lying about this, but I can't be.

And you, my dear, are a base propagandist

"My dear?" Have you ever listened to yourself? William, grown men don't call grown women who aren't their wives, nieces or daughters "my dear." I'm pretty sure no one has called me "my dear" since I quit playing on that NWN persistent world RP server.

Wait . . . you don't moonlight as a Lawful Evil Monk-Sorcerer Elf named "Tinto" by any chance, do you?

However, don't expect it to have the result you most desire: the neutralization of my present and future contributions to LDS apologetics.

Wrong. The result I desire is the neutralization of your brazen misogyny. If you can manage that, you and I will be five by five.

However, now having so closely associated yourself with the brazen and frantic efforts of people like Kevin Graham and "Kishkumen," you will have at least removed, from the minds of those you aspire to influence, all doubt about your allegiances and motivations. That serves my purposes quite well ...

[SNIP]

That said, I must admit I was somewhat perplexed by the fact that it was MsJack who volunteered to take up the torch (and pitchfork) and thereby taint forevermore her treasured (though illusory, as DCP discovered not long ago) reputation for “objectivity.”

Oh really?

Let's try a little experiment then, William: send the link to this thread to your "lovely and eminently capable" friend Shirley Ricks.

Ask her if it means she'll be wanting me to return the George Foreman Grill that she and Stephen gave to me at my wedding. Let me know how that goes.

Oh, and tell her that if she's been missing Buffy since the show ended, the Season Eight comic book series was actually quite good.

----

Doctor CamNC4Me ~ Your apology to Jersey Girl was classy. Thank you for that.

Droopy ~ Let me here level a shameless attack on the baseless attacks of MsJack

You're already off-track, Droopy. My critique was entirely base-ful---it had its "basis" in the misogynist material that I cited in my OP. Please consult the large number of citations that comprise my OP and try again. Feel free to parse any one of those citations and explain to us how they weren't really misogynist.

Wade ~ Nothing encourages respectful treatment of others like a lynch mob full of hypocrits.

Feel free to substantively engage the questions I posed in my OP at your leisure, Wade.

Simon Belmont ~ Yes, we all go too far and say things that we later regret from time to time.

However, upon later being confronted with those things, most of us are able to admit that we let the heat of the moment get the best of us and apologize. Most of us do not boldly insist that we did nothing wrong, time and time again.

Had William ever indicated that his words were poorly chosen and apologized to the women he mistreated, this thread wouldn't exist. Instead he has repeatedly insisted that there isn't anything wrong with treating women this way (except for his promise of a pending apology for calling Emma Smith a "champion bitch").

If you want to document the not-misogynist things he has said, you go right ahead.

[_Jersey Girl]

Let's take harmony out of the equation. Do you agree or disagree with Will's references to female posters as whores and bitches?

Agree/Disagree

I couldn't agree with them, no. On the other hand, the idea that this represents misogyny is overwrought baiting and character assassination that, if Will has opened himself up to such, has been carried far beyond any reasonable criticism for other reasons.

I've been called worse than that which Will has been accused of here on a number of occasions, and some of those now doing the witch hunting against Will have been among those who have done so, not to mention among those who have flung the most reckless and venomous insults and innuendos at the General Authorities of the Church on numerous occasions.

My intelligence, character, and my past problems with alcohol have been used against me incessantly here by the same anti-Mormons and exmos now baying for Will's blood over "bitches" ard "whore."

Very well, but I could plumb the archives of this place for streams of verbiage aimed at apologists and notable members of the Church far worse than this going back as far as the archives will let me by those critical of the Church but who are on friendly territory here.

Scratch's long and ugly program of character assassination targeted at Daniel Peterson utterly swamps any lapses of judgment Will may have had in dealing with the noxious imps of the Trailerpark.



The hypocrisy here is in overdrive.

When you were attacked in the ways mentioned above, I was perhaps the only one on this board who defended you regardless of my level of disagreement with your religious beliefs. I did so, because it saw it as the right thing to do.

Somewhere in the above comments, I believe you are attempting to take a stand for what is right. I don't know why you feel compelled to obscure that with references to other situations on this board instead of dealing with the situation at hand.

[Guest]

The breast reduction surgery appears to have been successful.

lol

1 Nephi 14:11

What does breast reduction surgery have to do with being a prostitute?

[/quote]

1 Nephi 14:11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

What was the purpose of that Book of Mormon reference?

[_Jersey Girl]

On the other hand, Will is here saying that the terms he used were "subtle variants" of the term "bitch," but not that term itself.

So while Jersey Girl has me admitting that I would not agree with such, it appears that those are not precisely the terms that were actually used.

What were the terms actually used, if not the more stark and overt terms claimed by Will's detractors here?

Read the posts quoted and linked to by Jack in her sectioned OP, Loran.

Read them for yourself.