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 Post subject: The Church's position on abortion...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 4:41 am 
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Abortion is an ugly thing, a debasing thing, a thing which inevitably brings remorse and sorrow and regret.

While we denounce it, we make allowance in such circumstances as when pregnancy is the result of incest or rape, when the life or health of the mother is judged by competent medical authority to be in serious jeopardy, or when the fetus is known by competent medical authority to have serious defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth. (Gordon B Hinkley)


What bothers me about this is the last part which seems to fly in the face of the Church teaching that the specific purpose for coming to earth is to gain a body.
Shouldn't the baby with serious defects be allowed to be born and gain a body according to LDS doctrine?

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 Post subject: Re: The Church's position on abortion...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 6:20 am 
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I'm not sure why that is a particular issue. The body is there and the child would not survive birthing, but there IS a body.


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 Post subject: Re: The Church's position on abortion...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:27 am 
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Drifting wrote:
Quote:
Abortion is an ugly thing, a debasing thing, a thing which inevitably brings remorse and sorrow and regret.

While we denounce it, we make allowance in such circumstances as when pregnancy is the result of incest or rape, when the life or health of the mother is judged by competent medical authority to be in serious jeopardy, or when the fetus is known by competent medical authority to have serious defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth. (Gordon B Hinkley)


What bothers me about this is the last part which seems to fly in the face of the Church teaching that the specific purpose for coming to earth is to gain a body.
Shouldn't the baby with serious defects be allowed to be born and gain a body according to LDS doctrine?


If the abortion doesn't allow the spirit to get a body wouldn't it just get another body from another pregnancy. As such maybe the church shouldn't be against abortion at all since each spirit is supposed to get a body anyways.

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 Post subject: Re: The Church's position on abortion...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:11 am 
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Going back in time, 40 years or so, before the LDS church took a radical swing to the right, a woman in our ward contracted rubella while she was carrying twins. The doctors advised against the births since there was a very high percentage risk that the babies would be deformed. The church administrators gave their blessing to the abortion. My wife, who had herself had an abortion, counselled and comforted the woman with insights into how to move past such a difficult decision.

20 years later my wife and took a shaken baby into our home. The child was born normal and healthy but had sustained such brain damage that the child was now sightless, quadriplegic, epileptic, r******* in growth and brain development to the extent of never being able to understand language or even to be able to eat solid food. Following the death of my wife I continued to care for this child for an additional 12 years on my own. If your interested in numbers, that 35,000 diaper changes, 4500 nights of getting up around 2 a.m. to reposition the child and coax back into slumber, 150 days and nights in hospital, 10 surgeries and countless liftings, holdings and steps maneuvered with a bulky wheelchair.

Anyone who gains knowledge that their unborn child will be born handicapped should weigh the outcomes very seriously. But I totally disagree with "Abortion is an ugly thing, a debasing thing, a thing which inevitably brings remorse and sorrow and regret." If there are already older children in the family, be aware that caring for an exceptionally needy child will mean that the older kids will get considerably less attention and time.

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 Post subject: Re: The Church's position on abortion...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 11:57 am 
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bcuzbcuz wrote:
Going back in time, 40 years or so, before the LDS church took a radical swing to the right, a woman in our ward contracted rubella while she was carrying twins. The doctors advised against the births since there was a very high percentage risk that the babies would be deformed. The church administrators gave their blessing to the abortion. My wife, who had herself had an abortion, counselled and comforted the woman with insights into how to move past such a difficult decision.

20 years later my wife and took a shaken baby into our home. The child was born normal and healthy but had sustained such brain damage that the child was now sightless, quadriplegic, epileptic, r******* in growth and brain development to the extent of never being able to understand language or even to be able to eat solid food. Following the death of my wife I continued to care for this child for an additional 12 years on my own. If your interested in numbers, that 35,000 diaper changes, 4500 nights of getting up around 2 a.m. to reposition the child and coax back into slumber, 150 days and nights in hospital, 10 surgeries and countless liftings, holdings and steps maneuvered with a bulky wheelchair.

Anyone who gains knowledge that their unborn child will be born handicapped should weigh the outcomes very seriously. But I totally disagree with "Abortion is an ugly thing, a debasing thing, a thing which inevitably brings remorse and sorrow and regret." If there are already older children in the family, be aware that caring for an exceptionally needy child will mean that the older kids will get considerably less attention and time.


You sir, have not only my unreserved admiration, but also a seat in heaven at the right hand of Christ. And it will be very plushly padded.

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 Post subject: Re: The Church's position on abortion...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:03 pm 
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Abortion should be between a mother and her doctors. I'm saddened when a perfectly normal children is aborted out of convienence since there are so many people that wish to adopt children. But again, it is none of the Church's business. It is a decision that should be left to the mother and professional medical advice.


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 Post subject: Re: The Church's position on abortion...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:11 pm 
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Drifting wrote:
You sir, have not only my unreserved admiration, but also a seat in heaven at the right hand of Christ. And it will be very plushly padded.


Thank you for your kind words, although I would trade it all, were it mine to decide, for my foster child to have a restart at life. A shaken baby is a baby robbed of its life.

The countries that have the lowest percentages of shaken babies are the countries with the best pre- and post-natal care. The number of shaken babies rises in a recession. Alcohol but also uncontrolled rage are principle factors. I would rather that a woman have an abortion than a child born into a situation where it could be shaken.

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 Post subject: Re: The Church's position on abortion...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:03 pm 
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Drifting wrote:
What bothers me about this is the last part which seems to fly in the face of the Church teaching that the specific purpose for coming to earth is to gain a body.
Shouldn't the baby with serious defects be allowed to be born and gain a body according to LDS doctrine?

Must a child be delivered to have satisfied the notion of gaining a physical body? Must it even be fully formed and functional to be called a body? People are born less than complete all the time; surely those people have satisfied the body-acquisition requirement. Why wouldn't all aborted fetuses (whether intentionally or naturally) also meet the requirement? Perhaps that's why the LDS church's abortion position is more liberal than other religions. All these aborted fetuses should be guaranteed exaltation, just like other deceased small children.


Also, Gordon's statement of inevitable remorse and regret is just plain wrong. Most women who have undergone an abortion think they made the correct choice. But I suppose that's what comes from living in a cocoon for half your life, surrounded by fawning sycophants who revere you and consider you essentially a demi-god.

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 Post subject: Re: The Church's position on abortion...
PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:47 pm 
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I think it is in Freakanomics that they show that the drop in the crime rate is tied to legalized abortions. Women weren’t forced to have children that they didn't want and therefore didn't neglect them etc. They contrasted this with Romania where under the rule of Nicolae Ceaușescu abortion was outlawed and women were forced to have babies they didn't want, didn't take care of them or raise them properly and the crime rate went up. They laid it out better than I just did. It just shows the unintended consequences of some of our laws

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 Post subject: Re: The Church's position on abortion...
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:32 am 
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Abortion should be free and mandatory for any woman under 15 years of age or when the pregnancy is the result of incest or rape. Contraceptive inserts should be mandatory for all girls who reach puberty up to the age 15 and contraceptives such as pills or spirals available freely for all girls over 15 (especially if they come from religious homes). Poverty and pregnancy are a deadly mix and society should use its collective wisdom to prevent both for all young.

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 Post subject: Re: The Church's position on abortion...
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 3:58 pm 
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Drifting wrote:
What bothers me about this is the last part which seems to fly in the face of the Church teaching that the specific purpose for coming to earth is to gain a body.
Shouldn't the baby with serious defects be allowed to be born and gain a body according to LDS doctrine?

no, because "to get a body" is actually not the "specific purpose"...to get life experience and progress is...yet more of your creative doctrine interpretations.

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 Post subject: Re: The Church's position on abortion...
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 4:12 am 
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subgenius wrote:
no, because "to get a body" is actually not the "specific purpose"...to get life experience and progress is...yet more of your creative doctrine interpretations.


I have posted earlier about my foster child who was shaken violently at the age of three months. The damage incurred was so extensive that the child lost sight (eyes worked but the brain could no longer sort nor remember any images). Brain swelling through bleeding and bruising, caused epileptic seizures and spasms of pain throughout the child's tiny body from the age of three months to roughly around the age of three years. To give an example, muscle spasms occurred with 15 minute intervals so that a pattern emerged. Spasm, a reaction similar to an electric shock, body arching with muscular tension and pain, crying until the spasm subsided, relaxation into a fitful slumber for a few minutes, then a new spasm. Every 15 minutes, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, for three years.

Add to this, because of the shaking, the child lost all voluntary control of any and all body muscles except in the head and mouth, completely quadriplegic. The child could suckle but not eat nor swallow properly and at the age of two had a feeding tube inserted into her stomach that remains to this day (22 years later).

Although the child has good hearing the brain does not seem to store information, nor can it be retrieved, with the exception of recognition of some music (children's songs repeated many, many, many thousands of times (yes, I know every word and note of the WHOLE album). The child has never spoken any word, cannot repeat sounds at will, and there is no recognition to common stimuli such as hearing own name. The child remains frozen in time to the moment the damage occurred at three months old.

Now to my question. If the purpose of life is: "to get life experience and progress" what possible purpose exists in this child's life?

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 Post subject: Re: The Church's position on abortion...
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2012 5:07 am 
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Actually, as far as I understand Mormon Doctrine, to obtain a body is the only point of life. As long as that is accomplished, the plan of God is fulfilled. Anything beyond that is bonus.


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 Post subject: Re: The Church's position on abortion...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 5:06 am 
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Tobin wrote:
Actually, as far as I understand Mormon Doctrine, to obtain a body is the only point of life. As long as that is accomplished, the plan of God is fulfilled. Anything beyond that is bonus.


So the purpose of life is to get a body? That's it?

Cheque, please!

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 Post subject: Re: The Church's position on abortion...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:26 am 
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subgenius wrote:
Drifting wrote:
What bothers me about this is the last part which seems to fly in the face of the Church teaching that the specific purpose for coming to earth is to gain a body.
Shouldn't the baby with serious defects be allowed to be born and gain a body according to LDS doctrine?

no, because "to get a body" is actually not the "specific purpose"...to get life experience and progress is...yet more of your creative doctrine interpretations.


So why would the Church advocate aborting foetus's when there is a chance of them living and getting life experience?

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Thomas S Monson - Prophet, Seer, Revelator


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 Post subject: Re: The Church's position on abortion...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:44 am 
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bcuzbcuz wrote:
Now to my question. If the purpose of life is: "to get life experience and progress" what possible purpose exists in this child's life?

1. You assume that the child receives no experiences, has no cognitive existence, and has no ability to "live".
2. You assume that the child's purpose is not connected to yours.

If we assume #1, then you must surely concede #2 because otherwise your fostering the child makes no sense, is unreasonable, and illogical...and arguably unnatural.

If we disregard #1 then we still must concede #2 (based on the facts you have presented) and therefore must recognize that it is difficult to know another, almost as difficult as it is to love another...as your story illustrates.

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 Post subject: Re: The Church's position on abortion...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:48 am 
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Drifting wrote:
So why would the Church advocate aborting foetus's when there is a chance of them living and getting life experience?

I am not sure the "chance" has been illustrated as guaranteed.
the balance of the whole against the part is not one that everyone is an expert in attaining, nor am i likely to recognize such a balance anyway....but as to your question...perhaps it is that getting a body does not guarantee one getting an experience/progress...or perhaps it is a physical manifestation of an inappropriate "getting"...or perhaps there is an experience/progress achieved anyway...
bottom line...ask the church.

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 Post subject: Re: The Church's position on abortion...
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 11:53 am 
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subgenius wrote:
Drifting wrote:
So why would the Church advocate aborting foetus's when there is a chance of them living and getting life experience?

I am not sure the "chance" has been illustrated as guaranteed.
the balance of the whole against the part is not one that everyone is an expert in attaining, nor am i likely to recognize such a balance anyway....but as to your question...perhaps it is that getting a body does not guarantee one getting an experience/progress...or perhaps it is a physical manifestation of an inappropriate "getting"...or perhaps there is an experience/progress achieved anyway...
bottom line...ask the church.


Why would the Church support the termination of a perfectly healthy foetus?

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 Post subject: Re: The Church's position on abortion...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:44 am 
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Drifting wrote:
Why would the Church support the termination of a perfectly healthy foetus?

does it?
"Elective abortion for personal or social convenience is contrary to the will and the commandments of God." - LDS Church
keyword "elective"
further...
"Church leaders have said that some exceptional circumstances may justify an abortion, such as when pregnancy is the result of incest or rape, when the life or health of the mother is judged by competent medical authority to be in serious jeopardy, or when the fetus is known by competent medical authority to have severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth. But even these circumstances do not automatically justify an abortion. Those who face such circumstances should consider abortion only after consulting with their local Church leaders and receiving a confirmation through earnest prayer."

i don't see anywhere that the Church specifically supports the termination of a "perfectly healthy fetus"
do you have a reference that mentions a PERFECTLY HEALTHY foetus? (or even one that anglicizes the word fetus?)

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 Post subject: Re: The Church's position on abortion...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:56 am 
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subgenius wrote:
Drifting wrote:
Why would the Church support the termination of a perfectly healthy foetus?

does it?
"Elective abortion for personal or social convenience is contrary to the will and the commandments of God." - LDS Church
keyword "elective"
further...
"Church leaders have said that some exceptional circumstances may justify an abortion, such as when pregnancy is the result of incest or rape, when the life or health of the mother is judged by competent medical authority to be in serious jeopardy, or when the fetus is known by competent medical authority to have severe defects that will not allow the baby to survive beyond birth. But even these circumstances do not automatically justify an abortion. Those who face such circumstances should consider abortion only after consulting with their local Church leaders and receiving a confirmation through earnest prayer."

i don't see anywhere that the Church specifically supports the termination of a "perfectly healthy fetus"
do you have a reference that mentions a PERFECTLY HEALTHY foetus? (or even one that anglicizes the word fetus?)


The way I read this the statement states that an abortion may be justified in cases of incest or rape. It those cases the health of the fetus is not taken into account. So a perfectly healthy fetus of a rape victim could be aborted

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 Post subject: Re: The Church's position on abortion...
PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:41 pm 
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subgenius wrote:
Drifting wrote:
Why would the Church support the termination of a perfectly healthy foetus?

does it?

"Church leaders have said that some exceptional circumstances may justify an abortion, such as when pregnancy is the result of incest or rape,

i don't see anywhere that the Church specifically supports the termination of a "perfectly healthy fetus"
do you have a reference that mentions a PERFECTLY HEALTHY foetus? (or even one that anglicizes the word fetus?)


I've given you a clue...unless you think that the foetus produced from rape or incest is always non perfectly healthy...do you?

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