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 Post subject: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:05 pm 
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What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church … a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them.

--Martin Luther, cited by his secretary, in a letter in Max Lenz, ed., Briefwechsel Landgraf Philips des Grossmuthigen von Hessen mit Bucer, vol. 1. Source: Sissela Bok, Lying: Moral Choice In Public and Private Life‎, New York: Pantheon Books, 1978, p. 47. German text of the quote.

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 Post subject: Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies
PostPosted: Sat Mar 09, 2019 3:07 pm 
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I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict Scripture.

--Martin Luther, letter to Chancellor Gregory Brück (An Den Kanzler Brück), 1524-01-13, Dr. Martin Luther's Briefe, Sendschreiben und Bedenken: volständig aus den verschiedenen Ausgaben seiner Werke und Briefe, aus andern Büchern und noch unbenutzten Handschriten gesammelt. From the Wilhelm Martin Leberecht De Wette Collection of Luther's Letters (Berlin: Georg reimer, 1826) Volume 2, p. 459 (Letter DLXXII; Latin text).

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 Post subject: Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:11 am 
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Maksutov wrote:
What harm would it do, if a man told a good strong lie for the sake of the good and for the Christian church … a lie out of necessity, a useful lie, a helpful lie, such lies would not be against God, he would accept them.

--Martin Luther, cited by his secretary, in a letter in Max Lenz, ed., Briefwechsel Landgraf Philips des Grossmuthigen von Hessen mit Bucer, vol. 1. Source: Sissela Bok, Lying: Moral Choice In Public and Private Life‎, New York: Pantheon Books, 1978, p. 47. German text of the quote.

Maksukov, I think whether you hear moral corruption or moral wisdom in this quote depends upon what sort of lies a person assumes are under consideration.

1943 France. "do you know any Jews being hidden in your neighborhood?" " why no, I have heard of no such here."

Rather different than, "this car (a true lemon) is trustworthy and a great buy."


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 Post subject: Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 10:20 am 
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Maksutov wrote:
I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict Scripture.

--Martin Luther, letter to Chancellor Gregory Brück (An Den Kanzler Brück), 1524-01-13, Dr. Martin Luther's Briefe, Sendschreiben und Bedenken: volständig aus den verschiedenen Ausgaben seiner Werke und Briefe, aus andern Büchern und noch unbenutzten Handschriten gesammelt. From the Wilhelm Martin Leberecht De Wette Collection of Luther's Letters (Berlin: Georg reimer, 1826) Volume 2, p. 459 (Letter DLXXII; Latin text).

It might be noted that this comment is quite different than advising or commanding polygamy. It might also be observed that Luther declining to condemn polygamy does not mean he thinks that the government could not rule against it.

Luther tended to view people using their own judgement on decisions as a good thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 11:21 am 
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huckelberry wrote:
Maksutov wrote:
I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict Scripture.

--Martin Luther, letter to Chancellor Gregory Brück (An Den Kanzler Brück), 1524-01-13, Dr. Martin Luther's Briefe, Sendschreiben und Bedenken: volständig aus den verschiedenen Ausgaben seiner Werke und Briefe, aus andern Büchern und noch unbenutzten Handschriten gesammelt. From the Wilhelm Martin Leberecht De Wette Collection of Luther's Letters (Berlin: Georg reimer, 1826) Volume 2, p. 459 (Letter DLXXII; Latin text).

It might be noted that this comment is quite different than advising or commanding polygamy. It might also be observed that Luther declining to condemn polygamy does not mean he thinks that the government could not rule against it.

Luther tended to view people using their own judgement on decisions as a good thing.

So they could ignore the Ten Commandments? :razz: Not exactly sola scriptura is it?

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 Post subject: Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies
PostPosted: Tue Mar 12, 2019 12:24 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
huckelberry wrote:
Luther tended to view people using their own judgement on decisions as a good thing.

So they could ignore the Ten Commandments? :razz: Not exactly sola scriptura is it?

Luther certainly made his mistakes and serious negatives. As best I can tell, taking sola scriptura as requiring not thinking was not one of them .


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 Post subject: Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 4:14 pm 
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huckelberry wrote:
1943 France. "do you know any Jews being hidden in your neighborhood?" " why no, I have heard of no such here."

Rather different than, "this car (a true lemon) is trustworthy and a great buy."

So where would this one fall on that scale?
Quote:
An angel says you have to "marry" me or he will skewer me with his drawn sword.

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 Post subject: Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2019 11:00 pm 
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moksha wrote:
huckelberry wrote:
1943 France. "do you know any Jews being hidden in your neighborhood?" " why no, I have heard of no such here."

Rather different than, "this car (a true lemon) is trustworthy and a great buy."

So where would this one fall on that scale?

Quote:
An angel says you have to "marry" me or he will skewer me with his drawn sword.

Example of God being an author of a lie

https://i.imgur.com/zcxh40m.jpg

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 Post subject: Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies
PostPosted: Wed Mar 20, 2019 9:17 am 
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Mittens wrote:
Example of God being an author of a lie

https://i.imgur.com/zcxh40m.jpg

Example of God considering doing evil, then repenting. Exodus 32:14.

"And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."

It took Moses to talk God out of being an ahole. Since Moses, nobody bothers, apparently. :lol:

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"I'm threatened and terrified by the tendency of people to abandon themselves to the mystical when for centuries those tendencies did nothing but tighten the rack and hurl the stones." --Gemli


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 Post subject: Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:47 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
I cannot forbid a person to marry several wives, for it does not contradict Scripture.

--Martin Luther, letter to Chancellor Gregory Brück (An Den Kanzler Brück), 1524-01-13, Dr. Martin Luther's Briefe, Sendschreiben und Bedenken: volständig aus den verschiedenen Ausgaben seiner Werke und Briefe, aus andern Büchern und noch unbenutzten Handschriten gesammelt. From the Wilhelm Martin Leberecht De Wette Collection of Luther's Letters (Berlin: Georg reimer, 1826) Volume 2, p. 459 (Letter DLXXII; Latin text).

However, the Bible clearly states that a Bishop is to be the husband of but one wife. So anyone thinking about being a church leader could not be a polygamist. Sort of ruins the whole Joseph Smith standard...


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 Post subject: Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 6:52 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
Mittens wrote:
Example of God being an author of a lie

https://i.imgur.com/zcxh40m.jpg

Example of God considering doing evil, then repenting. Exodus 32:14.

"And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."

It took Moses to talk God out of being an ahole. Since Moses, nobody bothers, apparently. :lol:
I believe the Bible is expressing how GOD "feels" in human terms for our benefit. And GOD teaches man through such interactions. Remember Abraham dealing with GOD concerning Sodom and Gomorrah? The reality is we see that there were not 10 righteous individuals in any of those cities or GOD would have sparred them. Clearly, Abraham could not conceive that there could not be at least 10.


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 Post subject: Re: Martin Luther on God's Acceptance of Lies
PostPosted: Fri Mar 22, 2019 8:18 pm 
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LittleNipper wrote:
I believe the Bible is expressing how GOD "feels" in human terms for our benefit. And GOD teaches man through such interactions. Remember Abraham dealing with GOD concerning Sodom and Gomorrah? The reality is we see that there were not 10 righteous individuals in any of those cities or GOD would have sparred them. Clearly, Abraham could not conceive that there could not be at least 10.


Abraham the holy. The dude who would have killed his son for Yahweh and gave his daughters up to be raped for the same. Abraham was a disgusting man who found favor with an equally disgusting deity. I can tell a lot about people by what they worship. :wink:

A lovely story to tell people to value their shaman above their family.

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