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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:59 pm 
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mikegriffith1 wrote:
Actually, if you understand the Hebraic background of the Book of Mormon, you can clearly see that the Book of Mormon teaches that there are three separate divine beings in the Godhead and that the Son is subordinate to the Father.


The Hebraic? Even the Hebrews didn't understand their God as a member of a threesome Godhead. What does Hebrew background bring that isn't normally grapsed?

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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:09 pm 
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mikegriffith1 wrote:
Actually, if you understand the Hebraic background of the Book of Mormon, you can clearly see that the Book of Mormon teaches that there are three separate divine beings in the Godhead and that the Son is subordinate to the Father.


Actually, it doesn't teach that in the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon doesn't teach that there are three separate divine beings in the Godhead and that the Son is subordinate to the Father.

2nd Nephi:

11:7 ...But there is a God, and he is Christ, and he cometh in the fulness of his own time.

26:12 And as I spake concerning the convincing of the Jews, that Jesus is the very Christ, it must needs be that the Gentiles be convinced also that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God;


Mosiah:

3:8 And he shall be called Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and his mother shall be called Mary.

5:15 Therefore, I would that ye should be steadfast and immovable, always abounding in good works, that Christ, the Lord God Omnipotent, may seal you his, that you may be brought to heaven, that ye may have everlasting salvation and eternal life, through the wisdom, and power, and justice, and mercy of him who created all things, in heaven and in earth, who is God above all. Amen.

7:27 And because he said unto them that Christ was the God, the Father of all things, and said that he should take upon him the image of man, and it should be the image after which man was created in the beginning; or in other words, he said that man was created after the image of God, and that God should come down among the children of men, and take upon him flesh and blood, and go forth upon the face of the earth --


Alma:

11:38-39 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?
And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;

11:44 ...but every thing shall be restored to its perfect frame, as it is now, or in the body, and shall be brought and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil.


Helaman:

14:12 And also that ye might know of the coming of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Father of heaven and of earth, the Creator of all things from the beginning; and that ye might know of the signs of his coming, to the intent that ye might believe on his name.


3rd Nephi:

11:14 Arise and come forth unto me, that ye may thrust your hands into my side, and also that ye may feel the prints of the nails in my hands and in my feet, that ye may know that I am the God of Israel, and the God of the whole earth, and have been slain for the sins of the world.

11:36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.


Ether:

3:14 ...Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.



And we have also 1st Nephi 11:18, 11:21, 11:32, and 13:40 from the 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon:

11:18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin which thou seest is the mother of God after the manner of the flesh.

11:21 And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father.

11:32 ...And I looked and beheld the Lamb of God, that he was taken by the people, yea, the everlasting God was judged of the world.

13:40 ...that the Lamb of God is the Eternal Father and the Savior of the world; and that all men must come unto Him, or they cannot be saved.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:39 am 
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Has the Celestial Forum now become a Ghost town?? There is not anybody posting around here anymore.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 9:39 am 
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mikegriffith1 wrote:
Actually, if you understand the Hebraic background of the Book of Mormon, you can clearly see that the Book of Mormon teaches that there are three separate divine beings in the Godhead and that the Son is subordinate to the Father.


That's exactly what The Creeds teach, Three separate and distinct persons and line 33 of the Athanasion Creed says Jesus was subordinate and inferior to the Father

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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 8:34 am 
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mikegriffith1 wrote:
Actually, if you understand the Hebraic background of the Book of Mormon, you can clearly see that the Book of Mormon teaches that there are three separate divine beings in the Godhead and that the Son is subordinate to the Father.


Really, Mike? You know there are a lot of Hebrew scholars in the world but...funny, they aren't Mormon. In fact most of them are Jewish and if you ask them about the Book of Mormon they will probably laugh their a@@es off. Try it. :lol:

I met Jonathan Shunary when he was working at BYU on a Hebrew translation of the Bible. He confided in me that he found it utterly unbelievable but it was a paying job. :lol: Jonathan was not LDS, you see.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 7:11 pm 
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Maksutov wrote:
I met Jonathan Shunary when he was working at BYU on a Hebrew translation of the Bible. He confided in me that he found it utterly unbelievable but it was a paying job. :lol: Jonathan was not LDS, you see.

Was he the author who wrote:
Quote:
Cows and Oxen in a tropical rainforest?
Israelites speaking Egyptian 600 years after the exodus?
Steel. Oh, and STEEL?

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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:06 pm 
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The Athanasion clearly teaches the subornation of Jesus to God the Father on line 33

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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2018 7:13 am 
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Exiled wrote:
It was a man made invention just like the bible.

What I don't understand with people like yourself is that the Bible is nothing like any other literature written by all the so called sophisticated pagan cultures that existed 4000 plus odd years ago. The Bible is entirely different in character then other "religious" literature of the period. Yet atheists will often say the Bible is the work of a bunch of know nothing nomadic shepherds... Read the Bible and then read even the book of Mormon and you will note differences. The book of Mormon is at best quaint. The Bible is authoritative. The book of Mormon is akin to some romantic novel of the 19th century written in fake Elizabethan twang. My bet is that you never read anything but watch but animas...


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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:34 am 
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The Bible is a deliberate political curation of Iron Age blog posts, written by people with an agenda who mostly didn't witness the events about which they are exaggerating blogging, pulled together by manipulative people with an agenda around power and control. Its contents are so ambiguous that they can be used to justify both ends and the middle depending on what the agenda of the person reading into them is.

The Book Of Mormon is likewise an attempt at assuming power through the use of religious-based writing with barely hidden agenda of aggrandising and justifying the acts and intentions and status of the person involved in its production.

If you need either to keep your decision making "christlike" then you must be a pretty lousy human.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 7:40 am 
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I have a question wrote:
The Bible is a deliberate political curation of Iron Age blog posts, written by people with an agenda who mostly didn't witness the events about which they are exaggerating blogging, pulled together by manipulative people with an agenda around power and control. Its contents are so ambiguous that they can be used to justify both ends and the middle depending on what the agenda of the person reading into them is.

The Book Of Mormon is likewise an attempt at assuming power through the use of religious-based writing with barely hidden agenda of aggrandising and justifying the acts and intentions and status of the person involved in its production.

If you need either to keep your decision making "christlike" then you must be a pretty lousy human.

So what agenda did Adam have? What agenda did Job have? What agenda do you have?


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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:38 am 
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LittleNipper wrote:
I have a question wrote:
The Bible is a deliberate political curation of Iron Age blog posts, written by people with an agenda who mostly didn't witness the events about which they are exaggerating blogging, pulled together by manipulative people with an agenda around power and control. Its contents are so ambiguous that they can be used to justify both ends and the middle depending on what the agenda of the person reading into them is.

The Book Of Mormon is likewise an attempt at assuming power through the use of religious-based writing with barely hidden agenda of aggrandising and justifying the acts and intentions and status of the person involved in its production.

If you need either to keep your decision making "christlike" then you must be a pretty lousy human.

So what agenda did Adam have? What agenda did Job have? What agenda do you have?


'Adam' didn't write any of the works in the Bible.
'Job' didn't write Job.
I haven't written religious fiction and passed it off as real events, or curated a set of writings and passed it off as God being on my side.

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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:14 am 
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Paul did and so did Moses.


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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:55 am 
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LittleNipper wrote:
Paul did and so did Moses.


Paul and Moses did what?

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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:34 am 
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I have a question wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
Paul did and so did Moses.


Paul and Moses did what?
They were used of GOD to write portions of the Bible. One Old and the other New Testament.


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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:32 am 
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I have a question wrote:
LittleNipper wrote:
Paul did and so did Moses.


Paul and Moses did what?
LittleNipper wrote:
They were used of GOD to write portions of the Bible. One Old and the other New Testament.

Where did Adam and Job go?

What's your corroborating evidence that Moses was a real historical person?
Who wrote Mathew, Mark, Luke and John?

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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 6:54 am 
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I have a question wrote:
I have a question wrote:

Paul and Moses did what?
LittleNipper wrote:
They were used of GOD to write portions of the Bible. One Old and the other New Testament.

Where did Adam and Job go?

What's your corroborating evidence that Moses was a real historical person?
Who wrote Mathew, Mark, Luke and John?

Adam and Job eventually died and want to Paradise. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote MATTHEW, MARK, LUKE and JOHN... You may wish to consider: https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/dai ... r-fiction/


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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:09 am 
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I have a question wrote:
I have a question wrote:

Paul and Moses did what?
LittleNipper wrote:
They were used of GOD to write portions of the Bible. One Old and the other New Testament.

Where did Adam and Job go?

What's your corroborating evidence that Moses was a real historical person?
Who wrote Mathew, Mark, Luke and John?

LittleNipper wrote:
Adam and Job eventually died and want to Paradise.
I meant in terms of you using them to make your point....<poof>they disappeared...
Quote:
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote MATTHEW, MARK, LUKE and JOHN... You may wish to consider: https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/dai ... r-fiction/
I followed the link but can't find the support for actual people called Mathew, Mark, Luke and John authoring the gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. Perhaps you can post the excerpt you had in mind...

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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 8:16 pm 
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I have a question wrote:
I have a question wrote:
Where did Adam and Job go?

What's your corroborating evidence that Moses was a real historical person?
Who wrote Mathew, Mark, Luke and John?

LittleNipper wrote:
Adam and Job eventually died and went to Paradise.
I meant in terms of you using them to make your point....<poof>they disappeared...
Quote:
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote MATTHEW, MARK, LUKE and JOHN... You may wish to consider: https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/dai ... r-fiction/
I followed the link but can't find the support for actual people called Mathew, Mark, Luke and John authoring the gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. Perhaps you can post the excerpt you had in mind...


Well, I was explaining the fact of Exodus. However, you may wish to see the following: https://carm.org/when-were-gospels-written-and-by-whom


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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:47 pm 
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I have a question wrote:
I have a question wrote:
Where did Adam and Job go?

What's your corroborating evidence that Moses was a real historical person?
Who wrote Mathew, Mark, Luke and John?

LittleNipper wrote:
Adam and Job eventually died and went to Paradise.
I meant in terms of you using them to make your point....<poof>they disappeared...
Quote:
Matthew, Mark, Luke and John wrote MATTHEW, MARK, LUKE and JOHN... You may wish to consider: https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/dai ... r-fiction/
I followed the link but can't find the support for actual people called Mathew, Mark, Luke and John authoring the gospels of Mathew, Mark, Luke and John. Perhaps you can post the excerpt you had in mind...


LittleNipper wrote:
Well, I was explaining the fact of Exodus.
I don't think 'fact' is the appropriate adjective for describing myth and legend that's been objectively disproved.
Quote:
However, you may wish to see the following: https://carm.org/when-were-gospels-written-and-by-whom

You may wish to see the following: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historica ... p_and_date

Quote:
Tradition holds that the Gospel of Mark was written by Mark the Evangelist, as St. Peter's interpreter.[68] Numerous early sources say that Mark's material was dictated to him by St. Peter, who later compiled it into his gospel.[71][72][73][74][75] The gospel, however, appears to rely on several underlying sources, which vary in form and in theology, and which tell against the story that the gospel was based on Peter's preaching.[76]

Most scholars believe that Mark was written by a second-generation Christian, around or shortly after the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Second Temple in year 70.[77][78][79]

Quote:
According to the majority viewpoint, this gospel is unlikely to have been written by an eyewitness.[86] While Papias reported that Matthew had written the "Logia," this can hardly be a reference to the Gospel of Matthew.[86] The author was probably a Jewish Christian writing for other Jewish Christians.[90]

Quote:
It is generally agreed that the Gospel of Luke and the Acts of the Apostles were both written by the same author, and they are often referred to as a single work called Luke-Acts.[110] The most direct evidence comes from the prefaces of each book. Both prefaces were addressed to Theophilus, and Acts of the Apostles (1:1-2) says in reference to the Gospel of Luke, "In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and teach until the day He was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles He had chosen." (NIV) Furthermore, there are linguistic and theological similarities between the two works, suggesting that they have a common author.[111][112] Both books also contain common interests.[113]

Quote:
In the majority viewpoint, it is unlikely that John the Apostle wrote the Gospel of John.[117][118] Rather than a plain account of Jesus' ministry, the gospel is a deeply mediated representation of Jesus' character and teachings, making direct apostolic authorship unlikely.[119] Opinion, however, is widely divided on this issue and there is no widespread consensus.[120][121] Many scholars believe that the "beloved disciple" is a person who heard and followed Jesus, and the gospel of John is based heavily on the witness of this "beloved disciple."[122]

Most scholars date the Gospel of John to c. 90–110.[123]

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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:45 am 
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I have a question wrote:
I have a question wrote:
[]Tradition holds that the Gospel of Mark was written by Mark the Evangelist, as St. Peter's interpreter.[68] Numerous early sources say that Mark's material was dictated to him by St. Peter, who later compiled it into his gospel.[71][72][73][74][75] The gospel, however, appears to rely on several underlying sources, which vary in form and in theology, and which tell against the story that the gospel was based on Peter's preaching.[76]

Most scholars believe that Mark was written by a second-generation Christian, around or shortly after the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Second Temple in year 70.[77][78][79]

Quote:
According to the majority viewpoint, this gospel is unlikely to have been written by an eyewitness.[86] While Papias reported that Matthew had written the "Logia," this can hardly be a reference to the Gospel of Matthew.[86] The author was probably a Jewish Christian writing for other Jewish Christians.[90]

Quote:
It is generally agreed that the Gospel of Luke and the Acts of the Apostles were both written by the same author, and they are often referred to as a single work called Luke-Acts.[110] The most direct evidence comes from the prefaces of each book. Both prefaces were addressed to Theophilus, and Acts of the Apostles (1:1-2) says in reference to the Gospel of Luke, "In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and teach until the day He was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles He had chosen." (NIV) Furthermore, there are linguistic and theological similarities between the two works, suggesting that they have a common author.[111][112] Both books also contain common interests.[113]

Quote:
In the majority viewpoint, it is unlikely that John the Apostle wrote the Gospel of John.[117][118] Rather than a plain account of Jesus' ministry, the gospel is a deeply mediated representation of Jesus' character and teachings, making direct apostolic authorship unlikely.[119] Opinion, however, is widely divided on this issue and there is no widespread consensus.[120][121] Many scholars believe that the "beloved disciple" is a person who heard and followed Jesus, and the gospel of John is based heavily on the witness of this "beloved disciple."[122]

Most scholars date the Gospel of John to c. 90–110.[123]

Most scholars do not date the Gospel of John to 110. There is every indication that it was written before 70 AD (no reference to the FALL OF THE TEMPLE). However some suggest that it might have been written as late as 80 AD. Even Revelations is dated to only about 95 AD and that is the last book of the Bible written and sealed. John is the only disciple to have a natural death, though he was reputed to have once been boiled in oil and left for dead --- only to revive. As for Mathew, he is felt to have been an educated doctor, as he made detailed observations and even noted the blood and water that poured from the wound Jesus received while on the cross --- the one bit of forensic evidence that proves Jesus was dead (the blood separates).


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 Post subject: Re: Why does The Book of Mormon teach 4th and 5th century Cr
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:47 am 
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