It is currently Sun Aug 19, 2018 3:41 am

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 57 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:22 am 
1st Counselor

Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:55 am
Posts: 456
I have a question wrote:
And here’s the other point about eternity, decision making is irrelevant. Because eternity. You literally don’t need to make any decision because there’s no time relationship. You just are, forever.


Eternity can mean of unending duration (of time), atemporal, or just some property that is infinite. Or just hyperbole pointing to one of those. While some will push for atemporality that's hard to reconcile with Mormonism and requires God be a kind of platonic entity of some sort.

While one can always debate the texts, typically God even in heaven is portrayed as acting, having feelings and doing things and thus being temporal. The main reason some lay Mormons get confused is because of the KJV of Rev 10:6 as "And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer." This is generally just seen as a bad translation. The NIV puts it as "And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, "There will be no more delay!"

There are arguments against endless duration that go back to the medieval era of course. The Stoics thought the problem with infinite duration is that eventually you get repetition. (Thus the Eternal Return that later Niezsche made use of) However there's no real reason to assume the size of the set of time durations is the same cardinality as the set of possibilities.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2018 1:28 am 
1st Counselor

Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:55 am
Posts: 456
Mittens wrote:
Mormons teach God is not all knowing , even thou the Book of Mormon says he is

God himself is increasing and progressing in knowledge, power, and dominion, and will do so, worlds without end." Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Discourses Vol. 6:120

2 Nephi 9:20 O how great the holiness of our God! For he knoweth all things, and there is not anything save he knows it.


There's different types of knowledge. There's knowledge of propositions. There's experiential knowledge. There's familial knowledge. To see the difference consider the sunrise tomorrow morning. I know what it will be like. But that's not the same as the knowledge of experiencing it. Likewise even if I know what my experiences of knowing someone would be like, that's not the same as knowing them and being in a relationship with them. Finally there's know-how which isn't the same as knowledge-that. It's easy to conflate these types of knowledge.

It's quite possible God could be complete in one of these and incomplete in others.

However even if one just sticks to propositions, it's quite possible he could know all the knowable propositions at T1 but there be new propositions at T2. So one could have all knowledge yet the set of knowledge still increases with time.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 12:52 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:19 pm
Posts: 10619
Location: Multiverse
ClarkGoble wrote:
I have a question wrote:
And here’s the other point about eternity, decision making is irrelevant. Because eternity. You literally don’t need to make any decision because there’s no time relationship. You just are, forever.


Eternity can mean of unending duration (of time), atemporal, or just some property that is infinite. Or just hyperbole pointing to one of those. While some will push for atemporality that's hard to reconcile with Mormonism and requires God be a kind of platonic entity of some sort.

While one can always debate the texts, typically God even in heaven is portrayed as acting, having feelings and doing things and thus being temporal. The main reason some lay Mormons get confused is because of the KJV of Rev 10:6 as "And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer." This is generally just seen as a bad translation. The NIV puts it as "And he swore by him who lives for ever and ever, who created the heavens and all that is in them, the earth and all that is in it, and the sea and all that is in it, and said, "There will be no more delay!"

There are arguments against endless duration that go back to the medieval era of course. The Stoics thought the problem with infinite duration is that eventually you get repetition. (Thus the Eternal Return that later Niezsche made use of) However there's no real reason to assume the size of the set of time durations is the same cardinality as the set of possibilities.


Interesting. When we speak of "God", which god are we talking about? Is there a chain of supreme beings without beginning? Beings which must exist within time don't sound like they transcend it and so they are still subject to greater forces.

_________________
You have made this ludicrous assertion about Israelite religion in the New World. Produce one shred of non-faith based evidence to prove it. --Philip Jenkins


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2018 7:21 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 2:42 pm
Posts: 19127
Location: Koloburbia
Perhaps eternity could be defined as being one Celestial Day, which is the interval between big bangs.

Wonder if that definition could be ratified by the Brethren and codified in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism and the Ensign? Such a definition would give a big boost to our peculiarity.

_________________
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 10:45 am 
1st Counselor

Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:55 am
Posts: 456
Maksutov wrote:
Interesting. When we speak of "God", which god are we talking about? Is there a chain of supreme beings without beginning? Beings which must exist within time don't sound like they transcend it and so they are still subject to greater forces.


I'd say this is much more open in Mormon theology than most realize. Most Mormons views are at best established by reading the harmonized King Follet Discourse. However the original notes out of which the published version arose make it a little less sure than some assume. That's why you can have on the major theologians in the Church, Blake Ostler, fully rejecting a Brigham Young or Orson Pratt styled endless regress of gods

Now I'll admit I favor the more traditional interpretation from early Utah. But I have to admit that theologically things are more open than many realize.

To the issue of time, transcendence gets tricky here. Consider for instance the notion of a multiverse that pops up in many speculative conceptions of physics. (PhysicsGuy can chime in here since I know he's an expert in string theory whereas I am anything but) What's the implications of a multiverse theologically? If we assume some kind of information flow as possible between universes yet their having a somewhat independent time line (say more Lee Smolin's multiverse in loop quantum gravity rather than branes in string theory) then you can have something both in time yet transcendent of a particular time.

The way to think of this I suspect is to consider each universe as "whole" at the moment of creation. That is you assume a more Einstein-like block universe. God might be transcendent to it temporally but also appear within it.

Again, not saying that's the case. I raise this just to note that the possibilities are much more open than they appear. Especially if we take physics seriously. Blake Ostler I should note tends to reject a realist interpretation to General Relativity. That's primarily due to his conception of free will which tends to be the ontological position with the highest commitment in his scheme. If you reject his conception of free will then a block universe is much less problematic and there's a lot more possibilities open theologically. Personally I think any theological position has to grapple with physics as we know it. Too much theology avoids such issues.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 4:24 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:44 pm
Posts: 1564
ClarkGoble wrote:
What's the implications of a multiverse theologically?

For LDS it's an absolute necessity due to the implications of an exponential growth rate of resurrected bodies with each new generation of gods giving birth to their own offspring and also due to the implications of the accelerating expansion of our own universe such that the reachable parts of it are decreasing in volume with the passage of time.

Currently there is no evidence of a multiverse but LIGO may discover something.

Quote:
Especially if we take physics seriously.


Well if we don't, we better ditch the GPS app on our cell phones. ;)

Quote:
Personally I think any theological position has to grapple with physics as we know it.


It also has to grapple with biology and geology as we know it. Careful, your black box might consume your backyard. If you accept biological evolution I'd like to hear how it's reconciled with your version of LDS theology. I've yet to hear anyone explain how it could possibly be a fit.

Quote:
Effectively Sherem is asking for the theophany without being ready for it. And as Indiana Jones found out, that doesn’t work too well for the wicked.


I'd also like a primer on how glorified resurrected bodies fit in with the standard model of particle physics - if you have the time.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2018 6:08 pm 
1st Counselor

Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:55 am
Posts: 456
spotlight wrote:
ClarkGoble wrote:
What's the implications of a multiverse theologically?

For LDS it's an absolute necessity due to the implications of an exponential growth rate of resurrected bodies with each new generation of gods giving birth to their own offspring and also due to the implications of the accelerating expansion of our own universe such that the reachable parts of it are decreasing in volume with the passage of time.


It's not necessarily exponential growth. That presupposes each individual creates their own universe. While that's a popular view there's really no evidence for it and arguably some evidence that creation is a collective endeavor. In that case it'd be linear. Although of course when dealing with infinity the difference between linear and exponential doesn't matter much.

Quote:
Currently there is no evidence of a multiverse but LIGO may discover something.


Yup. It's common in most unification models but there's zero empirical evidence for it. I'm not even sure what empirical evidence for it would look like

Quote:
Quote:
Personally I think any theological position has to grapple with physics as we know it.


It also has to grapple with biology and geology as we know it. Careful, your black box might consume your backyard. If you accept biological evolution I'd like to hear how it's reconciled with your version of LDS theology. I've yet to hear anyone explain how it could possibly be a fit.


I don't have a problem with evolution. I just think there were pre-Adamites. i.e. Adam is father by adoption not necessarily birth. Joseph might not have understood that, but then the law of adoption wasn't really well understood by him. (I'm still not entirely sure why) That really starts up with Brigham's vision of Joseph while in a fever but really becomes doctrine more after his death with Woodruff and later figures.

It is also interesting that contemporary "prophets" of Joseph Smith held to the idea of pre-Adamites. I can't recall his name but there was a Catholic German figure claiming to speak to Jesus who wrote a lot about that prior to the significant rise of Darwin. You then also have somewhat ambiguous comments by Hyrum Smith and others. Finally you also have racist theology of pre-Adamites as a justification for slavery that probably would have been known at the time. (It wasn't adopted the way Brigham adopted the questionable readings about Canaanites from southern slavery apologetics though)

Quote:
I'd also like a primer on how glorified resurrected bodies fit in with the standard model of particle physics - if you have the time.


What problem do you see? To me the main issue is faster than light communication but I think a multiverse somewhat deals with that even if the implications might be troublesome for certain conceptions of free will.

I've no idea what a resurrected body is made from but it's presumably matter of some sort.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:36 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:44 pm
Posts: 1564
Thanks for the reply. So biologically we have some of Adam's DNA as well as DNA from other progenitors contemporaneous with Adam as well?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:01 am 
God

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:43 pm
Posts: 12564
ClarkGoble wrote:
I don't have a problem with evolution. I just think there were pre-Adamites. i.e. Adam is father by adoption not necessarily birth.


It never made sense if humans were already running around the earth why you would need Adam and Eve. The story is about how humans came about. Just like there was no tower of babel, but it was a story that came about explaining why we see so many different people and languages.

_________________
42


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 11:38 am 
God
User avatar

Joined: Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:49 am
Posts: 8121
Location: Somewhere between bemused and curious.
Themis wrote:
ClarkGoble wrote:
I don't have a problem with evolution. I just think there were pre-Adamites. i.e. Adam is father by adoption not necessarily birth.


It never made sense if humans were already running around the earth why you would need Adam and Eve. The story is about how humans came about. Just like there was no tower of babel, but it was a story that came about explaining why we see so many different people and languages.


Yeah, the "pre-Adamite" explanation actually raises more questions than it solves from a Mormon theological point of view.Claiming pre-Adamites changes early biblical stories like the flood and Garden of Eden into myths and is pretty much just a step before claiming Adam & Eve are just myths too.

_________________
"The lives we lead now are not dress rehearsals, they are the only performance we have. Therefore what matters is what we have here, the people we know and and love and the good we can do for the world"
Sean Carroll


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 12:43 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:19 pm
Posts: 10619
Location: Multiverse
Fence Sitter wrote:

Yeah, the "pre-Adamite" explanation actually raises more questions than it solves from a Mormon theological point of view.Claiming pre-Adamites changes early biblical stories like the flood and Garden of Eden into myths and is pretty much just a step before claiming Adam & Eve are just myths too.


This is cool. Not only does it leave room for pre-Nephites and pre-Jaredites, it leaves room for pre-God, pre-Jesus, pre-Satan, pre-Holy Spirit and all the ponderizing and merchandising that comes with them. :biggrin:

_________________
You have made this ludicrous assertion about Israelite religion in the New World. Produce one shred of non-faith based evidence to prove it. --Philip Jenkins


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 1:20 pm 
1st Counselor

Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:55 am
Posts: 456
Fence Sitter wrote:
Yeah, the "pre-Adamite" explanation actually raises more questions than it solves from a Mormon theological point of view.Claiming pre-Adamites changes early biblical stories like the flood and Garden of Eden into myths and is pretty much just a step before claiming Adam & Eve are just myths too.


I don't think that follows. After all Joseph had already pretty well made where Adam and Eve were expelled to as Missouri. The Garden of Eden seems different. If you're a "no death before the fall" type then the Garden of Eden is really the whole planet and the planet as a whole falls with Adam. I don't think that makes any sense at all. The other view (which lines up much better with heavenly ascent literature from the 1st century) is that Eden is a heaven closer to heaven. That is, a different place from this world. The text pretty well suggests that since an angel is guarding the entrance - this later becomes angelic guardians for each level in heavenly ascents during the apocalypse literary period. In Nauvoo Mormonism they adopt the Masonic tyler to become this angel guardian the endowment where there is a return via a heavenly ascent. (Not really part of the contemporary endowment except a trace where the guy checks you before going up the elevator when you've received your name)

So Eden really isn't an issue if it's already an other heaven. Traditionally the 3rd and there are hints Joseph knew this based upon how he comments upon Paul's visit to the third heaven. I'd have to check but there may be part of the tradition in Masonry as well.

Anyway, with pre-Adamites you have Adam and Eve cast out of Eden into an already existing Missouri (or somewhere else if one doesn't trust Joseph there). No need to assume it's a myth.

The flood likewise is dealt with. Most of the apologists were pushing for a local flood long ago. It was ubiquitous in the 90's. Even way back Nibley had pushed a spectator theory where Noah could only describe what he saw, and if it looked like everything was flooded that's what he wrote. Joseph, according to one account, had Noah living in the Carolinas so it could easily be explained as a local hurricane that wiped out the people.

From a more contemporary view, one can easily adopt the Documentary Hypothesis here. We know that the Noah account was a combination of at least two accounts compiled into its present form by the Priestly tradition most likely in the post-exilic period. As such, it's already corrupt textually. So that offers an easy third way between so-called "literalism" and myth.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 2:56 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:44 pm
Posts: 1564
ClarkGoble wrote:
Anyway, with pre-Adamites you have Adam and Eve cast out of Eden into an already existing Missouri (or somewhere else if one doesn't trust Joseph there). No need to assume it's a myth. .


So Adam's biological father is?

And he lives for over 900 years while the pre-Adamites live normal short life-spans? And yet their DNA is compatible enough to intermarry?

The endogenous retroviruses in our DNA prove we are related to the other apes. Did they exist in Adam's DNA? If not, his DNA would be less like the pre-Adamites DNA (and our current DNA) than that of a chimp's.

This doesn't even begin to make any sense.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:10 pm 
1st Counselor

Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:55 am
Posts: 456
spotlight wrote:
So Adam's biological father is?


Don't think there need be a fixed answer there. One could come up with different interpretations. One is that Eden is a terrestrial world and that Adam and Eve there weren't biologically humans although they were functionally human. The fall, if one takes it historically, would thus becoming like the humans already living on earth. But there's lots of other possibilities.

Quote:
And he lives for over 900 years while the pre-Adamites live normal short life-spans? And yet their DNA is compatible enough to intermarry?


Those adopting these positions will, partially on the basis of the Documentary Hypothesis and partially on the basis of the warning about scriptural corruption in Nephi's vision, simply attribute a large degree of corruption to the Old Testament. So they're not bound to take the ages seriously.

Quote:
The endogenous retroviruses in our DNA prove we are related to the other apes. Did they exist in Adam's DNA? If not, his DNA would be less like the pre-Adamites DNA (and our current DNA) than that of a chimp's.


The whole idea in this model is that the fall is becoming a fallen human and thus having DNA. I rather doubt resurrected bodies are tied to the chemistry of DNA even if they have the appearance of human bodies.

Quote:
This doesn't even begin to make any sense.


Hope that helps.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:24 pm 
God

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:43 pm
Posts: 12564
ClarkGoble wrote:
The whole idea in this model is that the fall is becoming a fallen human and thus having DNA. I rather doubt resurrected bodies are tied to the chemistry of DNA even if they have the appearance of human bodies.


Always fun when one has no constraints to make up BS to fit what they want to believe. Maybe I should start taking Lord of the Rings more seriously as history.

_________________
42


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:39 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:19 pm
Posts: 10619
Location: Multiverse
Themis wrote:
ClarkGoble wrote:
The whole idea in this model is that the fall is becoming a fallen human and thus having DNA. I rather doubt resurrected bodies are tied to the chemistry of DNA even if they have the appearance of human bodies.


Always fun when one has no constraints to make up BS to fit what they want to believe. Maybe I should start taking Lord of the Rings more seriously as history.


I believe this is called "Studying it out in your mind". :lol:

_________________
You have made this ludicrous assertion about Israelite religion in the New World. Produce one shred of non-faith based evidence to prove it. --Philip Jenkins


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 4:32 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:44 pm
Posts: 1564
ClarkGoble wrote:
Those adopting these positions will, partially on the basis of the Documentary Hypothesis and partially on the basis of the warning about scriptural corruption in Nephi's vision, simply attribute a large degree of corruption to the Old Testament. So they're not bound to take the ages seriously.

So the book of Moses is deprecated now?


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 6:59 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:44 pm
Posts: 1564
Clark Goble wrote:
It's not necessarily exponential growth. That presupposes each individual creates their own universe.

It presupposes each individual that makes it to the highest degree of the celestial gets to have offspring, and that more than one of those becomes exalted having offspring themselves and so on whether or not this happens in the same universe or within a multiverse.

Quote:
While that's a popular view there's really no evidence for it and arguably some evidence that creation is a collective endeavor. In that case it'd be linear.

Please elaborate here. I have no idea what this means. I am referring to creation being a collective endeavor in reference to giving birth to offspring and how that makes the population growth of gods linear. When someone makes the highest degree of the Celestial and has a continuation of the seeds forevermore they don't actually use that seed to produce offspring?

Quote:
Although of course when dealing with infinity the difference between linear and exponential doesn't matter much.

An ever increasing rate of consumption of matter for god bodies is not possible in a single universe. The boundary of that space occupied by god bodies would have to accelerate and would approach the speed of light which itself would require an energy input that approaches infinity. If there is a multiverse then the problem still exists as the creation of additional universes to shovel the god bodies into has to accelerate. It's nonsense. It's the principle behind a nuclear bomb. A single bacterium if allowed to double every half hour would result in a mass equivalent of the earth in a few days and if allowed to continue beyond that for a couple more days would achieve an equivalent mass of the entire known universe.

Quote:
Effectively Sherem is asking for the theophany without being ready for it. And as Indiana Jones found out, that doesn’t work too well for the wicked.

I'd also like a primer on how glorified resurrected bodies fit in with the standard model of particle physics - if you have the time.
Quote:
What problem do you see?

The problem is the idea that the manner in which the matter of one's body reacts to the same physical stimulus depends upon righteousness or a lack thereof.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2018 7:22 pm 
God
User avatar

Joined: Wed Sep 25, 2013 7:44 pm
Posts: 1564
Themis wrote:
ClarkGoble wrote:
The whole idea in this model is that the fall is becoming a fallen human and thus having DNA. I rather doubt resurrected bodies are tied to the chemistry of DNA even if they have the appearance of human bodies.


Always fun when one has no constraints to make up BS to fit what they want to believe. Maybe I should start taking Lord of the Rings more seriously as history.


Image


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:23 pm 
1st Counselor

Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:55 am
Posts: 456
Themis wrote:
Always fun when one has no constraints to make up BS to fit what they want to believe. Maybe I should start taking Lord of the Rings more seriously as history.


I think it's more about what we know implying constraints on what we believe. Honest people should make those adjustments. However there's then a reasonable range of possible beliefs. It's not "making up...to fit what they want to believe." Now of course if you come from the view people should only believe in what has been reasonably established scientifically that's fine. Although there are problems with that approach as well.

spotlight wrote:
It presupposes each individual that makes it to the highest degree of the celestial gets to have offspring, and that more than one of those becomes exalted having offspring themselves and so on whether or not this happens in the same universe or within a multiverse.


Yes. And of course one can always challenge those presuppositions as some theological writers like Blake Ostler have.

Clark wrote:
While that's a popular view there's really no evidence for it and arguably some evidence that creation is a collective endeavor. In that case it'd be linear.

spotlight wrote:
Please elaborate here. I have no idea what this means. I am referring to creation being a collective endeavor in reference to giving birth to offspring and how that makes the population growth of gods linear.


Continuation of seed could involve adoption rather than spirit birth. That's becoming a more popular position among theological thinkers. (Primarily due to the lack of explicit doctrine on spirit birth until Brigham Young, Orson Pratt and others start pushing it after the martyrdom)

All I'm really saying is that it could be either linear or exponential. Most assume the latter but that's not the only possibility. In either case, as I mentioned earlier, that becomes irrelevant when we're dealing with infinite sets. So in the more traditional sense where everyone becomes their own God to their own creation we might have an exponential like relationship except that creation never ends so it's really not exponential as one is not necessarily dealing with finite numbers. Put an other way, does the individual God the Father who created us have at this time a finite or infinite number of offspring (either by adoption or birth) That question highlights the issues.

Quote:
An ever increasing rate of consumption of matter for god bodies is not possible in a single universe.


Depends upon whether the size and energy in the universe is increasing at a sufficient rate. Most evidence for our universe presumes the energy isn't, so a collapse will happen. It's that collapse that's the bigger theological issue (IMO). However if resurrected beings need not stay in the same universe then obviously that's less of an issue.

Quote:
The problem is the idea that the manner in which the matter of one's body reacts to the same physical stimulus depends upon righteousness or a lack thereof.


That could be a primary or secondary effect. That is what is the role of the mind in the reaction? But if could also be some feedback to the spirit/soul and whatever mind-like aspects it has.

Quote:
I'd also like a primer on how glorified resurrected bodies fit in with the standard model of particle physics - if you have the time.


Again not sure what you're asking. We don't know what type of matter the bodies are made of so it's hard to say much. We're also not entirely clear if the standard model particles even covers the types of matter physicists can measure such as dark matter.

spotlight wrote:
So the book of Moses is deprecated now?


No. But it doesn't follow that the Book of Moses was a restoration of an original text nor that it was complete in the sense of correcting every bit of Genesis that remains in the Book of Moses. Indeed there are compelling reasons to think it's not. Both because of Joseph's later work on Genesis (say the treatment of Genesis 1 in the King Follet Discourse) but also simply due to looking at the nature of the JST in total. If the primary function of the JST isn't to restore a pure text had by Jews at some point but to use a 2cd century text of Genesis that was had in a flawed translation (KJV) and primarily focus on reference (what the text is about) rather than the original text then I don't think there's much problem. As I think I mentioned while Robert Matthews vacillated in how he viewed the JST, often treating it as restoring text, I think since the 90's that theory has been difficult to support. The obvious argument for that position are the continued changes to the text after the initial "translation" and places where he translated the text twice.

My point is just that how we approach the JST including the Book of Mose matters. Often the presuppositions we bring for exegesis are themselves not argued for. For instance, many read Moses 2 in light of Moses 1 and use it to argue for an unity of the Torah. Whereas I think a more defensible reading is that Moses 1 is a separate revelation and not a statement on Genesis - Deuteronomy.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Three Heavens or Degrees of Glory
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 2:38 pm 
God

Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:43 pm
Posts: 12564
ClarkGoble wrote:
I think it's more about what we know implying constraints on what we believe. Honest people should make those adjustments. However there's then a reasonable range of possible beliefs. It's not "making up...to fit what they want to believe." Now of course if you come from the view people should only believe in what has been reasonably established scientifically that's fine. Although there are problems with that approach as well.


LOL The stuff you have come up with is certainly not being constrained by what you know. The idea that a human had no DNA until after the fall is making things up. You don't have any reasonable evidence, even from LDS teachings, to speculate this.

_________________
42


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 57 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Revival Theme By Brandon Designs By B.Design-Studio © 2007-2008 Brandon
Revival Theme Based off SubLite By Echo © 2007-2008 Echo
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group