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 Post subject: Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP
PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:34 am 
God
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I understand love and reverence. But not "worship". Different drummer, I guess.

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Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. --Jeremiah 23:16


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 Post subject: Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP
PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:12 pm 
God
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Amore wrote:

1. "Jesus is Savior, next to (or actually to some) God. He died for me (human sacrifice) and paid for my sins (scapegoat). For some, there is overwhelming shame with past mistakes. Mostly, it's my own cognitive distortions (like polarized thinking) that causes me to punitively fear considering my mistakes - so there may be a lot of denial. This idea of Jesus may serve to help me up until I can handle more."

2. "Jesus did suffer for me, so I owe him something. I'm going to be as good as I can be. Deep down, I'm beginning to sense that the idea of human sacrifice scapegoating is wrong, but everyone around me tells me it's right and it's much easier to believe (especially when I'm told if I don't I'll go to hell) than to question."

3. "Rejecting it all. No, Jesus did not die for me, nor pay for my sins because human sacrifice scapegoating is illogical and immoral.

. Coming back to reconsider Christianity without the dogma... God loves me as evident by my beating heart. I don't need to imagine human sacrifice to appreciate my many saviors who have helped and loved me. I don't need scapegoating; instead, I'm taking response-ability and make at-one what I've screwed up to my best ability and then forgive myself and others for human weakness.

* Some say Jesus was the arch-type of Free Speech. He was kind and loving at times, but he also showed love by striving for what's best in others in pointing out what they were trying to deny, making him unashamedly politically incorrect.
*Forgave even the worst offenses because after all his soul searching he understood, "they know not what they do."

Amore, I think there are distortions bouncing around in Christianity. A variety of events in history clearly point to that. I can appreciate that you are doing real personal thinking about that.

Last night I read through your post and had some rather negative reactions. I then thought I should think twice at least before complaining out of respect to your thought.

Perhaps I just have a couple of questions. You see the atonement is to my mind a very positive thing. To call atonement scapegoating is strange and a bit offensive to my ears. Human sacrifice is pretty broad, can refer to a variety of things with different meanings, I think calling Jesus death that does not clarify the meaning much.

I think any forgiveness involves taking on some suffering for others. It is not free. I realize Jesus looking about at his death did not think people knew what they are doing. I do not think that changes the fact that whole lot of human evil involves people knowing exactly what they are doing. I think that perhaps makes the confrontation, change and forgiveness more difficult.

One comment I have heard about the atonement that makes some sense to me is that it is about our fundamental respect and need for people to be willing to suffer for others.

I really liked your comment about Jesus politically incorrect free speech. It actually can be a bit hard to see how Jesus death was suffering for others. One window into that might be that he believed in the good possible future for people enough that he could not shut his mouth about it and that got him into the executioners sights.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormons seem confused who to WORSHIP
PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:01 am 
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huckelberry wrote:
Amore, I think there are distortions bouncing around in Christianity. A variety of events in history clearly point to that. I can appreciate that you are doing real personal thinking about that.

Last night I read through your post and had some rather negative reactions. I then thought I should think twice at least before complaining out of respect to your thought.

Perhaps I just have a couple of questions. You see the atonement is to my mind a very positive thing. To call atonement scapegoating is strange and a bit offensive to my ears. Human sacrifice is pretty broad, can refer to a variety of things with different meanings, I think calling Jesus death that does not clarify the meaning much.

I think any forgiveness involves taking on some suffering for others. It is not free. I realize Jesus looking about at his death did not think people knew what they are doing. I do not think that changes the fact that whole lot of human evil involves people knowing exactly what they are doing. I think that perhaps makes the confrontation, change and forgiveness more difficult.

One comment I have heard about the atonement that makes some sense to me is that it is about our fundamental respect and need for people to be willing to suffer for others.

I really liked your comment about Jesus politically incorrect free speech. It actually can be a bit hard to see how Jesus death was suffering for others. One window into that might be that he believed in the good possible future for people enough that he could not shut his mouth about it and that got him into the executioners sights.

Well, first off, thank you for your respect, despite possible disagreements. Also, I'm still figuring a lot of this out, so if you ask me in another 5 years, I'll likely give you different answers.

Sorry to offend, but I may be so blunt as to offend more, & I apologize ahead of time for that too. I'd rather get it all out on the table - without having to lose clarity in trying to be politically or religiously correct (I'm glad you liked the idea of Jesus being for free-speech). I realize that the terms, "human sacrifice scapegoat" do sound kind of harsh, but isn't that what Christianity has warped into - if you get down to it? Obviously, no Christian is shouting, "Crucify him!! Kill him to appease our God and so we don't have to suffer!" However, they are choosing that illusion on which to base their faith - and it is an illusion based on idolatry - which is damning (holding people back).

It seems to me more as I look into it, that most people barely scratch the surface of the symbolism of Christianity. Repeatedly, Jesus said, essentially, "Come follow me and do what I do and more!" But what's been done mostly instead is make Jesus into a god up on a pedestal so high that there's no way to follow! It's a bit like kids who pretend to be superheroes - except then they become adults and live their lives as if it's a constant comic con, rather than being their own version of hero. The most difficult leap (which I'm still struggling with) is taking the reins of your own imagination in regards to your spiritual development. It's really difficult to let go of skepticism (Fowler's 4th stage) enough to explore your own psyche - subconscious, fears, dreams, hopes etc. Nobody can really tell you, "Huckelberry, you need to believe in this, because this is what really gets you pumped! Or this is what brings you comfort." We each need to figure it out ourselves.

When people (we all) screw up, they may know what they're doing, enough to do it, but they don't realize how what they do is indirectly hurting them. We're all connected ultimately & we have built-in empathy which they have to shut off in order to hurt another, so they are hurting themselves by kind of shutting off, subduing or killing a part of themselves. Each of us do this to an extent - and that's the thing that real Christian symbolism teaches: Within you is part god and part devil - deal with it! Don't pretend it doesn't exist and don't pretend it's too shameful to even consider - explore it, search your soul - it may feel like you're bleeding from every pour - but ultimately, you will overcome and be better and happier for it. You were born to do this.

Interesting point, interpreting to mean the necessity of suffering for each other. I suppose we all do this to some extent - except maybe hermits. As someone who's co-dependent (self-sacrificing, subjugating), I feel like I first need to get better at balancing loving myself along with others. But I see this self-sacrificing - as people like Martin Luther King, Mother Teresa and Jesus did - as the higher level of spiritual development. I imagine it is never perfect - still based on trial & error - but getting better - using reason and developed intuition to love most effectively. And no doubt, there is plenty of need of such love.


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