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 Post subject: Re: If you were to write a book. . . .
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:17 am 
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cwald wrote:
SPG wrote:
I left my reply in his quote as answers to his questions. It says a lot.... About both of us.

Please fix it. I don't want to look like an idget. It's not polite to deceive folks and misquote someone on purpose.

Sorry about that. I fixed it.


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 Post subject: Re: If you were to write a book. . . .
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:54 am 
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SPG wrote:
I am considering the writing of a book. I know, scary stuff. While I have been addressing questions on this topic for a long time, in my own fashion, I was curious what others in this boat would want to tell others.

As a little role playing, maybe pick one and write me a note.

If I were God.

If I were Joseph Smith (be nice)

If I were someone in your family you felt like you lost because of faith differences.

Thanks


Hi SPG

IMO, you should write a book about your third option, "If I were someone in your family you felt like you lost because of faith differences."

By far this is the most important of the three choices. Given how short life is and given how extremely valuable, rewarding and precious family can be for all involved, I would encourage you to consider choosing this topic for your book.

No matter what you decide though, good luck with the book.


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 Post subject: Re: If you were to write a book. . . .
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 11:21 am 
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Ceeboo wrote:
SPG wrote:
I am considering the writing of a book. I know, scary stuff. While I have been addressing questions on this topic for a long time, in my own fashion, I was curious what others in this boat would want to tell others.

As a little role playing, maybe pick one and write me a note.

If I were God.

If I were Joseph Smith (be nice)

If I were someone in your family you felt like you lost because of faith differences.

Thanks


Hi SPG

IMO, you should write a book about your third option, "If I were someone in your family you felt like you lost because of faith differences."

By far this is the most important of the three choices. Given how short life is and given how extremely valuable, rewarding and precious family can be for all involved, I would encourage you to consider choosing this topic for your book.

No matter what you decide though, good luck with the book.


Oddly, this is one hypocrisy of religion that really confuses me. Even though rejecting "non-believers" is as old as religion its self, most religions promote the roles and concepts of family. It's about identity. We build our family around the idea of God, so when someone rejects that core belief, the other members feel betrayed. They might even move to protect the purity of their identity by rejecting those who have changed.

I get that all even on this board. Many people have found a new family, one based on science and facts, and if I don't embrace their science and facts, they either try to force compliance or reject me. But, technically, I'm just as qualified to be here as anyone else. I'm Mormon, I have other perspectives.

Interestingly, here other questioning Mormons are faced with a choice of either accepting the new family of non-religious folks, or stay stuck in the Mormon faith. For me, my desire to understand God and Life came from my father and religion. Even though my questions go beyond that now, I still recognize that they have very functional society. And even though you could find fault with it, you don't have look hard to find fault with this "better society" that murders its unborn, promotes women cutting up their bodies for body enhancements, that objectifies humans, erases the lines of gender, etc. But, they are just as quick to reject you if you don't fall into a "vogue" class of people.

Unfortunately, though my family doesn't reject me, I've moved away, and talking isn't a big thing among us. But, I could quickly go camping, harvesting wood, riding horses, etc, if we were closer. I don't reject them, I just don't have the much to say to them.


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 Post subject: Re: If you were to write a book. . . .
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 6:20 pm 
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SPG wrote:

Oddly, this is one hypocrisy of religion that really confuses me. Even though rejecting "non-believers" is as old as religion its self, most religions promote the roles and concepts of family. It's about identity. We build our family around the idea of God, so when someone rejects that core belief, the other members feel betrayed. They might even move to protect the purity of their identity by rejecting those who have changed.

I get that all even on this board. Many people have found a new family, one based on science and facts, and if I don't embrace their science and facts, they either try to force compliance or reject me. But, technically, I'm just as qualified to be here as anyone else. I'm Mormon, I have other perspectives.

Interestingly, here other questioning Mormons are faced with a choice of either accepting the new family of non-religious folks, or stay stuck in the Mormon faith. For me, my desire to understand God and Life came from my father and religion. Even though my questions go beyond that now, I still recognize that they have very functional society. And even though you could find fault with it, you don't have look hard to find fault with this "better society" that murders its unborn, promotes women cutting up their bodies for body enhancements, that objectifies humans, erases the lines of gender, etc. But, they are just as quick to reject you if you don't fall into a "vogue" class of people.

Unfortunately, though my family doesn't reject me, I've moved away, and talking isn't a big thing among us. But, I could quickly go camping, harvesting wood, riding horses, etc, if we were closer. I don't reject them, I just don't have the much to say to them.


I don’t know what place you are describing, but it’s not Mormon Discussions. You don’t have to defend your qualifications because none are required. No one is forcing you to be either a traditional Mormon or a flaming atheist.

And no one here is trying to force compliance on you. That’s just a big chip on your shoulder. If you invite folks to challenge your ideas and then whine about being repressed when they do, it wouldn’t be surprising to see folks choosing to not engage with you. If you cite “alternative facts” or display poor reasoning, odds are pretty good that you’ll get called on it here. But that’s what you want? Right? Or is what you really want to be given a cookie and receive praise as a deep thinker?

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 Post subject: Re: If you were to write a book. . . .
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:41 pm 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
And no one here is trying to force compliance on you. That’s just a big chip on your shoulder. If you invite folks to challenge your ideas and then whine about being repressed when they do, it wouldn’t be surprising to see folks choosing to not engage with you. If you cite “alternative facts” or display poor reasoning, odds are pretty good that you’ll get called on it here. But that’s what you want? Right? Or is what you really want to be given a cookie and receive praise as a deep thinker?

LOL

You are right. I shouldn't whine. I asked to be challenged.


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 Post subject: Re: If you were to write a book. . . .
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 7:50 pm 
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Cool. I’m a little late, but welcome to MD.

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― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951


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 Post subject: Re: If you were to write a book. . . .
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:50 pm 
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spg wrote:
And even though you could find fault with it, you don't have look hard to find fault with this "better society" that murders its unborn, promotes women cutting up their bodies for body enhancements, that objectifies humans, erases the lines of gender, etc

Hmm. It's interesting that you define stepping away from religion almost entirely in terms of female-oriented behaviors, and very specific ones at that. ('promotes cutting up their bodies'?? :eek: )

As far as I can tell, you're a guy, so I wonder what's in your mind that leads you to come up with such a bizarre and single-gender-focused list of women's 'sins' that, for you at least, define what happens when men and women leave religion?


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 Post subject: Re: If you were to write a book. . . .
PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2019 10:27 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
spg wrote:
And even though you could find fault with it, you don't have look hard to find fault with this "better society" that murders its unborn, promotes women cutting up their bodies for body enhancements, that objectifies humans, erases the lines of gender, etc

Hmm. It's interesting that you define stepping away from religion almost entirely in terms of female-oriented behaviors, and very specific ones at that. ('promotes cutting up their bodies'?? :eek: )

As far as I can tell, you're a guy, so I wonder what's in your mind that leads you to come up with such a bizarre and single-gender-focused list of women's 'sins' that, for you at least, define what happens when men and women leave religion?


Funny, I didn't see these as sins of women, but done against women. That they need to go through such extreme measures to find places are honor in our society bugs me. But, I admit I don't understand everything.


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 Post subject: Re: If you were to write a book. . . .
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 5:44 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
spg wrote:
And even though you could find fault with it, you don't have look hard to find fault with this "better society" that murders its unborn, promotes women cutting up their bodies for body enhancements, that objectifies humans, erases the lines of gender, etc

Hmm. It's interesting that you define stepping away from religion almost entirely in terms of female-oriented behaviors, and very specific ones at that. ('promotes cutting up their bodies'?? :eek: )

As far as I can tell, you're a guy, so I wonder what's in your mind that leads you to come up with such a bizarre and single-gender-focused list of women's 'sins' that, for you at least, define what happens when men and women leave religion?

Quote:
Funny, I didn't see these as sins of women, but done against women. That they need to go through such extreme measures to find places are honor in our society bugs me. But, I admit I don't understand everything.

How you can define a person exercising a right to choose an abortion as something being done "against women" is beyond me, but in any case my basic objection remains. (Although I would add that I disagree vehemently with your implication that women are 'honored' in religion. That is not true at all.)

But back to my original point, whether you define it a sin or an imposition, everything on your list of the negatives of leaving religion involves women and women's bodies. Why?


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 Post subject: Re: If you were to write a book. . . .
PostPosted: Sat Apr 06, 2019 7:18 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:

But back to my original point, whether you define it a sin or an imposition, everything on your list of the negatives of leaving religion involves women and women's bodies. Why?


Good catch. Interesting. Maybe it has to do with growing up in a Mormon polygamist household, which traditionally treat women as property and items to be collected?

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 Post subject: Re: If you were to write a book. . . .
PostPosted: Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:38 am 
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Lemmie wrote:
Lemmie wrote:
As far as I can tell, you're a guy, so I wonder what's in your mind that leads you to come up with such a bizarre and single-gender-focused list of women's 'sins' that, for you at least, define what happens when men and women leave religion?

Quote:
Funny, I didn't see these as sins of women, but done against women. That they need to go through such extreme measures to find places are honor in our society bugs me. But, I admit I don't understand everything.

How you can define a person exercising a right to choose an abortion as something being done "against women" is beyond me, but in any case my basic objection remains. (Although I would add that I disagree vehemently with your implication that women are 'honored' in religion. That is not true at all.)

But back to my original point, whether you define it a sin or an imposition, everything on your list of the negatives of leaving religion involves women and women's bodies. Why?


cwald wrote:
Good catch. Interesting. Maybe it has to do with growing up in a Mormon polygamist household, which traditionally treat women as property and items to be collected?


Maybe my wording isn't good on this, but it's sort of liking mentioning the damage to the oceans while talking about climate change. It all sort of flows towards the oceans.

I'm not against our American culture, but there are things that seems like problems to me. Like the objectification of women, (and men for that matter) in magazines covers, TV, music. I am pro-choice, because I think choice is critical, and I'm going to limit my response to this point.

When a group of conscious people believe killing their unborn is perfectly viable option to dealing with their problem, culture has really taken a ____. Not that I blame women or men specifically for this, it's a joint condition. I get that women need this "right" to protect their lives in varies situations. But America is killing 500K-1M unborn a year. It's safer to kill the unborn than to bring them into our lives. We are doing something wrong.

As for the polygamy comment, cwald, ____ you. If I had been born of a whore, it doesn't qualify you to make comments about my upbringing like that. I thought you had more class then that.


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 Post subject: Re: If you were to write a book. . . .
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:09 am 
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Lemmie wrote:
As far as I can tell, you're a guy, so I wonder what's in your mind that leads you to come up with such a bizarre and single-gender-focused list of women's 'sins' that, for you at least, define what happens when men and women leave religion?

spg wrote:
Funny, I didn't see these as sins of women, but done against women. That they need to go through such extreme measures to find places are honor in our society bugs me. But, I admit I don't understand everything.
lemmie wrote:
How you can define a person exercising a right to choose an abortion as something being done "against women" is beyond me, but in any case my basic objection remains. (Although I would add that I disagree vehemently with your implication that women are 'honored' in religion. That is not true at all.)

But back to my original point, whether you define it a sin or an imposition, everything on your list of the negatives of leaving religion involves women and women's bodies. Why?


spg wrote:
Maybe my wording isn't good on this, but it's sort of liking mentioning the damage to the oceans while talking about climate change. It all sort of flows towards the oceans...

So your answer to why everything on your list of the negatives of leaving religion involves women and women's bodies, is that it is obvious [to you] that everything on the list of the negatives of leaving religion does involve women and women's bodies. Right. :rolleyes:


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 Post subject: Re: If you were to write a book. . . .
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 9:34 am 
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Lemmie wrote:
Lemmie wrote:
As far as I can tell, you're a guy, so I wonder what's in your mind that leads you to come up with such a bizarre and single-gender-focused list of women's 'sins' that, for you at least, define what happens when men and women leave religion?

spg wrote:
Funny, I didn't see these as sins of women, but done against women. That they need to go through such extreme measures to find places are honor in our society bugs me. But, I admit I don't understand everything.
lemmie wrote:
How you can define a person exercising a right to choose an abortion as something being done "against women" is beyond me, but in any case my basic objection remains. (Although I would add that I disagree vehemently with your implication that women are 'honored' in religion. That is not true at all.)

But back to my original point, whether you define it a sin or an imposition, everything on your list of the negatives of leaving religion involves women and women's bodies. Why?


spg wrote:
Maybe my wording isn't good on this, but it's sort of liking mentioning the damage to the oceans while talking about climate change. It all sort of flows towards the oceans...

So your answer to why everything on your list of the negatives of leaving religion involves women and women's bodies, is that it is obvious [to you] that everything on the list of the negatives of leaving religion does involve women and women's bodies. Right. :rolleyes:


This might surprise you, but we were all females for a little while. You and I, started this life female, but were marked and called to be something a little different. Males.

In a major sense, humanity is female in nature, perhaps our ideals are more masculine. The condition of a culture, in many ways, is reflected in the females. This isn't some twisted hate or blame, but my observations. Right now, as I see it, some males avoided marriage and no one cared. But when masses of the female population are avoiding marriage, it should tell us something. It's not against them, but culture needs family, in my opinion. I think we are pretty confused on a lot of points.


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 Post subject: Re: If you were to write a book. . . .
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:14 am 
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Quote:
This might surprise you, but we were all females for a little while. You and I, started this life female, but were marked and called to be something a little different. Males.
:eek: You and I were "marked and called" to be male? I better call my husband right now. He needs to know this.
spg wrote:
In a major sense, humanity is female in nature, perhaps our ideals are more masculine.
oh really. Ideals are masculine. :rolleyes: what do you even say to ____ like that.
Quote:
The condition of a culture, in many ways, is reflected in the females. This isn't some twisted hate or blame, but my observations. Right now, as I see it, some males avoided marriage and no one cared. But when masses of the female population are avoiding marriage, it should tell us something. It's not against them, but culture needs family, in my opinion. I think we are pretty confused on a lot of points.

I think you are definitely, definitely confused. Why you think the negatives of leaving religion revolve around women, their bodies, and their actions is clear, however. The opinions you've expressed here about men and women are despicable.


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 Post subject: Re: If you were to write a book. . . .
PostPosted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 11:27 am 
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Lemmie wrote:
:eek: You and I were "marked and called" to be male? I better call my husband right now. He needs to know this.

::sigh:: ____!! Caught misgendering someone, again.
Lemmie wrote:
oh really. Ideals are masculine. :rolleyes: what do you even say to ____ like that.


I have my reasons for this and I'm quite confident that you don't want to hear them.
Lemmie wrote:
I think you are definitely, definitely confused. Why you think the negatives of leaving religion revolve around women, their bodies, and their actions is clear, however. The opinions you've expressed here about men and women are despicable.

In spite of how I seem to be coming across, or what you seem to think, it's not all about you, or women. That you think my opinions are despicable, I'm OK with. In my head, they make sense.


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 Post subject: Re: If you were to write a book. . . .
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 1:03 am 
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SPG wrote:

As for the polygamy comment, cwald, ____ you. If I had been born of a whore, it doesn't qualify you to make comments about my upbringing like that. I thought you had more class then that.


What? This reaction surprised me. Not sure why you would react like this. Wasn't meant to be personal.

It's a Mormon themed board in Telestial area with very little moderation...why would you think polygamy is off limits?

I don't get it. Why is this such a trigger for you? You want to start threads down here and discuss Mormonism but your own background in Mormonism is off limits?

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 Post subject: Re: If you were to write a book. . . .
PostPosted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:26 am 
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SPG wrote:
::sigh:: ____!! Caught misgendering someone, again.


:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: If you were to write a book. . . .
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:03 pm 
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cwald wrote:
SPG wrote:

As for the polygamy comment, cwald, ____ you. If I had been born of a whore, it doesn't qualify you to make comments about my upbringing like that. I thought you had more class then that.


What? This reaction surprised me. Not sure why you would react like this. Wasn't meant to be personal.

It's a Mormon themed board in Telestial area with very little moderation...why would you think polygamy is off limits?

I don't get it. Why is this such a trigger for you? You want to start threads down here and discuss Mormonism but your own background in Mormonism is off limits?


There is nothing wrong with the subject of polygamy. I'm usually pretty good at them, maybe even well informed. Implying that I'm blaming the sins of culture on women, (which was enough BS in the first place) but then saying my messed up views are because of being raised in polygamy, with ideals of owning and controlling was uncalled for.

IF you want to talk polygamy, don't go all passive aggressive on me with implying that reasons I'm messed up is because of my upbringing. I mean, seriously, that sort thing can really bring out the hostilities in people.

I mean, if we are going to start talking about each other mothers, I have a few comments that could probably piss you off.


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 Post subject: Re: If you were to write a book. . . .
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:30 pm 
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cwald wrote:
SPG wrote:

As for the polygamy comment, cwald, ____ you. If I had been born of a whore, it doesn't qualify you to make comments about my upbringing like that. I thought you had more class then that.


What? This reaction surprised me. Not sure why you would react like this. Wasn't meant to be personal.

It's a Mormon themed board in Telestial area with very little moderation...why would you think polygamy is off limits?

I don't get it. Why is this such a trigger for you? You want to start threads down here and discuss Mormonism but your own background in Mormonism is off limits?

spg wrote:
There is nothing wrong with the subject of polygamy. I'm usually pretty good at them, maybe even well informed. Implying that I'm blaming the sins of culture on women, (which was enough BS in the first place) but then saying my messed up views are because of being raised in polygamy, with ideals of owning and controlling was uncalled for.

IF you want to talk polygamy, don't go all passive aggressive on me with implying that reasons I'm messed up is because of my upbringing. I mean, seriously, that sort thing can really bring out the hostilities in people.

I mean, if we are going to start talking about each other mothers, I have a few comments that could probably piss you off.


If you want to talk about what can bring out hostilities or what is uncalled for in discussing your BS, let's start with your comments about women, women's bodies, how you and I were "marked and called to be" male, how "our ideals are more masculine" but the culture of a world is "reflected in the females," etc., etc. Etc. Since we are here in Telestial, I am free to fully express my opinion, which is that you are a misogynistic pig.

I could care less whether polygamous parents taught you that, but cwald is correct that you can't now act insulted when the subject is brought up. In the end, your bias is the mud and slime you as an adult choose to wallow in.


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 Post subject: Re: If you were to write a book. . . .
PostPosted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:00 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
If you want to talk about what can bring out hostilities or what is uncalled for in discussing your BS, let's start with your comments about women, women's bodies, how you and I were "marked and called to be" male, how "our ideals are more masculine" but the culture of a world is "reflected in the females," etc., etc. Etc. Since we are here in Telestial, I am free to fully express my opinion, which is that you are a misogynistic pig.

I could care less whether polygamous parents taught you that, but cwald is correct that you can't now act insulted when the subject is brought up. In the end, your bias is the mud and slime you as an adult choose to wallow in.

First of all, obviously, either your misrepresented yourself, or I misgendered you, but apparently you were not called to be male. By this, I am referring to the biological processes which all fetuses start out as female in the womb. Some are marked, with the X chromosome and at a point, when introduced to certain hormones, transform to male. I know the biology teacher sort of shirted around this as actually female fetuses turning male, but basically, that is what it is. Nature marks some of us as male, but not to actually different from the female as we started out as.

Now, I'm completely confused about how your thoughts on my position on things like abortion and plastic surgery as being some sort of gross abomination of thought. I mean, I was like, "women actually slice and dice themselves up to feel beautiful in our culture." This was met with "how dare you" sort of comments. You might think you are different then males in someways that allows you to hate and blame them, but we are just a part of you. We are in this together.

But, about the slice and dice thing. I see that as males in our culture being disloyal, chasing the shortest shirt, or the newest intern. If males were more loyal, willing to be decent and not stray, maybe women wouldn't feel the need to be so beautiful, or insecure about what nature gave them. You can call me a "misogynist pig, or even throw racist in there" but I'm just sharing what I see. I don't see myself as better, or lord over, or hateful, or whatever. I have dedicated my life to serving a woman, and our daughter, because I see that as part of my job as a male. Not as a slave, (though there are days it feels like that) but as someone that provides for, and protects my home, and gives the women folk someone to blame for ____.

But just so you and I are clear, I don't think I am bias in this matter. I might see it differently, but I think I give women a fair amount of . . . . fairness.

And, I wasn't insulted about polygamy being brought up. I was insulted that he implied my "messed up views" were because of my upbringing. . . . . I had to actually delete a couple of clever insults about your upbringing, because, I'm just not that hateful. But just so you know, I don't find you perfect, and I could find ways to blame your parents.


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 Post subject: Re: If you were to write a book. . . .
PostPosted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:17 am 
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First of all, obviously, either your misrepresented yourself, or I misgendered you, but apparently you were not called to be male.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Either I 'misrepresented myself'??? Omg. Welcome to the board. Read a little before serving up your stupidity so obviously.

Quote:
Now, I'm completely confused about how your thoughts on my position on things like abortion and plastic surgery as being some sort of gross abomination of thought. I mean, I was like, "women actually slice and dice themselves up to feel beautiful in our culture." This was met with "how dare you" sort of comments.

Wrong. Although I understand your confusion. How else could you rewrite the story?
Quote:
You can call me a "misogynist pig, or even throw racist in there"

No, I didn't throw racist in there. Just misogynistic.
Quote:
. . I had to actually delete a couple of clever insults about your upbringing, because, I'm just not that hateful. But just so you know, I don't find you perfect, and I could find ways to blame your parents.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Let's add asshole to misogynist. And I'm giving you credit for those completely. No need to be silly about parents.

Since you mentioned you are "someone that provides for [a woman], and protects my home, and gives the women folk someone to blame for ____," I thought I would quote some of your ____:
spg wrote:
This might surprise you, but we were all females for a little while. You and I, started this life female, but were marked and called to be something a little different. Males.

In a major sense, humanity is female in nature, perhaps our ideals are more masculine. The condition of a culture, in many ways, is reflected in the females. This isn't some twisted hate or blame, but my observations. Right now, as I see it, some males avoided marriage and no one cared. But when masses of the female population are avoiding marriage, it should tell us something. It's not against them, but culture needs family, in my opinion. I think we are pretty confused on a lot of points.


Here's a thought. While posting here, just think of women and men as people, equally. That way when a woman responds to a post, you won't do something so utterly gauche as telling her that in doing so, she 'misrepresented' herself as male. Or do you really think only men post here because the women are at home being provided for?


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