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 Post subject: Re: definitions of faith
PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 10:54 pm 
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Good evening Quasimoto

Infinity can be considered one reality then I agree. But in my book Infinity equals infinite and eternal. For example anything that has a shape or form is not infinite. Even as simple as matter and antimatter are not in their true form. When you put matter and antimatter back together they equal 0. Reality is perspective. This is an old saying but I believe to be true. There are as many realities as there are perspectives. Something that might be actually happening might mean two completely different things if more than one person or being is watching.

For example if a fish and a human somehow fall off a boat into the water the reality is it means death for one of them and life for the other one.

I believe that our world is actually made up of the perspectives of Greater beings. What we consider reality might be how they see something. We are connected do a universal consciousness. We can sometimes hear voices in our heads are not our own. Our world could be that we see because we are connected to some greater being. But I daresay that how fish see the world how humans see the world are very different and yet both true.


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 Post subject: Re: definitions of faith
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 9:38 am 
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Faith is the excuse people give when they believe in something and don't have a good reason. - Matt Dillahunty


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 Post subject: Re: definitions of faith
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:38 am 
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wtfluff wrote:
Faith is the excuse people give when they believe in something and don't have a good reason. - Matt Dillahunty
Doesn't that apply to everyone though? Can you prove that you won't be run over today or that a bird won't poop on your head?
"All have faith but not all are conscious of having faith."


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 Post subject: Re: definitions of faith
PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 10:43 am 
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SPG wrote:
Even though some methods of faith can apply to a wide group of people faith is still an individual effort. Only you can find the method that is right for you. There are countless methods that are all valid in the pursuit of happiness. One is better than another only because of the individual that it applies to. There is a song lyric that asks "if you are so happy why are you so damn sad?"

There are people that are only be happy when they're miserable. I don't know if it is a permanent thing but the only way they can deal with life as if they're being punished. But if it gets them what they want who am I to judge?
"UBU, I'll be me."
I'm gradually learning to trust people I care about to handle their own problems. I'd be there if they need me, but if they want to change, they'll do it - it's not up to me. Still, I hate seeing people miserable - I've been depressed, suicidal - not fun. I can see what they could do to help themselves so clearly, but I imagine, again, if they really want something else, they'll go for it. Only when they begin hurting me, will I say something or just maintain boundaries.


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 Post subject: Re: definitions of faith
PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:37 am 
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wtfluff wrote:
Faith is the excuse people give when they believe in something and don't have a good reason. - Matt Dillahunty


This is weak. You cannot believe something if you don't. You can pretend to believe something, but you would only pretend if you believed that it was important to pretend.

Say your mate wanted a beer, but you already drank their last beer. Now you know there are no beers in the fridge, but you "pretend" believe that there, so you get up and feign surprise that there are no beers in the fridge.

If you were alone, you wouldn't have even looked.

We lie, but only if we have a good reason. (Maybe beer wasn't a good one.)

But faith is energy you have to try something you are not sure about. Like get up and go to work. You are not 100% sure there is a job waiting for you. The building could have burned down, you could have been fired, the bridge could have been wiped out, etc. Faith is a mixture of want, hope, trust, and planning. We get up because we have faith in our job to get money, to feed our families.

We have faith in our church because we want salvation, (a curious feature of humanity) and we feel like we getting it when we go to church. Until we stop feeling it and we stop going.

Faith is energy to live. Belief is a part of faith, but not faith itself. Without faith, we just roll over and die.


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 Post subject: Re: definitions of faith
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:14 am 
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Amore wrote:
wtfluff wrote:
Faith is the excuse people give when they believe in something and don't have a good reason. - Matt Dillahunty
Doesn't that apply to everyone though? Can you prove that you won't be run over today or that a bird won't poop on your head?
"All have faith but not all are conscious of having faith."

Of course it applies to everyone...

Edit: What does faith have to do with "proving" that you won't be run over, or pooped on?


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 Post subject: Re: definitions of faith
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:21 am 
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SPG wrote:
wtfluff wrote:
Faith is the excuse people give when they believe in something and don't have a good reason. - Matt Dillahunty
This is weak. You cannot believe something if you don't.

Seriously SPG? The Dillahunty statement doesn't say "You can't believe if you don't believe."




SPG wrote:
You can pretend to believe something, but you would only pretend if you believed that it was important to pretend.

You can only pretend to believe if you believe it's important to pretend?

What does that even mean?

Pretend = Blind (religious) faith?



SPG wrote:
Say your mate wanted a beer, but you already drank their last beer. Now you know there are no beers in the fridge, but you "pretend" believe that there, so you get up and feign surprise that there are no beers in the fridge.

If you were alone, you wouldn't have even looked.

We lie, but only if we have a good reason. (Maybe beer wasn't a good one.)

What does knowing that there is no beer in the fridge, and then lying about it have to do with blind (religious) faith?




SPG wrote:
But faith is energy you have to try something you are not sure about. Like get up and go to work. You are not 100% sure there is a job waiting for you. The building could have burned down, you could have been fired, the bridge could have been wiped out, etc. Faith is a mixture of want, hope, trust, and planning. We get up because we have faith in our job to get money, to feed our families.

EVERYTHING you mention in this paragraph is based on some sort of evidence. You get up and go to work, because you've probably gone to work most every day of your life, and there was a job for you to do: Evidence. Along with every other thing in that paragraph.

Just like: "I don't know that the sun rise tomorrow." Well, the sun has risen every damn day of your life hasn't it? That's pretty good evidence that it will rise tomorrow.

"Faith" in your job, a building or bridge existing, a paycheck, or that the sun will rise tomorrow is based on evidence (your own personal experience.) NOT the same as blind (religious) faith.




SPG wrote:
We have faith in our church because we want salvation, (a curious feature of humanity) and we feel like we getting it when we go to church. Until we stop feeling it and we stop going.

Or... We stop believing and / or attending our church when we find out our "church" has based it's entire existence on lies and half truths (evidence that the church is not what it claims to be.)

Or... We stop relying on "feelings" as evidence to "prove" anything.

Why should I keep believing in a dishonest organization, that promises me salvation, when there's plenty of evidence that the organization can't actually follow through with "salvation"? Oh yeah; that's where blind (religious) faith comes in. No thanks.




SPG wrote:
Faith is energy to live. Belief is a part of faith, but not faith itself. Without faith, we just roll over and die.

If you need "faith" to live, more power to you. Personally, I'd call that hope, which I don't equate with blind (religious) faith.




Yeah, I know that was a complete waste of time, but whatever.

Cue long-winded, nebulous reply from SPG...

(Edit: too many extra words...)


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 Post subject: Re: definitions of faith
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:56 pm 
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wtfluff wrote:
Amore wrote:
Doesn't that apply to everyone though? Can you prove that you won't be run over today or that a bird won't poop on your head?
"All have faith but not all are conscious of having faith."

Of course it applies to everyone...

Edit: What does faith have to do with "proving" that you won't be run over, or pooped on?

Those are just examples of the countless things that you have faith in (unknowingly it seems). You have faith that things will go as you expect them to... only when they don't go that way, does it piss you off and if you're honest you have to admit that it was always a possibility - only that you had been maintaining faith according to your expectations.

Again, "All have faith but not all are conscious of having faith."


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 Post subject: Re: definitions of faith
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:56 pm 
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I think it is a mistake for people of faith to water down to the concept of faith to mean nothing more than "expected based on past experience." If faith in God is equivalent to expecting my keys to be where I last left them, then why in the world should faith be worthy of respect or special treatment of any kind? I think that theists who try to turn the most mundane of expectations don't understand the logical implication of their argument: taking their argument seriously strips away any rationale for giving religion special legal protection under the US constitution or even protection from discrimination.

I'll be happy to equate my belief that when I fart it will smell bad with Amore's faith in her God, as long as she agrees that religion deserves the same degree of protection as passing gas.

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 Post subject: Re: definitions of faith
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:45 am 
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Amore wrote:
wtfluff wrote:
Of course it applies to everyone...

Edit: What does faith have to do with "proving" that you won't be run over, or pooped on?

Those are just examples of the countless things that you have faith in (unknowingly it seems). You have faith that things will go as you expect them to... only when they don't go that way, does it piss you off and if you're honest you have to admit that it was always a possibility - only that you had been maintaining faith according to your expectations.

Again, "All have faith but not all are conscious of having faith."

Ah yes, the same argument as SPG...

I've spent thousands of days on this earth and haven't been hit by a car, but i HAVE TO have "faith" that I'm not going to be hit by a car today, or what's the use in even getting out of bed? "Faith" based on a lifetime of experience is NOT the same as blind (religious) faith.

Wait, didn't someone put it better than I did? Oh yeah:
Res Ipsa wrote:
I think it is a mistake for people of faith to water down to the concept of faith to mean nothing more than "expected based on past experience." If faith in God is equivalent to expecting my keys to be where I last left them, then why in the world should faith be worthy of respect or special treatment of any kind? I think that theists who try to turn the most mundane of expectations don't understand the logical implication of their argument: taking their argument seriously strips away any rationale for giving religion special legal protection under the US constitution or even protection from discrimination.

I'll be happy to equate my belief that when I fart it will smell bad with Amore's faith in her God, as long as she agrees that religion deserves the same degree of protection as passing gas.


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 Post subject: Re: definitions of faith
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:43 pm 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
I think it is a mistake for people of faith to water down to the concept of faith to mean nothing more than "expected based on past experience." If faith in God is equivalent to expecting my keys to be where I last left them, then why in the world should faith be worthy of respect or special treatment of any kind? I think that theists who try to turn the most mundane of expectations don't understand the logical implication of their argument: taking their argument seriously strips away any rationale for giving religion special legal protection under the US constitution or even protection from discrimination.


Exactly.

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 Post subject: Re: definitions of faith
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:06 pm 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
I think it is a mistake for people of faith to water down to the concept of faith to mean nothing more than "expected based on past experience." If faith in God is equivalent to expecting my keys to be where I last left them, then why in the world should faith be worthy of respect or special treatment of any kind? I think that theists who try to turn the most mundane of expectations don't understand the logical implication of their argument: taking their argument seriously strips away any rationale for giving religion special legal protection under the US constitution or even protection from discrimination.

I'll be happy to equate my belief that when I fart it will smell bad with Amore's faith in her God, as long as she agrees that religion deserves the same degree of protection as passing gas.

First off based on my beliefs, I'm not a "Theist." I do not blindly accept scripture - but I also don't toss out all of philosophy or science or religion just because some of it I don't agree with.

It is not just "mundane expectations" like where you put your keys - that you have faith in. It's also about your life - you assume that you will keep living every day - that you won't be shot in the head or ran over and paralyzed. You assume so much on faith - but I can't list it all. Much of it is emotional - and I'm not inside your mind to point out exactly what you have faith in to make you feel or not feel a certain way - but as a human being you do have emotions - which are faith-based interpretations of your subjective (faith-based) thoughts.

The issue is not whether you have faith or not - but if your faith is applied in the most ideal ways.


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 Post subject: Re: definitions of faith
PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:33 pm 
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Amore wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:
I think it is a mistake for people of faith to water down to the concept of faith to mean nothing more than "expected based on past experience." If faith in God is equivalent to expecting my keys to be where I last left them, then why in the world should faith be worthy of respect or special treatment of any kind? I think that theists who try to turn the most mundane of expectations don't understand the logical implication of their argument: taking their argument seriously strips away any rationale for giving religion special legal protection under the US constitution or even protection from discrimination.

I'll be happy to equate my belief that when I fart it will smell bad with Amore's faith in her God, as long as she agrees that religion deserves the same degree of protection as passing gas.

First off based on my beliefs, I'm not a "Theist." I do not blindly accept scripture - but I also don't toss out all of philosophy or science or religion just because some of it I don't agree with.

It is not just "mundane expectations" like where you put your keys - that you have faith in. It's also about your life - you assume that you will keep living every day - that you won't be shot in the head or ran over and paralyzed. You assume so much on faith - but I can't list it all. Much of it is emotional - and I'm not inside your mind to point out exactly what you have faith in to make you feel or not feel a certain way - but as a human being you do have emotions - which are faith-based interpretations of your subjective (faith-based) thoughts.

The issue is not whether you have faith or not - but if your faith is applied in the most ideal ways.


I'm sorry about the use of "theist." By using that term, I did not intend to imply that you follow scripture blindly. I can tell that you don't from your posting here. I used the term in its broadest sense -- believer in a deity of some flavor. I'm happy to use whatever term you use to describe your stance toward the existence of a god. I don't think I can use "person of faith," because, under your definition of faith, we are all people of faith. Would "believer" be okay?

I think I mostly understand your argument. I have two reactions. The first is that I think there is a meaningful distinction between inferring conclusions based on evidence (if I drop this pencil, it will fall to the floor) and a belief in the existence of a supernatural being of some kind that takes an interest in humans. And I think that distinction is meaningful enough to have a distinct word -- "faith" -- that applies to the latter and not the former. Others have argued that position in this thread, and I'm not sure I have anything new to add.

More important, to me, is the consequences of an argument that religious belief is no different than the sort of "mundane expectations" we've mentioned. In the U.S., religious belief receives special constitutional and legal protections that other beliefs do not. My belief that I won't be shot in the head today receives no special treatment. Your belief in a deity does. If that distinction has some justification, it is that there is some distinction between your belief in a deity and mine in not getting shot. Or any other non-religious belief. When a believer argues that their religious belief is no different than any other belief that anyone has, I think that undermines the notion that religious belief is deserving of any special treatment.

Now, it may be that your answer to my argument is related to your last sentence -- that you can justify special treatment of religion because it involves applying faith in "ideal ways." But isn't that just another way of saying that religious belief is different than other belief? And, if so, why not take the position that faith is, indeed, something different -- something different that is worth special protection?

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― Hannah Arendt, The Origins of Totalitarianism, 1951


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 Post subject: Re: definitions of faith
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 9:25 am 
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ResIspa,
I appreciate your ability to reason without ad hominem attack logical fallacy - a rarity around here.

It would be mislabeling me to group me along with religious people. Although I respect certain aspects of many faiths and of Agnosticism, I do not subscribe nor identify myself with any of those groups, when it comes to my beliefs. Please, resist the temptation to label me anything.

If I am a believer, so are you - we all believe things that are not proven. IE: You may believe that one of your neighbors looking at you with a frown, means that they think you are an evil apostate and you feel angry but beneath that, hurt - so you ignore him when he tries to say hi. Or, a girl may come up to you, smile and give you a hug and you may think she likes you and may wonder how it would be to be with her, but she's that way with everyone. It could be you're tired, been eating junk food & not exercising & feel really crappy - and assume that life sucks because you feel so sucky. Or it could be that you assume that now that you're out of the church, you must disagree with everything - because it's "all or nothing." I don't know if these are thoughts and emotions that you've had. What matters is that you do think and feel about things - and you do jump to conclusions at times - in those interpretations - like all of us do. It has nothing to do with religion or a deity. It's about your specific psych-ology - your belief system that you've accumulated since being born.

Many people engage in cognitive distortions/logical fallacies - so they have faith in some screwed up way of interpreting things which makes them pissed or hurt at others (but really usually with themselves). Religion - and many other herd-mentalities teach cognitive distortions, like polarized (bi-polar) thinking - "you're either on the Lord's side or you're not." Often, even after leaving the cult, many struggle with the herd-mentality and cognitive distortions - just maybe applied to different ideologies. Having faith that life sucks and there's nothing you can do about it is not as productive and healthy as - having faith that although life may have obstacles, you have the ability to handle them and be better for it. See what I mean now? It's not a question of having faith/belief - but how those beliefs help or harm you and others.


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 Post subject: Re: definitions of faith
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 6:02 pm 
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On the ideas about the infinite, I find James Lindsay "God Doesn't, We Do" is a good cure for our mistaken thinking. A follow up of his book "Dot, Dot, Dot - Infinity Plus God Equals Folly" is a solid tonic to our erroneous thinking.

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 Post subject: Re: definitions of faith
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 4:31 pm 
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SPG noted:
Quote:
Without faith, we just roll over and die.


Everyone dies anyway. Faith is irrelevant to that. I know many atheists who are living the good and meaningful life HERE... NOW, letting heaven (if there is such a place) wait. We are, after all, alive here and now on this earth, yes? This is what matters, not some pie in the sky.

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"Science believes in accountability here and now. Religion believes in it in the hereafter." - Maksutov


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 Post subject: Re: definitions of faith
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2016 4:36 pm 
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Amore noted:
Quote:
First off based on my beliefs, I'm not a "Theist." I do not blindly accept scripture - but I also don't toss out all of philosophy or science or religion just because some of it I don't agree with.



Just so it's clear, one should never believe anything just because one agrees with it or not, unless the preponderance of evidence demonstrates that something is valid, based on all that we know right now about how the world and universe works. Being agreeable or disagreeable is irrelevant to what is real. It's why science works so well.

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 Post subject: Re: definitions of faith
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 5:28 pm 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
Everyone dies anyway. Faith is irrelevant to that. I know many atheists who are living the good and meaningful life HERE... NOW, letting heaven (if there is such a place) wait. We are, after all, alive here and now on this earth, yes? This is what matters, not some pie in the sky...
"All have faith but not all are conscious of having faith."

Quote:
Just so it's clear, one should never believe anything just because one agrees with it or not, unless the preponderance of evidence demonstrates that something is valid, based on all that we know right now about how the world and universe works. Being agreeable or disagreeable is irrelevant to what is real. It's why science works so well.
Fair advise, thank you. It is something good to keep in mind, especially upon recovering from cult mentality. I believe that a good balance involves both healthy (well applied) doubt and faith.


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