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 Post subject: Question about the Temple pre-1990
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 2:10 am 
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I'm posting this here because I understand that Temple content is banned in the Terrestrial forum.

My question is this: Where did the phrase Pay Lay Ale come from?

The original form was apparently something like "pale ale ale" or "pale hale hale". http://www.utlm.org/newsletters/no76.htm

I've found a few explanations online, none of which seem to check out:

-- It comes from "pe le el", "mouth to God" in Hebrew. This is possible, as JSJr knew Hebrew, but it feels a bit too neat.
-- It means "marvellous Lucifer". This is a fundamentalist EV theory which is very unlikely to be true.
-- It comes from the magical term "Pe Le" which was inscribed on a ring by the 16th century occultist John Dee. I can't see how JSJr can possibly have come by this knowlede. It also doesn't account for the "Ale" bit.

Did JSJr get it from the Freemasons? Did he just make it up?


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 Post subject: Re: Question about the Temple pre-1990
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:43 am 
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Agrippa mentions in Book III Cap.11 of The Occult Philosophy, “that place in Judges” where the word pele or peli is used in the sentence: “Nomine meum quod est (Peh Lamed Aleph)”; meaning, “My name, which is [Peh-Lamed-Aleph]”. All I found in Dowry-Raines was the word mirabile (miraculous) where Agrippa said PELE should be. Due to this, I thought for a little while that it might just be the English “Aleph” spelled out in reverse—you know—the way Hebrew is normally written, right to left.


http://mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?p=896708#p896708

You might find this thread useful.

On the change to the "Adamic" phrase: First, we have no idea what kind of transformations happened between Nauvoo and the early 20th century. As far as I know, no one wrote down the ritual until Brigham Young dictated to Nuttall. I think it is most probable that the phrase started out as Hebrew and was then distorted by some chain of oral transmission. It is also necessary to interrogate the accuracy of the two expositors' aural memories. I don't know the UTLM's source material in the Tribune, so I can't say.

In any case, I believe that the Hebrew scholars who advised the Mormon leaders were on to something, but that their simple, mundane solution did not go far enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about the Temple pre-1990
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 8:51 am 
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Kishkumen wrote:
You might find this thread useful.


Thanks. I'm currently leaning towards canpakes' theory that it's kabbalistically related to Emma Peel.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about the Temple pre-1990
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 9:30 am 
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Johannes wrote:
Kishkumen wrote:
You might find this thread useful.


Thanks. I'm currently leaning towards canpakes' theory that it's kabbalistically related to Emma Peel.


Lol.

I'm going to go with Kish and say that oral transformation/transcription between Nauvoo and Salt Lake City has to be considered, though his gloss on the ring is very intriguing.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about the Temple pre-1990
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 11:00 am 
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Johannes wrote:
Thanks. I'm currently leaning towards canpakes' theory that it's kabbalistically related to Emma Peel.


We certainly should bring Emma into this. It would be criminal not to!

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 Post subject: Re: Question about the Temple pre-1990
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 11:17 am 
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Blix wrote:
...his gloss on the ring is very intriguing.


I like the reading of the ring that Frater Sharash offers:

Quote:
One very interesting thing I’ve noted on the ring is the center design. It is extremely curious that Dee, in the paragraph on the ring says to use a “thing like a V” instead of just “V” in contrast to the very specific “and an L”. But if one notes the way the circle cuts through the V and L; turning the design upside down, the “thing like a V” becomes a thing very much like an “A.” And most have probably already put two and two together and noted that this spells “AL,” a very well known name of God. Again, it is my feeling that this should probably be in Hebrew also.


Image

This would lead to a reading of the ring as "Pe Al Le," or "Pe Le Al. One can easily imagine the former morphing into the first option reported in the UTLM piece.

See http://www.scarletwoman.org/scarletletter/v6n1/v6n1_play.html

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 Post subject: Re: Question about the Temple pre-1990
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 11:27 am 
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That is interesting.

What would be the transmission route to JSJr? Did Dee's sigil get taken up in Masonic circles, for example?


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 Post subject: Re: Question about the Temple pre-1990
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 12:07 pm 
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Johannes wrote:
That is interesting.

What would be the transmission route to JSJr? Did Dee's sigil get taken up in Masonic circles, for example?


I wish I knew. Unfortunately, I do not. One would have to dig into the circulation of Dee's works after his death. Ashmole got his library. Dee's works eventually found their way to the Bodleian.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about the Temple pre-1990
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2016 5:41 pm 
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Thanks for this OP and the interesting interaction thereafter. I don't often wander down to this forum because it gets, well, just weird. But posts like this make it worth the effort of checking.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about the Temple pre-1990
PostPosted: Sun Jun 19, 2016 2:21 pm 
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Chuck Finley wrote:
Thanks for this OP and the interesting interaction thereafter. I don't often wander down to this forum because it gets, well, just weird. But posts like this make it worth the effort of checking.


I, too, am glad Johannes pursued this issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about the Temple pre-1990
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2016 1:25 am 
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http://www.redbubble.com/people/barefoo ... ?p=t-shirt

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 Post subject: Re: Question about the Temple pre-1990
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:08 am 
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Polygamy-Porter wrote:
http://www.redbubble.com/people/barefootmelanie/works/15810533-pay-lay-ale?p=t-shirt

Image

:lol: :lol: :lol:
My wife is watching Warcraft this morning and while feeding the dog I overheard a part of the script where somebody asks, "Have you a name?" and instantly my mind thought "I have" followed by "Will you give it to me?"
It's been literally decades since I wasted time going to a temple. There's no brainwashing going on in the LDS church folks. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Question about the Temple pre-1990
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:13 am 
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I always imagined "Pele Ale" is some kind of Hawaiian alcoholic beverage. :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Question about the Temple pre-1990
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 10:43 am 
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deacon blues wrote:
I always imagined "Pele Ale" is some kind of Hawaiian alcoholic beverage. :wink:


Maybe beer is the answer? I know one of the last times I went to the temple included a detour to the local bar afterward for some real pay lay ale. Those sessions grew longer and longer each time I went and the desire for light and knowledge from true refreshment was just too much to resist. :biggrin:


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 Post subject: Re: Question about the Temple pre-1990
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 12:04 pm 
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Polygamy-Porter wrote:
http://www.redbubble.com/people/barefootmelanie/works/15810533-pay-lay-ale?p=t-shirt

Image

:lol: :lol: :lol:
I'm glad somebody can laugh about it! The day before my first wedding, going five point to five point with some random guy in the temple through a curtain was beyond weird. At that point, I was just numb, shutting down from bizarre overload, so if his sixth point was making a ....point, as it were, I don't know that I would have even noticed. It would have just blended in with the crazy. Simply having to insert my thigh between a man's thighs who was sitting behind a curtain while my bethrothed stood behind me, encouraging me on, while some little old lady was whispering in my ear the right words and tapping on the old guy's curtain with a tiny hanging mallet was too much.

Anybody else read The Handmaid's Tale, by Margaret Atwood? Her fiction has nothing on real life bizarre Mormon temple stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about the Temple pre-1990
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 3:13 pm 
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Why would they have something in a Temple Ceremony named after a beer??? :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Question about the Temple pre-1990
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 4:39 pm 
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Lemmie wrote:
Polygamy-Porter wrote:
http://www.redbubble.com/people/barefootmelanie/works/15810533-pay-lay-ale?p=t-shirt

Image

:lol: :lol: :lol:
I'm glad somebody can laugh about it! The day before my first wedding, going five point to five point with some random guy in the temple through a curtain was beyond weird. At that point, I was just numb, shutting down from bizarre overload, so if his sixth point was making a ....point, as it were, I don't know that I would have even noticed. It would have just blended in with the crazy. Simply having to insert my thigh between a man's thighs who was sitting behind a curtain while my bethrothed stood behind me, encouraging me on, while some little old lady was whispering in my ear the right words and tapping on the old guy's curtain with a tiny hanging mallet was too much.

Anybody else read The Handmaid's Tale, by Margaret Atwood? Her fiction has nothing on real life bizarre Mormon temple stuff.

Agreed!

ETA- I'm so glad that my upcoming wedding will have none of that weirdness.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about the Temple pre-1990
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 6:35 pm 
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Jesse Pinkman wrote:

ETA- I'm so glad that my upcoming wedding will have none of that weirdness.


Now you get to invent your own weirdness. How cool is that?

:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Question about the Temple pre-1990
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 9:49 pm 
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Jersey Girl wrote:
Jesse Pinkman wrote:

ETA- I'm so glad that my upcoming wedding will have none of that weirdness.


Now you get to invent your own weirdness. How cool is that?

:lol:

Awesomely cool! Maybe Yoda and Dobby should be on one of the center pieces! LOL! :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Question about the Temple pre-1990
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:00 pm 
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Candy buffet!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Question about the Temple pre-1990
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:09 pm 
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Exiled wrote:
deacon blues wrote:
I always imagined "Pele Ale" is some kind of Hawaiian alcoholic beverage. :wink:


Maybe beer is the answer? I know one of the last times I went to the temple included a detour to the local bar afterward for some real pay lay ale. Those sessions grew longer and longer each time I went and the desire for light and knowledge from true refreshment was just too much to resist. :biggrin:

Image

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