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 Post subject: Will the truth EVER prevail?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:56 pm 
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I wonder about this frequently...

The thing that makes me the most bitter about Mormons feeling elite, is that they will never have a "Come to Jesus" No pun intended... (Ok maybe a little.) I hate the thought of them rotting in their caskets not knowing, that they are rotting in their caskets!!! I just wish SO badly that they would have just ONE moment of understanding that they were wrong.. Not me. And that all that time, I was just the only one enjoying the little time I did have. Knowing this truth, depresses me...


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 Post subject: Re: Will the truth EVER prevail?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 1:38 am 
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Yep All the way to their very end they will believe they are going to meet Jesus and then beeeeeeeeep!

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 Post subject: Re: Will the truth EVER prevail?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:37 am 
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son of Ishmael wrote:
Yep All the way to their very end they will believe they are going to meet Jesus and then beeeeeeeeep!

Well...actually they believe they have to get past Joseph first and some sort of security system involving code names and handshakes.

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 Post subject: Re: Will the truth EVER prevail?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:06 pm 
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Maybe that's why the vast majority of people ignore inconvenient truths - they don't believe it will prevail.

Truth does prevail as in a better grounding. A friend said your maturity is based on your ability to handle truths. There are plenty of unpleasant facts that if ignored can be like pulling the rug out from under you - mess up everything because trust was in things that weren't true. But if you've already explored, discovered and accepted or handled truths, when they are thrown in your face, their not going to shake you up as much.


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 Post subject: Re: Will the truth EVER prevail?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:53 pm 
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I live for moments that may never come. That one of my family members or friends in the church will have this wonderful "aha" moment. I have promised myself that I would never say..told you..told you so..told you.. :biggrin: but really...I, myself would love to have a moment like that where ..my gosh..she was right!!

In truth, I still hold to the life after death...without Joseph..without secret names, signs and passwords..but with a community of people who are diverse and yet united in something good.


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 Post subject: Re: Will the truth EVER prevail?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 17, 2016 1:29 pm 
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candygal wrote:
I live for moments that may never come. That one of my family members or friends in the church will have this wonderful "aha" moment. I have promised myself that I would never say..told you..told you so..told you.. :biggrin: but really...I, myself would love to have a moment like that where ..my gosh..she was right!!

In truth, I still hold to the life after death...without Joseph..without secret names, signs and passwords..but with a community of people who are diverse and yet united in something good.

I do too! I've shared some with my siblings, and they were nice, but I could tell they just didn't want to hear it, so I dropped it and avoid the subject. My mom has hurt me very much after I shared with her as logically as I could, about corrupt finances/tithes and distorted church teachings that create anxiety and depression.

My dad has probably in some ways, become more relaxed about the religion than I am. He just goes to Sacrament meeting, because he says the other meetings, people pretend to be perfect & self-righteous. And he recently told me he has beer once in a while. I respect my dad for taking the middle way. He still sees good in the church. I've never heard him say much negatively about it. His girlfriend and he did read "No man knows my history" which surprised him, yet he still likes his friends who he's known for decades. They help each other regularly. He joined the church mostly because of others (friendships). He takes what works for him, and doesn't worry about the rest.

I see a lot of people who leave the church, "crash and burn" (as someone else also observed from his extended family). They go from "every member a missionary of the church" to "everyone an enemy of the church" - from insisting all believe as they do (as far as the church goes)... to insisting all believe as they do (as far as their politics and faith-based-atheism goes). They go from judging others if they drink caffeine.... to forcing themselves to acquire the taste of (what smeels like monkey piss) beer and drinking every chance they get. From no premarital sex... to sleeing with anyone willing. Then there are others, like many on this forum (not you it seems) who are still obsessed with the church history and missionary work - just inside out.

What is truth anyway? Just perspective in a way, and that which causes influence in another. Is it provable that there is or isn't life after death? No proof, either way - nobody's lived to tell. But I'm with you in still believing in it because it makes sense. It is true to me, in the sense that believing produces positive influence for me (and many others). And to me, life is conscious-based. Consciousness is energy and energy never just zaps out of existence - but changes form. So, to me the probability of there being some type of existence after life is greater than not.


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 Post subject: Re: Will the truth EVER prevail?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 2:51 pm 
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Would B. H. Roberts "Studies of the Book of Mormon" be a hint of a mea culpa on the part of LDS hierarchy? While he certainly stayed in the church as a faithful member the rest of his life, I get the feeling that he and the apostles could see where this road was heading.

I can't imagine trying to get any official apology from the LDS church beyond the meager admission in the "Race and the Priesthood" essay beyond the statement:
some combination of editors and apostles wrote:
Today, the Church disavows the theories advanced in the past that black skin is a sign of divine disfavor or curse, or that it reflects unrighteous actions in a premortal life; that mixed-race marriages are a sin; or that blacks or people of any other race or ethnicity are inferior in any way to anyone else. Church leaders today unequivocally condemn all racism, past and present, in any form.

Without some public, cataclysmic scandal in the the church I don't foresee anything beyond this. The LDS church is wealthy enough to cover over most incompetence.


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 Post subject: Re: Will the truth EVER prevail?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:21 pm 
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Truth always is. Illusion allows us to see the truth different than it actually is, but it doesn't change what is true. And within context, how we see things is the truth, given the information and experience that we have. Information and experience will change consciousness. How you see things, is how the universe is.......according to you.

It has always shocked me how someone can mock someone else's fairy tale but then sell their own. Amore mentioned maturity.

To me, maturity is about embracing a belief system and knowing that it is illusion, but then giving proper respect to others doing the same thing. I believe in fairies. I can explain things with fairy symbolism better than most other systems. But I also believe in angels.

But....If you were to gauge your truth, in my opinion you would measure your relationship with the universe as you know it. If your universe accepts you, loves you, etc, than you are doing ok. Mormonism works because it has a support system and it works. For the most part, it does not offend consciousness.

You might point out that Mormonism has corruption in the church, but seriously, look at what is going on with America right now. Is America false........? Well, of course it is, but we believe in it anyway. We believe because it works........or has worked. People are losing faith.

But, from what I have seen on MOM and here, ex Mormons have pretty good ability to see illusion. The mistake they continue to make is believe that one of these illusions are actually the truth.


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 Post subject: Re: Will the truth EVER prevail?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:19 pm 
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SPG wrote:
Truth always is. Illusion allows us to see the truth different than it actually is, but it doesn't change what is true. And within context, how we see things is the truth, given the information and experience that we have. Information and experience will change consciousness. How you see things, is how the universe is.......according to you.

It has always shocked me how someone can mock someone else's fairy tale but then sell their own. Amore mentioned maturity.

To me, maturity is about embracing a belief system and knowing that it is illusion, but then giving proper respect to others doing the same thing.

Good point that illusion is basically our own subjective idea of truth, but doesn't change truth - what causes influence - except when the belief changes consciousness which then affects physiology etc. I guess you could say indirectly (or maybe even metaphysically directly) consciousness does change truth - or make reality what it is.

I've been thinking about the mocking of another's illusion, when we have our own illusion. But I remember you once said/wrote, "Functional illusions are priceless." I really like that and see truth in it. What is functional is something that makes us maybe see healthy possibility, which is good for us and/or others. The LDS church is good and functional in some ways (like loving/serving one another), but as far as finances and psychological aspects (cognitive distortions), it is not functional.

What are functional illusions? I'm sure it's not a one-size-fits all, but still, I think it's good to consider. An Atheist friend won't be convinced of a god, but he did say he imagines the universe - life - as a big playful puppy. It's like this clip with voice of Alan Watts explaining how we keep waiting to "arrive" when there is no arriving. Enjoy the process - there is no "point" to music or dancing - you don't try to get to a certain place or to the end of the song. You enjoy it as you go - as with life.
What do you think?


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 Post subject: Re: Will the truth EVER prevail?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 6:04 pm 
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The idea of mocking someone else's illusion has instinctively bothered me for a long time. Granted, I was raised Mormon, so of course I was taught to put other's illusions down. But it never felt right to me.

But I would like to speak at couple of terms used here.

Functional: What is a functional illusion? What is the purpose of an illusion?
To God, all things are spiritual. To me, an illusion is to produce spirit. I define spirit as, "consciousness dancing with an idea."

Consciousness in it's infinite form, (or rather lack of form) really cannot take any idea seriously. Like say, finding passion and desire to play with dolls when the house is burning down. In the realm of infinite, finding purpose is pretty tough. Why? How? When? Where? And to what extent? These almost impossible to consider when there is infinite, formless, consciousness.

So, in the first layer of illusion, you grab onto just one idea maybe. Not sure what they would be, but it splits the nothingness into "Is and Is Not." Consciousness had to make the first choice, by having an idea, and the spirit was created. We might call this the spirit of God, because before this, not even the spirit of God had manifested. The universe is God dancing with an idea. And we, all play into that.

But each thing that formed out of the Spirit of God had to limit it's possibilities. It had to take on more illusion, to believe in limitation, to want limitation. And so the matter formed.

We humans are also in the game, but in a different part then the same the beings that create the dirt, the sky, the water. But even those things are creations of spirit, of some great being dancing with an idea. They are alive, but perhaps not really tied into our awareness. . . . . . I'm just not sure.

But for us to have purpose, desire, and passion, we too must dance with ideas. And those are illusions. Because the truth, in terms of humans, might simply be too boring, and too pointless. I mean, in the scope of things, what are we? Who are we? Is there a reason to exist beside simply the experience of it? And if so, who wants those experiences?

But what we experience, is totally based on illusion. To be insulted or hurt as Christian or Mormon, we have to believe we are those things. To have the desire to protect or defend, we must believe we are that. But in truth, we are not. We are something older, deeper, and totally unconcerned about the outcome. To care what the church is doing with the money requires immense layers of illusions. Deep down, we are like star dust floating through the deep space and what church is doing doesn't mean anything at all to us. But. . . . because we think we are Mormon, we care.

But the functionality of it is: are we experiencing what we want to experience, are we getting what we want? Are we loving what we love and hating what we hate?

And, perhaps, the functionality of illusion requires that we reject other ideas. Like, if you are Mormon, we must consider all of faiths wrong. Because if we consider that they might be right, well then, ours couldn't be the most right, or the ONLY right. And being the ONLY right people on earth does create a certain flavor to people. Is it bad? I don't know. I love many people that really think I am a lost cause. But in a sense, though they think me lost, they do not mock me. They still respect me, even though they disagree with me. So they continue to benefit from the their illusion, but they still respect others that do not believe like them. . . . . sort of. Of course, some of them are not so mature. But as they age, they seem to mature. They still believe themselves to be chosen, elect, but do not actually mock or make fun of other people's beliefs.

Where I get confused with people is when they go, "Oh, Joseph Smith was false prophet. How stupid can you be to think that a human talked with God? Why don't come to our church we can talk about Jesus, the actually son of God, who really talked with God, and walked on the water, and rose from the dead, etc?"

When I was in Egypt, a number of Muslim were eager to convert me. And I would nod my head with respect, and they thought we were having a such wonderful conversation. I didn't for a second actually consider, or really even understand what they were talking about. But I respected them, none the less.

I think that some illusions might require the "mocking of other faiths" but I don't consider them to be mature or even that functional.

This world is based on the Golden Rule, whether we think of it that or not. But basically, "do unto other as it will be done until you."

If you mock someone, they will mock you. Mockery will eventually lead to war. Whether between family members or nations. I love to share my ideas, my spirit, but I try not to mock others. Even if I strongly disagree with them. But like today, I watched a video of Afghanistan from 1970. They were such beautiful people, for of life, music, art, happiness, etc. Islam, in its current form is hell there. It is so dark and the place so sad. But, the video was actually entitled, "what the CIA did to Afghanistan." Back in the 60's, we supported rebels against Russia, just because we wanted to be dicks. Russia in the end lost their fight there. In a sense, we mocked them. We took their extremists and their hateful ideas, (though we totally disagreed) and supported their push to take over Afghanistan. We didn't respect their beliefs and actually used their hate to poison the entire country, much to our shame and regret.

To me, functionality is one thing. But the level of functionality ties into maturity. I can believe in my illusion and allow others to believe in theirs and still love and respect them. When we mock others, it creates disharmony. Disagreement doesn't really create the disharmony, its the disrespect. Mature people don't expect everyone to agree with them, except me, I expect everyone to agree with me. Our illusions can give us what we seek, love, family, home, etc, but when we mock others, we threaten to ruin what we have.

It's sort of that saying, "those that live in glass houses. . . . . ."


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 Post subject: Re: Will the truth EVER prevail?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:37 pm 
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Hi SPG,
I've been thinking about this for a while and I'm still not sure how to respond. First, I agree that if you have a problem with anything, it's best to bring it up respectfully and as objectively as possible - to not get personal or engage in ad hominem or any other logical fallacies. Still, consider that you have been far removed from the cult, for a while - (as far as I know) you are not surrounded by it and are not shamed or given fear lectures regularly. If I were not living in Utah and not surrounded by the cult, and having been painfully hurt by several people because of the church, I probably wouldn't feel the need to vent about things like I occasionally do. I'd be more likely to see and remember the good and forget the bad. The church has some good aspects - especially loving and serving and striving for better - but it also has some negative aspects - like charging excessive amounts of money for celestial worthiness and many cognitive distortions which contribute to depression and anxiety.

What you mentioned about spirit as "consciousness dancing with an idea" is awesome. I love it! I think it describes it better generally/universally, than anything I've previously considered. Someone asked "Who am I" - generally - like what constitutes you? After listing some ideas, I realized that ultimately, a major part of who we are is potential - possibilities. Einstein said, “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”

The thing I'm learning about functional illusions is that there is no manual - it is up to each of us individually to figure out what inspires and motivates us personally. And also, as we grow, what inspires us will tend to change. Some childhood memories are so good that just thinking about them still gives me a good feeling. But a lot of what used to amaze and get me excited, doesn't anymore - and some things that would have bored me before, I now consider incredibly awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Will the truth EVER prevail?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:02 pm 
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Functional illusions do have a manual, and it's the Golden Rule. More or less, we can agree on a reality with it. The more people we include in the illusion, the more refined it has to be. We talked about morals and such. If we are alone, there isn't much use for morals, or manners.

I think there is a difference between mocking someone's illusion and defending yourself from it, even if mocking can be a method of defending.

But say two people, with different illusions, are talking. One, without provocation starts mocking the other. The breaks the Golden Rule.

But say one of the illusions is aggressive and invasion. You might need to defend against it. Perhaps I mock that other person, "Ha! You think you can touch me? Then you are stupid!! HaHa!!"

But, mocking is an attack. If the attack is unprovoked then you are breaking the Golden Rule.

Where we feel insecure, we might feel the need to defend. Maybe I want to be pretty one at the party tonight, but someone else. I could feel the need to defend my illusion by putting the other down, (even though I am the pretty one and don't need to do that.) But then, that other is more or less justified in putting me down in return. If our illusion claims something difficult to maintain, it could mean war. Like, "I am the richest, or the prettiest, or the strongest, etc." Thus, consciousness, (God) warns us against vanity.

I think venting is important. Like say someone's illusion isn't exactly wrong, but its frustrating. Like Ms. Jones is the town gossip. In her illusion, she hurts you. She might have broke the Golden Rule, but didn't exactly break social rules. You cannot straight out attack her, but you are still hurt. I think "turn about is fair play" to some degree, but do you really want to be like her? Venting to a friend I think is healthy, it is a way of processing something that otherwise might linger in the mind for years.

But still, if you actually attack someone else's illusions. . . . . . I don't know. Some here think it important to "reveal the truth." I'm of the mind, if it works, let it work. I think the karma is healthier. But don't get me wrong, I love to argue with people. And sometimes I do attack illusions, but usually when I think a harmful one. And I'm open to receive the same.


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 Post subject: Re: Will the truth EVER prevail?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:19 am 
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Mama2Boys wrote:
I wonder about this frequently...

The thing that makes me the most bitter about Mormons feeling elite,
And you feel elite because YOU have the "TRUTH"???

cute.

care to show us all why your Jesus is better than theirs?

BTW, I am an apathetic atheist.

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 Post subject: Re: Will the truth EVER prevail?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:58 pm 
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Polygamy-Porter wrote:

BTW, I am an a pathetic atheist.

I wouldn't say you're pathetic - just a little clueless as to why there are countless "A-theist" theologies/books and which of the countless definitions of god, you as an Atheist are supposed to be denying.


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 Post subject: Re: Will the truth EVER prevail?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 3:19 pm 
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I'm a hopeful atheist. I hope someday one of the many different kinds of supposed real God's might actually show up and do something good and useful for once. Something good like live here among his children and teach us all. We have the technology he could virtually show the world everything that is if he cared enough to. Heck he could even run for office and he would probably be voted in unless his opponent was someone like Trump, then of course the elections would be rigged.

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 Post subject: Re: Will the truth EVER prevail?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 9:16 am 
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Philo Sofee wrote:
I'm a hopeful atheist. I hope someday one of the many different kinds of supposed real God's might actually show up and do something good and useful for once. Something good like live here among his children and teach us all. We have the technology he could virtually show the world everything that is if he cared enough to. Heck he could even run for office and he would probably be voted in unless his opponent was someone like Trump, then of course the elections would be rigged.

"God is love" - this is believed as doctrine in many religions, so I'm not redefining God. So, reconsidering what you wrote above in light of God being love:

"I hope someday one of the many different kinds of supposed real love might actually show up and do something good and useful for once. Something good like live here among us and teach us all. We have the technology love could virtually show the world everything that is if love cared enough to..." As you love yourself and others, you love God... God is expressed or known through love. So, if you want to see God - love!

Similarly, "The kingdom of god cometh not with observation [God is NOT a "he" or a "she" up in the sky] Neither shall they say, lo here or lo there! For behold, the kingdom (realm/experience) of God is WITHIN YOU."

“You wander from room to room
Hunting for the diamond necklace
That is already around your neck!”
-Rumi
And Atheists go further, metaphorically, by denying they have a neck. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Will the truth EVER prevail?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:06 pm 
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Cute but then why use the word god if love is all there is? This just confirms atheism. God never was needed, just the human emotion of love. Hope no one burns love crosses on yer lawn :biggrin:

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 Post subject: Re: Will the truth EVER prevail?
PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 12:27 pm 
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God is love & more, but mostly intuitive love felt within - so it's not something that you can deny another experiences. Of the definitions of God in scriptures, Love is a more functional definition than those like tyranical grandpa in the sky, though the latter is easier to logically refute. But Atheists illogically deny all definitions of all gods, even the definitions that are undeniable. If you go by pure logic, Agnosticism makes more sense. If you go by intuitive wisdom for highest potential success, you acknowledge a higher power and intelligence.


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 Post subject: Re: Will the truth EVER prevail?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:35 am 
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No I don't. By the very same books I can show God is hate and more. All I have to do is cherry pick different verses that you don't use. Atheists deny the definitions of the Gods because none of them have evidence or else they are contradictory. Those are valid reasons for denying that.

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 Post subject: Re: Will the truth EVER prevail?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 2:59 pm 
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PhiloSofee,
You can think of love as a sucky awful thing too. Just cherry pick to your hearts content - you do it anyway - we all do.
IE: You can say, God is a jerk so I'm Atheist -I don't believe in jerky gods - so there are no gods. Cherry picking.
You can say, the church is so wonderful - and I know it's the best thing ever! Cherry picking.
You can say, the church is so messed up - and I know it's the worst thing ever! More cherry picking.
All that you think is subjective - that's the essence of philosophy - Socrate's idea that you don't know anything - it's all just limited personal perspectives.


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 Post subject: Re: Will the truth EVER prevail?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 4:15 pm 
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Lol! Yeah well so much for ever understanding anything that is real eh?
It's not that God is a Jerk It's that God is completely absent. With no evidence for the putative deitie's existence there simply can't be any reality to it. That's not subjective that's actual. Today no one anywhere at any time has actually shown us any evidence for anything that is Supernatural. It's all just natural. If you have evidence for something Supernatural please do share. I've got plenty of evidence for the natural and I'm happy to share that.

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