Kish, Ray, and Doctor Scratch?

Shulem · **Posted:** Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:30 pm

Kishkumen wrote:

I believed this man to be a dear friend and now he is pulling out the stops, referring to our old private email correspondence in public, dragging up old threads to argue something he knows to be factually false... What would you have me do here?

Take the higher road and put him on ignore. Who gives a damn if someone says your Dr. Scratch! You know better. That's all that really counts. Quit fighting with Ray. This is turning into a mean fistfight that doesn't do anyone any good.

Jesus!

Paul O

Ludd · **Joined:** Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:31 pm **Posts:** 332

krose wrote:

If those two are the same person, that person is either freakishly talented or has a split personality. Their writing styles are clearly different (different tone, different attitude, even different use of vocabulary), and they are both internally consistent.

Huh? I'm not sure what you're reading, but their tone, attitude, and vocabulary are VERY much alike. That's why I always thought they were the same person. And what's really hilarious is that "Trevor" thought so too and made posts saying as much. Did you read the 2009 thread that Ray linked to? You need to. It's all so obvious. :lol:

Kishkumen · **Posted:** Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:36 pm

RayAgostini wrote:

It is true that I've criticised Mormonism (I deleted the only critical blog I had years ago, as I felt it was bad and too negative, and it made me feel bad), but the only "hate" I've felt was when I got banned from MDDB, and that set me off. I've never been nasty to DCP, even when we disagreed. I've never sworn at him, nor called him things like "Danny boy", or mocked him.

Who are you trying to convince here, Ray, yourself? Daniel? "Remember I have remained true to you, Daniel! I am only betraying my old friend Kishkumen because it finally dawned on me, inexplicably, that he is a diabolical split personality of some kind."

Ahem. Yeah.

So, we should believe you because you never said something so mean about Daniel, but you have no trouble betraying our friendship without warning or explanation. You also vacillate between abject hatred for Mormonism and apologetics for it.

I don't find that at all credible. Why should anyone trust you? I doubt Daniel and Will, your new fast friends for whom you are willing to sell your soul, really trust you.

RayAgostini · **Joined:** Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:43 pm **Posts:** 1633

Trevor wrote:

Daniel Peterson wrote:

He just won't give it up, folks.

How can I not find this oddly fascinating?

Yeah, it is intriguing. Scratch is looking for any opportunity he can find to call the activities of Mormon apologists into question and discredit their work. It is a quest that has truly taken on a life of its own. As you know, I have sometimes thought it must be a gag of some kind, but I admit defeat. Who would keep a gag going this long? That's religious dedication for you.

Then "Kishkumen":

Kishkumen wrote:

Trevor wrote:

Collaborator? I don't know, Kishkumen, sounds kind of sinister to me! I can't imagine a Scratchite accusing someone in terms like those. Either that, or you don't have much of a sense of humor.

Trevor,

Do you have anything of substance to add here? Or did you just come to bellyache about Scratch? Do you have some kind of grudge against him? I am not here to attack or to psychologize you; I am here to bring the fight to Mopologetic bullies who deserve it. It is fine for you to joke around with Peterson, but his record is there for all to see, and I, for one, think we should be looking at that, not spending time on your dissection of Scratch's perceived foibles. I am sure Dr. Peterson can get along fine without your handholding.

Who is the trustworthy one here?

Kishkumen · **Posted:** Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:39 pm

RayAgostini wrote:

Kishkumen wrote:

I notice Ray does not deny that he has ulterior motives.

Very Scratchian.

Sure, and you don't deny you have ulterior motives. Calling my statement " Scratchian" does not change that.

Kishkumen · **Posted:** Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:44 pm

RayAgostini wrote:

Who is the trustworthy one here?

Certainly not the guy who professes long friendship and then completely betrays it with no warning in a very public way, and making false accusations to boot. Yep. You are not trustworthy, and ancient threads are not going to obscure that glaring fact.

RayAgostini · **Joined:** Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:43 pm **Posts:** 1633

Just take a look at this thread again, and explain to me how anyone could be so confused and convoluted and exhibit clear signs of a split personality, or is just playing a "game".

http://www.mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3 ... f=1&t=8899

Ludd · **Joined:** Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:31 pm **Posts:** 332

Kishkumen wrote:

I have to admit, that was a great deal of fun. It still comes nowhere close to proving I am Doctor Scratch. Any appearance to the contrary is contradicted by a lot of evidence, including the witness of those people on this board who have met Doctor Scratch in person. Ray doesn't believe I am either. He has just decided that loyalty to his new friends, and their acceptance and gratitude, are more important than principles, the truth, or even his own integrity.

I see you're going to try to BS your way out of this. Integrity? Truth? Man, that is rich.

Why not just man up and take your medicine. Like I said, the jig is up. Much as I am sorry to see the great Doctor Scratch go, I don't see any way for you to keep him alive at this point. So why not just take credit for what was truly a genius gig you pulled off for so long? It was great, dude. I mean, Doctor Scratch will go down in message board history as one of the greatest posters of all! I'm serious. It was true genius and you should be proud as can be of what you did!

Kishkumen · **Posted:** Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:51 pm

RayAgostini wrote:

Just take a look at this thread again, and explain to me how anyone could be so confused and convoluted and exhibit clear signs of a split personality, or is just playing a "game".

http://www.mormondiscussions.com/phpBB3 ... f=1&t=8899

I think it's funny that you pretend that garden-variety sock-puppetry of this kind is at all unusual. What is crazy is the guy who threatens missionaries one day and professes his undying admiration for Daniel Peterson at other times. That's not trustworthy at all, but probably for reasons we can't hold you entirely accountable for.

Kishkumen · **Posted:** Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:54 pm

Ludd wrote:

I see you're going to try to BS your way out of this. Integrity? Truth? Man, that is rich.

Proof? You have none.

But you can certainly continue to bluster as though 'the jig' were up!

No doubt you will.

RayAgostini · **Joined:** Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:43 pm **Posts:** 1633

Another example. These Trevor and Kish posts are 18 minutes apart:

viewtopic.php?p=209387#p209387

Kishkumen wrote:

Calculus Crusader wrote:

I could do the same with the patently absurd Book of Mormon. Does Dr. Peterson really believe the indigenous peoples of the Americas are descended from peregrinating Israelites? Does he really believe God changes peoples' melanin counts because they are wicked? Does he really believe Mesoamericans produced steel arms and armor? Does he really believe in Jaredite submersibles? Etc.

They generally do believe it until it becomes far too embarrassing to do so, and then they invent things like LGT. After all, now Native Americans are only descended from Lehi in a "covenantal" (read symbolic) sense. Those weapons were really made out of obsidian or some such. The job of the Mopologist is to render the patently ridiculous palatable to those who really want to believe fairy tales but are embarrassed to face that fact. The win for the LDS Church is that it can perpetuate itself and not implode under the weight of its mass of contradictory absurdities.

Trevor wrote:

Kishkumen wrote:

Most people will always be on the outside, struggling to prove their worthiness for the secrets of the inner sanctum. They imagine that there must be profound doctrines or hidden bits of knowledge that the hierarchy have waiting for them, if they but suffer the current indignities like good soldiers. Then, if they should happen to "arrive," they find that all they have won is the power to control the kind of information that old folks on porches use to torment their neighbors.

This looks a lot like my Mopologetic category of student of the mysteries, but hyped up on high-octane Scratchoids (a new drug for somewhat reckless critics).

Looks like you have found another disciple, Scratch. Congratulations to all three of you. And who said polygamy is dead!

And you're trying to blame me?

Ludd · **Joined:** Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:31 pm **Posts:** 332

Shulem wrote:

Kishkumen wrote:

Well, I hope you are profiting handsomely to sell out like this. I have no idea what they are offering you, but it must be pretty damn sweet to get you to bear false witness and look like a complete and utter looney.

Oh stop it, Kishy. You're just egging him on wanting more and more. You aren't fooling me. You love the contention and the drama. You should be ashamed of yourself. Stop this nonsense.

:mad:

Paul O

I agree. Kishkumen should stand tall and take credit for one of the greatest message board sock puppet shows in internet history. I'm dead serious. It was brilliant, and I'm sincerely sorry to see the Doctor Scratch Show end it's run.

Ludd · **Joined:** Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:31 pm **Posts:** 332

Kishkumen wrote:

Shulem wrote:

Oh stop it, Kishy. You're just egging him on wanting more and more. You aren't fooling me. You love the contention and the drama. You should be ashamed of yourself. Stop this nonsense.

:mad:

Paul O

Who accused whom here, Shulem?

I believed this man to be a dear friend and now he is pulling out the stops, referring to our old private email correspondence in public, dragging up old threads to argue something he knows to be factually false... What would you have me do here?

You know what I'd like to see you do? Seriously. Take a week or two and come up with the Top 100 Scratch Threads of All Time. A Top Ten wouldn't be enough.

Ceeboo · **Joined:** Sat Feb 13, 2010 7:58 pm **Posts:** 2934

Hey all!

I highly, highly doubt that Kish is Scratch but I can and will tell you this certain fact:

Dr. Daniel Peterson is Ceeboo!

Peace,
DCeebooP

Kishkumen · **Posted:** Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:39 pm

RayAgostini wrote:

And you're trying to blame me?

Ray, none of this stuff from years ago weighs very heavily against the fact that you betrayed a friend now. The Trevor/Kish secret was revealed some years ago, and since that time it has been an open secret. Your sudden inexplicable betrayal is in the here and now. Shine it on all you want, but you have manifested yourself as a real fink.

RayAgostini · **Joined:** Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:43 pm **Posts:** 1633

Kishkumen wrote:

Ray, none of this stuff from years ago weighs very heavily against the fact that you betrayed a friend now. The Trevor/Kish secret was revealed some years ago, and since that time it has been an open secret. Your sudden inexplicable betrayal is in the here and now. Shine it on all you want, but you have manifested yourself as a real fink.

I told you about two days ago there's no more friendship. Get over it. I don't hate you, but we'll never have a drink together.

Kishkumen · **Posted:** Wed Jun 13, 2012 5:51 pm

RayAgostini wrote:

I told you about two days ago there's no more friendship. Get over it. I don't hate you, but we'll never have a drink together.

Right. I'm afraid not, Ray. Two whole days, huh? You think the fact that you blindsided me two days ago changes the fact that you blindsided me? You unilaterally declare our friendship over without any explanation, any attempt to sort things out, or anything, and now you think "get over it" exculpates you in some way? Hey, believe me, I get the fact that you have decided to be my enemy. I just think everyone who follows your little crusade against me should know how it happened that you suddenly turned on me, turned on a dime, and started leveling false accusations against me based on threads you have known about for years.

You lack credibility. Any.

We may not be any closer to knowing the identity of Doctor Scratch, but we know exactly what kind of person Ray Agostini is today.

RayAgostini · **Joined:** Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:43 pm **Posts:** 1633

Kishkumen wrote:

Right. I'm afraid not, Ray. Two whole days, huh? You think the fact that you blindsided me two days ago changes the fact that you blindsided me? You unilaterally declare our friendship over without any explanation, any attempt to sort things out, or anything, and now you think "get over it" exculpates you in some way? Hey, believe me, I get the fact that you have decided to be my enemy. I just think everyone who follows your little crusade against me should know how it happened that you suddenly turned on me, turned on a dime, and started leveling false accusations against me based on threads you have known about for years.

You lack credibility. Any.

We may not be any closer to knowing the identity of Doctor Scratch, but we know exactly what kind of person Ray Agostini is today.

Don't wallow in bitterness and revenge too much. It's not good for your health.

Kishkumen · **Posted:** Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:06 pm

RayAgostini wrote:

Don't wallow in bitterness and revenge too much. It's not good for your health.

You would know, wouldn't you?

After all, it clearly messed with your brain.

moksha · **Posted:** Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:10 pm

liz3564 wrote:

Yes...I am Scratch...you are Scratch....we are ALL Scratch.... :twisted:

Ha! That would first require that we be all itch.

BTW, perhaps Ray noticed that Kish was stocking up on calamine lotion.

Ludd · **Joined:** Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:31 pm **Posts:** 332

Kishkumen wrote:

Ludd wrote:

I see you're going to try to BS your way out of this. Integrity? Truth? Man, that is rich.

Proof? You have none.

But you can certainly continue to bluster as though 'the jig' were up!

No doubt you will.

I have always thought that "Doctor Scratch" was a character. I mean, he's not a real person so much as he's a talking head. Like that Max Headroom character that had a short run back in the 1980's. To me, "Doctor Scratch" has always read like a dialogue written by a writer. I think it has been a great character. He's funnier than shi*, if you ask me. Like in the Monty Python movie, I'm sure it's not all to be taken literally. But I do think it's been intended to be serious. So I guess what I'm saying is that I think "Doctor Scratch" should be respected as a serious work of art. If you're not the author, then I guess someone else is, and I'm in favor of giving that person credit for doing something I think is a lot better than Mr. Diety, or other things I've read meant to be parody or intelligent criticism. I admit I've read a small part of all the Doctor Scratch "episodes", but quite a lot of what I've read has been intelligent criticism and parody. It doesn't matter if all the details are exactly right so much as it does he's giving us a very well drawn picture of what things are probably really like. At least that's how I've looked at it. You know what they say about art-there's no accounting for taste.

p.s.
I will say this: those threads Ray has posted sure make it look like you and Scratch and Trevor are the same person, given what we know now. But I guess you're saying that we're reading it wrong. Ok. But like I keep saying, if you ARE Doctor Scratch, I for one don't think you have anything to be ashamed of. Quite the opposite if you ask me.

Kish, Ray, and Doctor Scratch?

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