New poster here, so please be kind.

By veil, I mean the Veil supposedly placed over our soul's "memory" that prevents us from remembering the pre-existence. I have always thought that the veil of forgetfulness was necessary for agency to have it's full effect. This ensures we have the perfect set of conditions to be tested and gain Deity training experiences necessary for exaltation here during this brief sliver of eternity. We see this in Technicolor during the temple endowment movie when Michael, having forgotten all, becomes Adam our first father.

My my wife pointed out that we had agency in the pre-existence, and were able to choose sides even before our lives here, and that agency seems to be necessary after death if those in spirit prison are to freely choose and accept their proxy temple work. Since agency seems to be present throughout eternity, and a large part of the host of heaven were able to choose wrongly even in God's presence, why do we even need a veil of forgetfulness to start this life with? It seems like it is just a convenient way to start a story, sort of like Harry Potter having his memory blasted by Voldemort's wand when he was a toddler, or the flashy thingy in Men In Black.

Is there any doctrinal statements that square the veil with agency? Am I just thinking in circles here?

[Moved to Telestial due to temple content - EA]

Maybe because we would remember sitting around the giant table at the grand conference in Rivenda... oops I mean in the pre-existence. If we remembered that "grand counsel", would we have to use faith and our agency in this life?

If we remembered having firesides and F&TMs with God, we would all have a perfect knowledge of him. Does "agency" really mean "having faith"? Hmm, I need to think about this for a while.

Thanks!

The only temple content I see is the quote in the last sentence, first paragraph. It seems pretty benign, but oh well.

I agree it's benign, but it is still temple content. The discussion can continue here just the same.

In mortality we must learn capacities and skills, not merely gather information. The veil is a necessary part of that process...for us. As you read the article, pay special attention to the importance of submission and commitment and how this dovetails with responsibility.

From:

http://LDS.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnex ... &hideNav=1

This article seems to brush the edges of making some doctrinal statements.

The section called, The Skeptic’s Fallacy, is worth mulling over a bit.

Regards,
MG

This is what I got from The Skeptic's Fallacy. Most of us have known people who will not test the truthfulness of the gospel because they are not willing to submit to our indoctrination.

Thanks, MG, for the link. Interesting ideas. I agree that many would fall near or into the realm of doctrine.
The author makes the point that we are here for "skill acquisition" and we do so by imitating the master who trains us. I quote:
"In an important book about the philosophy of knowledge, a scholar named Michael Polanyi identifies skill acquisition as a unique field of knowledge. Polanyi believes we can learn a skill only by imitating the skillful performance of one who has mastered the skill—even though the teacher whom we imitate cannot specify and measure every detail of his art. There is a close analogy between this idea and the central gospel concept that knowing the Savior personally and emulating his example is the ultimate way of living the gospel, a way that transcends merely following specific commandments and detailed doctrines.
Though Polanyi is not writing about religion, his concept does apply to religious knowledge: “To learn by example is to submit to authority. You follow your master because you trust his manner of doing things even when you cannot analyze and account in detail for its effectiveness. By watching the master and emulating his efforts in the presence of his example, the apprentice unconsciously picks up the rules of the art, including those which are not explicitly known to the master himself. These hidden rules can be assimilated only by a person who surrenders himself to that extent uncritically to the imitation of another. A society which wants to preserve a fund of personal knowledge must submit to tradition” (Personal Knowledge, New York: Harper and Row, 1964, page 53)."

This idea directly contradicts the notion of a veil. A veil clearly draws a curtain between us and the master we are supposed to emulate, putting in place another man, a prophet, who becomes the master we are supposed to emulate. What kind of Father leaves us in the hands of the likes of Brigham Young for our training to become a God like him. The odds of getting the right trainers through the lottery odds of birth to a BIC LDS couple are astronomically ridiculous. The veil seems especially damaging to the billions who don’t get a “lucky” birth.

Welcome PG,

As a Mormon, the fact that I KNEW this life was a test totally skewed the outcome, don't you think?

Does the Mormon god reeeeeally want us to know that life is a behavioral test?

Are we the only Christian religion that believes in a Pre-mortal existence?

It would go a long way towards explaining the poor reasoning we have for a "veil" of forgetfulness. I think most Christians believe they were created body and spirit at birth, right?

Frankly, the idea of a mortal "test" seems crazy when agency exists eternally. This seems like a strange test to put your children through, especially when the pass rate is less than 0.001% of your children.

It all begs the entire question of can you really judge someone who is acting under the assumption that they are being watched? wouldn't it be a better or more truthfull examination if they don't know and act accordingly to how they really are?

its one of the major fallacies i find with pascals wager. Behaving a certain way purely because you think you are under immediate inspection and not because its what you really would do.

As an example, i smoke cigars. I know that there can be damage to my health because of this, but i ellect to anyway. (don't worry, its only at special events or at most once a month) I can better use my agency when i know the full range of information. I make a concious decision each time i smoke because i have the information.

lets even go here, (theoreticaly) if the pre-existance was real and we knew about everything. We are then sent down to earth with this knowledge and given full free agency. wouldn't some of us get a better understanding of what that really meant fully knowing and understanding the bredth of what coices mean? If after experiencing full free agency, would i still elect to choose gods plan vs satans plan after better understanding what it meant?