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 Post subject: Re: Darth J: Apologist For bigotry, Lawlessness and Genocide
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:10 pm 
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I am a great admirer of Brother Droopy. He's clearly a great learner, posessed of vast amounts of knowledge.


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 Post subject: Re: Darth J: Apologist For bigotry, Lawlessness and Genocide
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:44 pm 
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So THIS guy is the evil, hateful murder-and-genocide-supporting bad guy:
Quote:
Oh, Droopy. A lesser man would have long since shrunk from continually making a complete fool of himself. I am glad to see that you are made of stronger stuff.

Darth J wrote:
No. Joseph Smith was not killed because of his religious beliefs. He was killed because of his unlawful destruction of a printing press that published true things that Joseph Smith was hiding from his followers and the general public. That does not make Joseph Smith's murder either legally or morally justifiable at all, but it was Joseph Smith's own reaction to the Expositor's publication that led to his death. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22784&p=561130&hilit=murder+expositor#p561130


Darth J wrote:
Joseph Smith had been teaching and testifying about the Book of Mormon for 14 years, give or take, when he was killed. It wasn't the sudden realization of, "Hey! He's talking about that gold bible!" that led to his death.

That doesn't mean that he deserved to die or that he wasn't murdered in a horrible act of mob violence. He didn't, and he was. http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/496 ... 1208858679


Darth J wrote:
Also, where are you getting this idea that anyone here who has criticized the Church's faith-promoting narrative about why Joseph Smith died thinks that his murder was justified in any way? We've all said it was murder and that their is no possible justification for what happened. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13380


Darth J wrote:
I disagree that Joseph Smith deserved to die, and I stand by what I said on MADB that he was murdered in a horrible act of mob violence. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=13162&start=105


Darth J wrote:
Who here said that it was perfectly okay for anyone to destroy the property of the early members of the Church? posting.php?mode=reply&f=1&t=25271


Darth J wrote:
That the LDS Church is involved is particularly disappointing, because the Church really does do a lot of humanitarian work when it puts its mind to it. And most Latter-day Saints, in my experience, tend to be kind and decent people who wouldn't feel good about demolishing a motel where poor people are living just to let the land lie vacant until Jesus' next business venture can be thought of. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=16021&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=294


Darth J wrote:
One of the fallacies that many self-annointed defenders of the faith cling to is that members who lose their faith in the LDS Church, as I have, and are even vocal about it, as I am (on this message board, anyway), is that people who lose their faith are angry and hate the Church.

I don't hate the Church. I go to Church. I have no intention of ever removing my name from the Church. I have kids I am raising in the Church.

Why? To paraphrase the end of the South Park episode "All About Mormons," maybe we do have some weird beliefs, but we have good values.

I don't have any faith left in the Church being true, and I think a lot of what it does is silly or based on misplaced priorities, but what I do have left is good values, and I hope my kids can pick up on some of that. viewtopic.php?p=349540


And THIS guy is the loving, peace-loving, latter-day-saintly Christian:
Quote:
You have no way out, Darth. You have exposed yourself for what you really are, at the core, and now you are going to have to live with it.

Fortunately, you're an anonymous bigot and revisionist sanitizer of the persecutions and mass violence against the Saints, and so you will never be called to account for your moral degeneracy, or your attempts to redeem yourself by quoting long lost statements of dubious sincerity and inconsistent intellectual content.

Since you've been in this forum, you've shown yourself to be completely devoid of both intellectual substance and moral scruple. You're a clever and ethically empty manipulator of words, but you have not a particle of either intellectual or moral credibility to support your verbal virtuosity.

You curled up and died morally and spiritually long ago, and you finally, perhaps unwittingly, in a moment of spasmodic, uncontrolled narcissism of the kind common among activist lawyers, let the mask slip off just a bit too far.

And now, its too late, and you'll just have to live with it.


Got it. Makes perfect sense.

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 Post subject: Re: Darth J: Apologist For bigotry, Lawlessness and Genocide
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:24 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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More virulent anti-Mormon hatred by Darth J!!!!

From my review of Truth Restored by Gordon B. Hinckley:

Darth J wrote:
As mentioned above, the social/political tensions between Mormons and their semi-civilized (my words, not Hinckley’s) neighbors in Missouri is glossed over quickly, and we are again treated to the suggestion that this violence and tension, which in no way is excusable, was entirely because of religious belief. In this reviewer’s opinion, examining the root causes for this persecution is no more justifying it than investigating a murder case means the police are blaming the victim. But persecution is hinted at as a sign that the Church is true, so Elder Hinckley spends numerous pages talking about mobocracy without explaining why it was so universal wherever the Mormons went (nor whether part of the problem may have been that the half-literate hillbillies they kept running into were simply intolerant in general). viewtopic.php?f=1&t=15625&p=383051&hilit=hillbillies#p383051

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 Post subject: Re: Darth J: Apologist For bigotry, Lawlessness and Genocide
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:30 pm 
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Here's a little dialectic to explain the reasoning (if it can be called that) which Droopy is employing in this thread:

Person A: "Hitler was a cannibal, you know. And he sacrificed Jewish babies to Lucifer!"

Person B: "Actually, there is no evidence that Hitler was a cannibal or that he sacrificed Jewish babies. He did many horrible things, but not those particular things."

Person A: "Jew hater! You hate Jews!!! And you're a Holocaust denier!!!!"

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 Post subject: Re: Darth J: Apologist For bigotry, Lawlessness and Genocide
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:35 pm 
Dark Lord of the Sith
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Droopy wrote:
Oh, by the way Darth, the Holocaust never happened.

Just by way of moral and intellectual comparison, I wanted to situate you in the proper moral and cognitive sphere in which you have now settled comfortably.



Try to enjoy the daylight.


You're confused again, Droopy. It was the LDS Church that adopted a policy of Nazi sympathizing:

http://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/024-20-29.pdf

"Hitler enjoyed at least as much popularity among German Saints as he did among the population in general. His apparent dynamism and self-confidence seemed to show a way out of the chaos and weakness of the Weimar years. Moreover, as ‘good Germans,' the Mormons were acutely aware that Hitler had risen to power through legal channels... Some Church members even saw Hitler as God’s instrument, preparing the world for the millennium. Superficial parallels were drawn between the Church and the Nazi party with its emphasis on active involvement by every member... The vital importance of ‘Aryan’ ancestry gave new significance to genealogical research. And the Fuhrer himself, the non-smoking, non-drinking vegetarian who yielded to no one in his desire for absolute law and order, seemed to embody many of the most basic LDS virtues."

- Alan F. Keele and Douglas F. Tobler, “The Fuhrer’s New Clothes: Helmuth Huebner and the Mormons in the Third Reich,” Sunstone, v. 5, no. 6, pp. 20-29

"... [S]ympathy [for some of the Nazi goals] was apparently shared by some members of the [Mormon] Church leadership. The Church's German magazine, Der Stern, reminded its readers in 1935 that Senator Reed Smoot had long been a friend of Germany, and this attitude seemed to receive official sanction during President Grant's 1937 visit. The message to the German Saints was clear: Stay here. Keep the Commandments. Try to get along the best you can, even under some limitations. We want to keep the Church intact and the missionaries working.”

- Alan F. Keele and Douglas F. Tobler, “The Fuhrer’s New Clothes: Helmuth Huebner and the Mormons in the Third Reich,” Sunstone, v. 5, no. 6, pp. 20-29

"The German Saints were not eager for a confrontation with their national government and they were happy to follow President Grant's advice. By and large, the Mormons and the Nazis coexisted comfortably."

- Alan F. Keele and Douglas F. Tobler, “The Fuhrer’s New Clothes: Helmuth Huebner and the Mormons in the Third Reich,” Sunstone, v. 5, no. 6, pp. 20-29

"In their eagerness to coexist with the [Nazi] government, American officials of the German Church resorted to public relation efforts . . . Probably the clearest example of this tendency is an article by West German Mission President Alfred C. Rees entitled 'In the Land of the Mormons.' The article appeared in a special issue of the Nazi Party organ Der Volkische Beobachter dated April 14 1937. In the Editor's Preface to the article, President Rees is called 'the representative of the Church in Germany,' who 'paints for our readers a portrait of Mormonism today, a church which views the New Germany with sympathy and friendship.' Whether President Rees originally wrote the article in German or not, the language of the piece abounds in such loaded terms as Volk and Rasse (race), and a picture of Brigham Young bears the caption, 'Fuhrer der historischen Mormonenpioniere.' But the significance of these linguistic gaffes is magnified by hindsight. More disturbing is the way President Rees blatantly parallels Mormonism with Nazism. As Rees warms to his topic, Mormonism begins to sound like a fulfillment of Nazi teachings, providing 'the practical realization of the German ideal: "the common good takes precedence over the individual good."' Rees concluded by assuring his readers that 'Mormons are people who put this healthy doctrine into action.' Reading articles such as this, it would have been easy for a German Saint to mistakenly conclude that the seal of official Church approval had been placed on the Nazi regime."

- Alan F. Keele and Douglas F. Tobler, “The Fuhrer’s New Clothes: Helmuth Huebner and the Mormons in the Third Reich,” Sunstone, v. 5, no. 6, pp. 20-29

"[The Mormon] policy of appeasing the Nazis worked well until the war broke out. Despite the classification of Mormonism as a sect 'dangerous to the state…' according to Gestapo reports, the Church was not summarily dissolved as many others were. The missionaries remained; the Church continued. Even during the war, Mormon life was disrupted more by bombing raids, supply shortages, and travel restrictions than by official harassment. By and large, the German Saints lived through the Thousand-Year Reich much like the rest of their countrymen."

- Alan F. Keele and Douglas F. Tobler, “The Fuhrer’s New Clothes: Helmuth Huebner and the Mormons in the Third Reich,” Sunstone, v. 5, no. 6, pp. 20-29

"Some Church members even saw Hitler as God's instrument, preparing the world for the millennium."

- Alan F. Keele and Douglas F. Tobler, “The Fuhrer’s New Clothes: Helmuth Huebner and the Mormons in the Third Reich,” Sunstone, v. 5, no. 6, pp. 20-29

"Superficial parallels were drawn between the Church and the Nazi Party, with its emphasis on active involvement by every member. The women's auxiliary of the Party and the Hitler Youth were regarded by some as secular equivalents to the Church's Relief Society, MIA, and the Scouting programs."

- Alan F. Keele and Douglas F. Tobler, “The Fuhrer’s New Clothes: Helmuth Huebner and the Mormons in the Third Reich,” Sunstone, v. 5, no. 6, pp. 20-29

"The vital importance of ‘Aryan' ancestry gave new significance to genealogical research."

- Alan F. Keele and Douglas F. Tobler, “The Fuhrer’s New Clothes: Helmuth Huebner and the Mormons in the Third Reich,” Sunstone, v. 5, no. 6, pp. 20-29

"... [T]he Fuhrer himself, the non-smoking, non-drinking vegetarian who yielded to no one in his desire for absolute law and order, seemed to embody many of the most basic LDS virtues."

- Alan F. Keele and Douglas F. Tobler, “The Fuhrer’s New Clothes: Helmuth Huebner and the Mormons in the Third Reich,” Sunstone, v. 5, no. 6, pp. 20-29

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 Post subject: Re: Darth J: Apologist For bigotry, Lawlessness and Genocide
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:30 pm 
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Quote:
Got it. Makes perfect sense.


Darth V says whatever he thinks he has to say to make whatever point he desires to make and score debating points in whatever manner he believes he has to score them.

He made intellectual common cause with the rampaging bigoted mobs of the 19th century, and no amount of dredging up apparent inconsistencies to that clear moral choice of sides in a pivotal historical moment can alter that reality now.

Darth has made a clown of himself here on numerous occasions as he Google's frantically so as to make himself appear knowledgeable and expert upon things of which he has little or no comprehension. He does this because he enjoys arguing, debating, and using courtroom argumentation tactics to twist, insinuate, distort, misrepresent, and knowingly misconstrue arguments and assertions made by defenders of the LDS Church to sow contention and confusion for its own sake. Nothing matters to him but this.

His is the pattern of anti-Christ mentioned in the Book of Mormon, and mastered by Zeezrom, a man after his own heart and profession.

He nearly lives on this board for the purpose of defaming, impugning, calumniating, slandering, mischaracterizing, warping, and misrepresenting each and every doctrine, teaching, and principle of the gospel and the words of its leaders and of those who defend it from its critics.

He is a careful and clever prevaricator and demagogue (like many of his profession), and no one of this kind can be trusted very far when he backpedals after the mask comes off and his guard drops. It only takes one such incident to reveal the puppeteer behind the Kabuki doll. Indulgence in vicarious support of the unleashed mob bigotry against a peaceful, law abiding, civil people by rampaging thugs is an old, old story among apostates from the Church. It was very real in the 19th century. In a core of cases, its a part of the territory and psychological dynamics that come with the searing of the conscience and the impotent war against the truth that must follow.

But I might as well be talking to a stalk of celery, no?

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Last edited by Droopy on Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Darth J: Apologist For bigotry, Lawlessness and Genocide
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:32 pm 
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Droopy wrote:

But I might as well be a talking stalk of celery, no?


Fix't.

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 Post subject: Re: Darth J: Apologist For bigotry, Lawlessness and Genocide
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:34 pm 
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I rest my case.

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I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell


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 Post subject: Re: Darth J: Apologist For bigotry, Lawlessness and Genocide
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 6:45 pm 
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Droopy wrote:
I rest my case.


So, Droopy, word around the campfire is that the Obama administration is going to use its newly-established unlimited Commerce Clause power to force people to go to Okinawa, where they will learn that Tang Soo Do originated there, that its katas are not shared with Shotokan, and that Twei Na and Trulkor do not exist.

Your thoughts on the matter?

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 Post subject: Re: Darth J: Apologist For bigotry, Lawlessness and Genocide
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:15 pm 
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Darth J wrote:
Droopy wrote:
Oh, by the way Darth, the Holocaust never happened.

Just by way of moral and intellectual comparison, I wanted to situate you in the proper moral and cognitive sphere in which you have now settled comfortably.



Try to enjoy the daylight.


You're confused again, Droopy. It was the LDS Church that adopted a policy of Nazi sympathizing:

http://www.sunstonemagazine.com/pdf/024-20-29.pdf

"Hitler enjoyed at least as much popularity among German Saints as he did among the population in general. His apparent dynamism and self-confidence seemed to show a way out of the chaos and weakness of the Weimar years. Moreover, as ‘good Germans,' the Mormons were acutely aware that Hitler had risen to power through legal channels... Some Church members even saw Hitler as God’s instrument, preparing the world for the millennium. Superficial parallels were drawn between the Church and the Nazi party with its emphasis on active involvement by every member... The vital importance of ‘Aryan’ ancestry gave new significance to genealogical research. And the Fuhrer himself, the non-smoking, non-drinking vegetarian who yielded to no one in his desire for absolute law and order, seemed to embody many of the most basic LDS virtues."

- Alan F. Keele and Douglas F. Tobler, “The Fuhrer’s New Clothes: Helmuth Huebner and the Mormons in the Third Reich,” Sunstone, v. 5, no. 6, pp. 20-29

"... [S]ympathy [for some of the Nazi goals] was apparently shared by some members of the [Mormon] Church leadership. The Church's German magazine, Der Stern, reminded its readers in 1935 that Senator Reed Smoot had long been a friend of Germany, and this attitude seemed to receive official sanction during President Grant's 1937 visit. The message to the German Saints was clear: Stay here. Keep the Commandments. Try to get along the best you can, even under some limitations. We want to keep the Church intact and the missionaries working.”

- Alan F. Keele and Douglas F. Tobler, “The Fuhrer’s New Clothes: Helmuth Huebner and the Mormons in the Third Reich,” Sunstone, v. 5, no. 6, pp. 20-29

"The German Saints were not eager for a confrontation with their national government and they were happy to follow President Grant's advice. By and large, the Mormons and the Nazis coexisted comfortably."

- Alan F. Keele and Douglas F. Tobler, “The Fuhrer’s New Clothes: Helmuth Huebner and the Mormons in the Third Reich,” Sunstone, v. 5, no. 6, pp. 20-29

"In their eagerness to coexist with the [Nazi] government, American officials of the German Church resorted to public relation efforts . . . Probably the clearest example of this tendency is an article by West German Mission President Alfred C. Rees entitled 'In the Land of the Mormons.' The article appeared in a special issue of the Nazi Party organ Der Volkische Beobachter dated April 14 1937. In the Editor's Preface to the article, President Rees is called 'the representative of the Church in Germany,' who 'paints for our readers a portrait of Mormonism today, a church which views the New Germany with sympathy and friendship.' Whether President Rees originally wrote the article in German or not, the language of the piece abounds in such loaded terms as Volk and Rasse (race), and a picture of Brigham Young bears the caption, 'Fuhrer der historischen Mormonenpioniere.' But the significance of these linguistic gaffes is magnified by hindsight. More disturbing is the way President Rees blatantly parallels Mormonism with Nazism. As Rees warms to his topic, Mormonism begins to sound like a fulfillment of Nazi teachings, providing 'the practical realization of the German ideal: "the common good takes precedence over the individual good."' Rees concluded by assuring his readers that 'Mormons are people who put this healthy doctrine into action.' Reading articles such as this, it would have been easy for a German Saint to mistakenly conclude that the seal of official Church approval had been placed on the Nazi regime."

- Alan F. Keele and Douglas F. Tobler, “The Fuhrer’s New Clothes: Helmuth Huebner and the Mormons in the Third Reich,” Sunstone, v. 5, no. 6, pp. 20-29

"[The Mormon] policy of appeasing the Nazis worked well until the war broke out. Despite the classification of Mormonism as a sect 'dangerous to the state…' according to Gestapo reports, the Church was not summarily dissolved as many others were. The missionaries remained; the Church continued. Even during the war, Mormon life was disrupted more by bombing raids, supply shortages, and travel restrictions than by official harassment. By and large, the German Saints lived through the Thousand-Year Reich much like the rest of their countrymen."

- Alan F. Keele and Douglas F. Tobler, “The Fuhrer’s New Clothes: Helmuth Huebner and the Mormons in the Third Reich,” Sunstone, v. 5, no. 6, pp. 20-29

"Some Church members even saw Hitler as God's instrument, preparing the world for the millennium."

- Alan F. Keele and Douglas F. Tobler, “The Fuhrer’s New Clothes: Helmuth Huebner and the Mormons in the Third Reich,” Sunstone, v. 5, no. 6, pp. 20-29

"Superficial parallels were drawn between the Church and the Nazi Party, with its emphasis on active involvement by every member. The women's auxiliary of the Party and the Hitler Youth were regarded by some as secular equivalents to the Church's Relief Society, MIA, and the Scouting programs."

- Alan F. Keele and Douglas F. Tobler, “The Fuhrer’s New Clothes: Helmuth Huebner and the Mormons in the Third Reich,” Sunstone, v. 5, no. 6, pp. 20-29

"The vital importance of ‘Aryan' ancestry gave new significance to genealogical research."

- Alan F. Keele and Douglas F. Tobler, “The Fuhrer’s New Clothes: Helmuth Huebner and the Mormons in the Third Reich,” Sunstone, v. 5, no. 6, pp. 20-29

"... [T]he Fuhrer himself, the non-smoking, non-drinking vegetarian who yielded to no one in his desire for absolute law and order, seemed to embody many of the most basic LDS virtues."

- Alan F. Keele and Douglas F. Tobler, “The Fuhrer’s New Clothes: Helmuth Huebner and the Mormons in the Third Reich,” Sunstone, v. 5, no. 6, pp. 20-29

It is too bad this is relegated to the telestial where no one will see it because of Droopsie's invective. This is a great post, Darth. I never knew all this. I bet the Droopster would have been right there goose-stepping with his fellow Saints if he had lived in Germany in the 1930s. I am sure he would have loved the denunciations of secular liberals and leftists and whatnot.

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 Post subject: Re: Darth J: Apologist For bigotry, Lawlessness and Genocide
PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:33 pm 
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Equality---

I posted about the LDS Church and the Third Reich's cozy relationship in Terrestrial a couple years ago. This is a copy and paste from Droopy's thread alleging, contrary to historical fact, that a person could not simultaneously be a good Nazi and a good Mormon.

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 Post subject: Re: Darth J: Apologist For bigotry, Lawlessness and Genocide
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:20 am 
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Droopy wrote:
Darth has made a clown of himself here on numerous occasions as he Google's frantically so as to make himself appear knowledgeable and expert upon things of which he has little or no comprehension.

I think this is called "projection."

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 Post subject: Re: Darth J: Apologist For bigotry, Lawlessness and Genocide
PostPosted: Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:34 am 
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Molok wrote:
Droopy wrote:
Darth has made a clown of himself here on numerous occasions as he Google's frantically so as to make himself appear knowledgeable and expert upon things of which he has little or no comprehension.

I think this is called "projection."
I have come to immediately assume that he is describing himself whenever he makes a statement about anyone else. It is a pity he uses one maladaptive defense mechanism so excessively. He really ought to expand his repertoire.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coping_(psychology)

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