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 Post subject: Re: MAGA kids are Jerks
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:42 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
honorentheos wrote:
I don't disagree he puffed up and was staring him down. First ____ post I made, man. I don't care about his subsequent comments to post hoc explain what happened. Where I disagree is with it being anything other than a kid who puffed up and didn't back down because that's how some people react in those situations. The race stuff is mind reading. Equating his choice to wear a MAGA hat with choosing to wear intentional White Nationalist symbols or Confederate Flags as a symbol of white pride is also mind reading. Because some people take it that way doesn't demand a person who supports Trump is inherently racist and choosing to wear it on their forehead.


You're aware that people who wear Confederate flag hats more often than not will claim it has nothing to do with racial symbolism and not infrequently believe that, right? They'll tell you they're just celebrating Southern heritage. Some say that cynically, but there are many people who genuinely think that. The counterargument is that it historically has been used as a symbol of racial supremacy, has its origins in that, and is used by white supremacists for that reason. You might not be a white supremacist, but you're wearing their colors, in other words. MAGA gear is very similar in that regard. It carries overt racial overtones even when people who wear it don't necessarily see it that way. You don't know if any person wearing it is a bigot, but they're wearing their colors. Because it's part of a large, active political movement, it might be easy to lose sight of that fact. Assuming the US doesn't devolve into a series of Donald Trump's as President, give it 15 years and the comparison will seem obvious in retrospect to you.

That's missing the point, though. If you ever find yourself in a situation where you're puffing up against a Native American while your peers engaging in overt racial taunting of him, and the video of it goes viral, you probably should mea culpa that one. Even if he was accidentally participating in a hate flash mob while just trying to be an ordinary dick, that's the sort of thing you say "my bad" to and try to show some contrition over. Yes, these teens were being idiots. Yes, they might not all be white nationalists or whatever. Yes, their upbringing probably helps explain why they were behaving the way they were. This doesn't excuse it in the way you seem to think it does. It's still a bad thing to do and it's not overreacting to point that out.

A confederate flag is a symbol with meaning. MAGA is campaign merch. Your entire first paragraph is an example of the extremely overreaching bananas level you take this kind of thing into mind reading and assigning the most nefarious of motives. You're overreaching badly and it does damage when large swathes of people do this. It damages the very thing you're advocating for as desirable change. You want to see racial bias like one finds in kids who would react to a Native American drumming with the tomahawk chop reduced or help them be aware of why it might be perceived negatively by someone? Your mind reading and claims in 15 years everyone who wore MAGA gear in 2019 will prove to have been on par with Confederate Flag and SS armband wearers are not in the solution space.

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 Post subject: Re: MAGA kids are Jerks
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 12:46 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
The important thing is that in every dispute, the truth is somewhere in the middle. When a white supremacist ran some people over in his car, he and his defenders claimed he was acting in self-defense. Others said he was trying to hurt people. If only people could see that it's just a matter of perspective and come to some compromise position.

The important thing in every dispute is to treat it for what it is. Or, maybe just compare it to the most extreme thing one can think of in the direction one imagines it REALLY was headed because reasons.

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 Post subject: Re: MAGA kids are Jerks
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:01 pm 
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> Be me

> Raised Catholic. Love life, God, and country.

> Wear MAGA because, well, who doesn't want to make America great?

Image

eta:

> become face of hate in America

> commit facecrime

> Double plus big oof

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 Post subject: Re: MAGA kids are Jerks
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:22 pm 
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Democratic Rep Ilhan Omar tweeted this out after the facts came out:

"The boys were protesting a woman's right to choose & yelled 'it's not rape if you enjoy it' ... They were taunting 5 Black men before they surrounded Phillips and led racist chants ... Sandmann's family hired a right wing PR firm to write his non-apology."

The Looney Left have absolutely lost touch with reality. We're talking black hole levels of ____.

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 Post subject: Re: MAGA kids are Jerks
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 1:50 pm 
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My God - What a thread!

From the OP and splattered all over the entire 16 pages. What complete nonsense!
This is truly the world we now live in - Sad! :sad:


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 Post subject: Re: MAGA kids are Jerks
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:03 pm 
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honorentheos wrote:
A confederate flag is a symbol with meaning. MAGA is campaign merch.


MAGA is a symbol with meaning. When some of those same children were shouting "MAGA" at passersby that wasn't an empty phrase to them. It carries political and social connotation. They, like most of us, know it. They wouldn't agree that it carries racial overtones, even though it does, though that exact same statement can be made about people in confederate gear usually. The difference is that *you* see confederate gear in racial terms, but don't feel the same way about the slogan that is heavily wrapped up in themes of racial supremacy.

You think it's crazy-talk to think that a political slogan of a figure whose messaging centered around white supremacist themes and racist statements, dotted his administration with actual white supremacists, pursued policy with racist themes and implications, and had copious followers who use that slogan as thinly veiled racial taunt is going to be associated in the future with racist sympathies. Ok, buddy. If it's not apparent to you now, then give it a little time.
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You're overreaching badly and it does damage when large swathes of people do this. It damages the very thing you're advocating for as desirable change.


The important thing is that we understand that the middle-ground position is always right. It makes you seem mature and thoughtful. Like how ignoring evidence that can easily confirm or deny claims insulates you from emotion and bias.


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 Post subject: Re: MAGA kids are Jerks
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 3:30 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
The important thing is that we understand that the middle-ground position is always right. It makes you seem mature and thoughtful. Like how ignoring evidence that can easily confirm or deny claims insulates you from emotion and bias.

It's not the middle ground position to argue you are projecting, EAllusion. You are projecting and mind reading. That you see this as a fallacious attempt to walk a balance between two unequal positions is telling.

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 Post subject: Re: MAGA kids are Jerks
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:19 pm 
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honorentheos wrote:
EAllusion wrote:
The important thing is that we understand that the middle-ground position is always right. It makes you seem mature and thoughtful. Like how ignoring evidence that can easily confirm or deny claims insulates you from emotion and bias.

It's not the middle ground position to argue you are projecting, EAllusion. You are projecting and mind reading. That you see this as a fallacious attempt to walk a balance between two unequal positions is telling.


Anything to the right of Noam Chomsky is a Nazi to these Loons.

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 Post subject: Re: MAGA kids are Jerks
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 5:53 pm 
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What I saw (for what it's worth)

I watched the long video that FAQS posted. It's about 1:45. It was shot by one of the Black Isrealites.

The BI preacher was set up about 20 feet or so from the bottom of the stairs up to the Lincoln Memorial. If you stand with your back to the memorial, you are facing toward a reflecting pool that starts, IDK, around 80-100 feet away. The BI preacher was set up with his back to the Memorial, facing toward the reflecting pool. Prior to Nathan Phillips entering the scene, I'd say that about 95% of his preaching was to folks between him and the pool.

The preacher was a racist, homophobic, asshole who deliberate tried to provoke everyone. Thank heavens he didn't have a mic.

For at least the first 30 minutes, the preacher was going at Native Americans who were coming from a rally at the end of their march down by the reflecting pool. For the second 30 minutes, it looks like the students start to gather on the steps of the Memorial. The preacher continues to preach at passersby who are between him and the pool. The students don't gather near the preacher -- they gather farther away up the stairs.

A little after the 1 hour mark, the preacher starts in on Catholics, perhaps having seen someone wearing a t-shirt from the school. He then shifts focus and starts preaching at the students. They respond rather quickly by drowning him out with some kind of school cheer. They do this a second time, involving one student coming down front, taking his shirt off, and assuming some kind of strong man pose.

In doing these cheers, the students have crept closer to the BI's. They start talking about "being surrounded," but that's not what I saw. It looked to me like a small crowd had heard the cheers and come over to see what was going on. Then, a bunch of students knelt down like they were having some kind of huddle, again moving closer to the BI's. That's when Phillips and the other NA's entered the scene. Phillips was playing his drum and singing. Another man was also drumming. Others were walking behind. The pace was very slow, but they moved directly between the bulk of the students and the BI's.

At this point, it looks like the huddle was to organize another cheer, because the students near the front are bouncing up and down and cheering. Phillips turns toward the steps of the Memorial, and slowly leads the small procession toward the steps. The students who had been bouncing around with the cheer segue into bouncing with the drum. Others start doing the Tomahawk chop and chanting. I saw a couple of what I thought were clearly smirky faces. But for the most part, I didn't get any cues that lead me to believe the students were acting maliciously. Had I been one of the natives, I'm pretty sure I would have felt mocked and taunted. But I find the video too ambiguous to conclude that mockery was intended.

Phillips starts moving slowly into the crowd, which parts to let him proceed to the steps, Sandmann is visible bouncing around to the beat of the drum. There is indication on his face of fear or confusion. Phillips plays the drum close to his own face. The two groups have stopped antagonizing each other, and the students are focussed on Phillips. Then, the standoff (which is not clearly shown in the video, but is shown in many others.

After the incident with Phillips, the students reengage with the BI's, crowding so close that they have to be moved back several times. They argue with, laugh at, proudly display a bottle of Trump water to the preacher. By this point, chaperones are present, but none of them try to separate the groups by moving the students higher up on the steps. The confrontation grows until the buses arrive and the students depart.

From all that I've reviewed, if I'd had a son or daughter in that crowd, we'd be having a long talk about native culture. If Sandmann were my son, I'd be embarrassed that I'd raised a kid that thought treating another human the way he did was acceptable. Sandmann saw Phillips coming well before they met face to face. He knew Phillips was leading his folks toward the Memorial. All he had to do was show common courtesy, and let the old native guy with a drum through. That's all. After watching him in the tapes, I find his PR statement utterly unbelievable. The kid acted like a dick.

There's way too much heat and not enough light around this incident. The opportunity for growth is lost to these kids. It's been snuffed out by adults who should know better.

ETA: I also think the Chaperones’ handling was very poor. They should have separated the students from the BI’s by moving them farther up the steps. The BI’s were itching for a confrontation, and a student or group could easily have been sucked into something ugly

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Last edited by Res Ipsa on Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: MAGA kids are Jerks
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:12 pm 
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Kevin Graham wrote:
https://twitter.com/lulu_says2/status/1086552871674368001?fbclid=IwAR3ygsDFGsndigSqGAaUnArp0nIbeZVlUn3SVOgwnWluC482S1ashW5_eSI

I mean what kind of abhorrent parenting was going on here to let your kids become asshole bigots at such a young age?


One should ask you that...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da1Wy4O2shc

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 Post subject: Re: MAGA kids are Jerks
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 6:59 pm 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
What I saw (for what it's worth)

I watched the long video that FAQS posted. It's about 1:45. It was shot by one of the Black Isrealites.

[SNIP!]

ETA: I also think the Chaperones’ handling was very poor. They should have separated the students from the BI’s by moving them farther up the steps. The BI’s were itching for a confrontation, and a student or group could easily have been sucked into something ugly

Look at the dangerous Chomskyite radical we have over here.


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 Post subject: Re: MAGA kids are Jerks
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:13 pm 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
Sandmann saw Phillips coming well before they met face to face. He knew Phillips was leading his folks toward the Memorial. All he had to do was show common courtesy, and let the old native guy with a drum through.

Could the old native guy have walked around him?

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 Post subject: Re: MAGA kids are Jerks
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:32 pm 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:
Sandmann saw Phillips coming well before they met face to face. He knew Phillips was leading his folks toward the Memorial. All he had to do was show common courtesy, and let the old native guy with a drum through.

Could the old native guy have walked around him?


No. Because an adult never has the responsibility to be an adult in a situation he himself created.

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 Post subject: Re: MAGA kids are Jerks
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:37 pm 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:
Sandmann saw Phillips coming well before they met face to face. He knew Phillips was leading his folks toward the Memorial. All he had to do was show common courtesy, and let the old native guy with a drum through.

Could the old native guy have walked around him?


Hey, Shades. I’ve seen folks claim he could. I’ve seen folks claim the kid moved to get in front of the old native guy. I can’t honestly tell from the video what the crowd looked like from Phillips’ POV. Once Sandmann got the stare down going, the crowd backed away from the two, so there was room to get around each other, but he’d have come up against other students crowded together real soon.

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 Post subject: Re: MAGA kids are Jerks
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:47 pm 
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Let's review what the black racists said, since the mainstream media gives less than two ____ about it (the subtle and pernicious bigotry of lowered expectations from the Left's paternalistic relationship with black Americans):

The students are called “hyenas,” “dogs,” “white crackers,” "dusty crackers" and “faggot.” They are ridiculed for being lice-ridden and told to “go back to Europe where you come from.” One man says he can tell by looking in the students’ eyes that they will be “school shooters.” They are the “product of sodomy.” That they can't stand in the sun for five minutes. We hear that black Jesus is coming back to kick the “white crackers’ ass.” Catholic Jesus is a “faggot child molester.” “Your president is a homosexual!” one man yells. And they also call other blacks in the area the n-word. They also call the Native Americans too many names to type out here. They were also the ones to yell out, "Build that wall!"

But the Loons on this board are worried about a teen's facecrime.

Goddamn they're mentally ill.

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 Post subject: Re: MAGA kids are Jerks
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 7:59 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Let's review what the black racists said, since the mainstream media gives less than two ____ about it (the subtle and pernicious bigotry of lowered expectations from the Left's paternalistic relationship with black Americans):

The students are called “hyenas,” “dogs,” “white crackers,” "dusty crackers" and “faggot.” They are ridiculed for being lice-ridden and told to “go back to Europe where you come from.” One man says he can tell by looking in the students’ eyes that they will be “school shooters.” They are the “product of sodomy.” That they can't stand in the sun for five minutes. We hear that black Jesus is coming back to kick the “white crackers’ ass.” Catholic Jesus is a “faggot child molester.” “Your president is a homosexual!” one man yells. And they also call other blacks in the area the n-word. They also call the Native Americans too many names to type out here. They were also the ones to yell out, "Build that wall!"

But the Loons on this board are worried about a teen's facecrime.

Goddamn they're mentally ill.

- Doc


“Racist, homophobic, asshole” not good enough for you? Is there some other word or magic phrase I need to recite to meet your racial purity standard? ____ maybe?

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 Post subject: Re: MAGA kids are Jerks
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:13 pm 
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Res Ipsa wrote:
“Racist, homophobic, asshole” not good enough for you? Is there some other word or magic phrase I need to recite to meet your racial purity standard? ____ maybe?


Do you consider yourself a Loon? Because I didn't until about one post ago...

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 Post subject: Re: MAGA kids are Jerks
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:25 pm 
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EAllusion wrote:
EAllusion, I don't think your responses in this thread make your case for you. So, enjoy this if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside but what I see from you is a lot of projection. Kid staring a guy down is obviously coming out of racism which we know because some other kids did the tomahawk chop in the video? Yeah. It's like Nazis or MMA fighters at the National Mall!


EAllusion wrote:

I don't know how you can say people in that picture are MMA fighters. They could just be engaging in a smile-off. There's really no way to know because apparently context clues can't help us determine what's happening with people's body language.


One give away is that the person on the left, who is not smiling, is Adrien Bonner, 3 or 4 time World Champion, and pound for pound one of the best fighters (Boxer) in the world. They don't have shirts on, and the back ground shows a person getting hit in the face...and that the smiling boxer... Eloy Perez, was knocked out by Boner and then tested positive for cocaine.

With a little home work you can find out the truth, as we did with the "MAGA" kids...

This is the video of the picture you pasted...that shows it was not a stare off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbeJxKnoK9I

Just like with the Kids, you jumped the gun without the facts.

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 Post subject: Re: MAGA kids are Jerks
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:38 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Res Ipsa wrote:
“Racist, homophobic, asshole” not good enough for you? Is there some other word or magic phrase I need to recite to meet your racial purity standard? ____ maybe?


Do you consider yourself a Loon? Because I didn't until about one post ago...

- Doc


The way you’re slinging around names, it’s hard to tell, Doc.

But I’ll tell you, the reaction to the BI’s has nothing to do with low expectations of black folks. If those school kids had been black, I’d have the same reaction as I’ve posted upthread. And if a black student had behaved towards an elderly white man the way Nick did, you’d have wall to wall coverage on Fox about black thugs.

I do have low expectations of the BIs. Not because they are black but because they are tiny group of religious nutcases. Like Westboro Baptist. Like countless bigoted street preachers. They have no power over anything, so they spend their time exercising their first amendment right to be assholes. They’ll never be president, or a Congresscritter, or a Supreme Court Justice. No power. At all. So why should I waste my time talking about a handful of assholes.

Who does get to have power? Well off kids from private schools. Like our newest Supreme Court Justice. They will have access to power. They have a shot at being Reps and governors and senators and presidents. So it’s not surprising at all that they get more attention than the five whackaloons. Nothing to do with lowered expectations base on race.

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 Post subject: Re: MAGA kids are Jerks
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:40 pm 
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Markk wrote:
EAllusion wrote:
EAllusion, I don't think your responses in this thread make your case for you. So, enjoy this if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy inside but what I see from you is a lot of projection. Kid staring a guy down is obviously coming out of racism which we know because some other kids did the tomahawk chop in the video? Yeah. It's like Nazis or MMA fighters at the National Mall!


EAllusion wrote:

I don't know how you can say people in that picture are MMA fighters. They could just be engaging in a smile-off. There's really no way to know because apparently context clues can't help us determine what's happening with people's body language.


One give away is that the person on the left, who is not smiling, is Adrien Bonner, 3 or 4 time World Champion, and pound for pound one of the best fighters (Boxer) in the world. They don't have shirts on, and the back ground shows a person getting hit in the face...and that the smiling boxer... Eloy Perez, was knocked out by Boner and then tested positive for cocaine.

With a little home work you can find out the truth, as we did with the "MAGA" kids...

This is the video of the picture you pasted...that shows it was not a stare off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbeJxKnoK9I

Just like with the Kids, you jumped the gun without the facts.


LOL. Mark, if you read the thread, you’ll find that you jumped the gun.

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 Post subject: Re: MAGA kids are Jerks
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2019 8:40 pm 
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ldsfaqs wrote:
Kevin Graham wrote:
https://twitter.com/lulu_says2/status/1086552871674368001?fbclid=IwAR3ygsDFGsndigSqGAaUnArp0nIbeZVlUn3SVOgwnWluC482S1ashW5_eSI

I mean what kind of abhorrent parenting was going on here to let your kids become asshole bigots at such a young age?


One should ask you that...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=da1Wy4O2shc

Says the guy who has gleefully posted about punching his wife.


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