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 Post subject: Response to MeDot
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 3:54 pm 
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Since I just got done giving this speech/rant in my own kitchen just a few minutes ago, I'm going to put my response to MeDot right here because it's likely going to be Prison worthy.

MeDot wrote:
Ultimately, the thing that is not disturbing is Machado's weight. She may have been overweight.

Von Clausewitz said that to win a war you have to understand its nature. Donald Trump is in a war to win the Presidency. Donald Trump is the General of that effort. He decides how to win the war, and decides where and when battles will be fought.

He is showing himself demonstrably unfit as a General, because he keeps getting lost in the minutiae of insignificant battles. He loses sight of the big picture. It is not whether of not she was overweight. It's why he is tweeting about that at 3am when he is running for President.

"HIllary is nasty, but I can be nastier", said the man who pleaded the 5th Amendment 97 times in a divorce proceeding when asked about his own marital infidelities.

Jersey Girl, I agree that there are some sleazy things about the Clintons. (Full disclosure: I voted for Bill in '92 only and have never voted for Hillary). But comparing the sleaze of the Clintons and the Trumps is hardly apples to apples. If you want to look at character and results, look at the charity work of Trump and the Clintons. Which one genuinely helped needy people, and which one served primarily as self-aggrandizement?

Newspapers that have endorsed Republicans for over a century will not endorse Donald Trump. Several have endorsed Clinton, a few Gary Johnson. The USA Today, which NEVER endorses candidates, made the unprecedented decision to say DON'T vote for Trump. This is not a normal Democrat/Republican election. This is not a Liberal/Conservative election.

Let's say that a Candidate for President of the United States is NOT afforded the presumption of innocence when it comes to their own character. And I would agree that Hillary's character has not passed muster on more than one occasion. But Trump? Charitably, once a week he gives you a character reason not to vote for him.


I disagree that comparing Trump to Clinton isn't comparing apples to apples. I think it's exactly that and the only difference between Trump and Clinton are their coping strategies.

I watched the first debate from start to finish, missing only about 5 minutes to run and get a cup of tea. What I noticed, was right out of the gate, the first person to make it personal, was Clinton.

And the entire debate process deteriorated from that point on. Instead of a presidential debate, it turned into a mud wrestling contest and that disgusts me beyond my ability to express it, but of course, I'm going to try.

I checked something the other night, just to make sure I wasn't misremembering anything. I watched a video of the Kennedy Nixon debate. There was no mudslinging whatsoever and each candidate presented themselves with dignity.

Here is what I think is wrong these days:

1. The run for the presidency has become a reality show below Kardashian level.

2. The process is being played out over social media.

3. The so-called press is sleazy as hell, in terms of "he said, she said" and not one of us knows the truth.

4. I don't trust news articles, voice recordings, photographic images or videos these days, because everything can be altered to fit whatever bias is at work.

5. The so-called debates resemble celebrity tabloid interviews because they are being moderated by persons who are unqualified to moderate a debate. We have universities all over the nation who could provide professors to moderate the debates. Why aren't we using them? Hell, a high school student could do better than what we have in place. If they can't facilitate an actual debate, then why not have TMZ come in to moderate and acknowledge what it's become?

My greatest complaint:

6. There is NO DIGNITY in the process OR the candidates.

What I am seeing across social media, news articles and videos is plainly ____. He said, she said. Trump did this, did he? Clinton did this, did she?

This race is being run on tabloid level innuendo and not candidate positions regarding the issues before us. I'm pretty sure the rest of the world is laughing it's collective ass off at us, because instead of a well respected superpower, we've now become nothing more than a global whoopee cushion.

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 Post subject: Re: Response to MeDot
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 4:28 pm 
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Well, you hit the nail on the head. And this is precisely the reason why we have an electoral college. The problem is if you had one candidate take an adult, mature, measured, and statesmanlike approach to campaigning and debates he or she would inevitably lose to either a low-brow entertainer or someone heavy on charisma and light on useful information.

I don't ascribe this to the average American being dumber these days. In fact, I tend to think the average American is much more intelligent, well-read (thanks to consuming social media/news/information), and nuanced than in days past. It's just our brains have been wired to respond to simple rhetorical devices and advertising. You have to communicate in sound bites complicated ideas and messages because we're all essentially ADD due to the nature of our society these days.

There isn't time to ruminate over a message because as soon as the message is launched and received you're immediately getting incoming again. We're all overwhelmed by a lot of noise and it's no wonder that politics is more spectacle than substance because it has to be. Why has Drumpf succeeded thus far? It's because he has communicated himself as a product, and his imagery has stuck in the collective conscience to which we simply assign value. Of course he's getting away with his nonsense. People are voting for a brand. It's Nike versus Under Armor. Coke versus Pepsi. You already know what you like, now it's just down to whether or not slick marketing can get you to try out their brand.

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: Response to MeDot
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 8:42 pm 
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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Well, you hit the nail on the head. And this is precisely the reason why we have an electoral college. The problem is if you had one candidate take an adult, mature, measured, and statesmanlike approach to campaigning and debates he or she would inevitably lose to either a low-brow entertainer or someone heavy on charisma and light on useful information.

I don't ascribe this to the average American being dumber these days. In fact, I tend to think the average American is much more intelligent, well-read (thanks to consuming social media/news/information), and nuanced than in days past. It's just our brains have been wired to respond to simple rhetorical devices and advertising. You have to communicate in sound bites complicated ideas and messages because we're all essentially ADD due to the nature of our society these days.

There isn't time to ruminate over a message because as soon as the message is launched and received you're immediately getting incoming again. We're all overwhelmed by a lot of noise and it's no wonder that politics is more spectacle than substance because it has to be. Why has Drumpf succeeded thus far? It's because he has communicated himself as a product, and his imagery has stuck in the collective conscience to which we simply assign value. Of course he's getting away with his nonsense. People are voting for a brand. It's Nike versus Under Armor. Coke versus Pepsi. You already know what you like, now it's just down to whether or not slick marketing can get you to try out their brand.

- Doc


I couldn't agree with you more about the fast pace of information and our collective ADD. Very difficult to sift through the ____ rhetoric and figure out what's fact.

From where I sit, the only fact is that it's turned into a carnival side show.

I said in my earlier posts, that I'm a registered Republican who voted for Obama, twice. I don't really align myself with one party or another. I look at these elections as if I'm hiring someone for a job and I don't care what their party affiliation is.

When I look at these two "applicants", all I can think is WTF, please send in the next two because these aren't cutting it for me.

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 Post subject: Re: Response to MeDot
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 9:08 pm 
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Well, one just has to be pragmatic at this point. We just can't have Drumpf in the White House. I can't imagine the ____ show that would be.

- Doc


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 Post subject: Re: Response to MeDot
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 9:47 pm 
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Cam,

I'd rather hire Mickey Mouse and Goofy.

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 Post subject: Re: Response to MeDot
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 10:08 pm 
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You spoke of the comparative civility of the Kennedy/Nixon debates. In 1960 there were three television networks. Nightly news was 15 minutes in black and white. People read newspapers.

Imagine that, say, two years prior to those debates, most Americans had smartphones with cameras and access to the Internet. Imagine all the taboo images, the shootings of civilians by civilians and police. All of the horrors of the Civil Rights movement, the lynchings, the beatings, the humiliating denials of equal service, documented and shared instantly. Imagine if Judith Exner, Mandy Rice-Davies or Marilyn Monroe had cell phones and instagram. Imagine all of that getting downloaded instantly to the John Birch, Ku Klux Klan, White Citizen's Council, Nation of Islam, NAACP and the Southern Christian Leadership Council websites. Crowdsourcing protests, crowdsourcing vigilante reactions to protest. People who have probably known that Kennedy bucked like a funny (I'm dyslexic), they would have known about his Addison's disease and Dr. Feelgood.

I find it impossible to believe that, with just two years of history documented the way that we now document history, those two men would have debated in the same civilized style.

We live in an era when the transmission of information from person to person is instantaneous in virtually all of the first world, most of the second world, and a good deal of the third world. We are bombarded by more viscerally upsetting images and information in a day than people would have been in weeks or months back then.

Human beings don't evolve overnight. Society is not devolving on its own. It just that the revolution of technology and information that has rapidly outpaced our psychological capacity to keep up with all of it, and handle it in intelligent ways. (I feel a Ted Talk coming on! See what I mean?) Andy Warhol said "In the future, everyone will be famous for 15 minutes." He forgot to mention that you would get to watch everyone on YouTube. More and more people screaming. More and more raw, unfiltered information. We're in the Spirit Prison Forum, an invention necessitated by members of this forum who live on Planet YouTube.

So with respect to the debates: You are correct. Clinton was the the first one to make it personal. And in the first 20 minutes or so, Trump was being a lot more effective. No doubt one of the strategies adapted by Clinton was to drop the barbs to throw him off his game. She did, and like a dog chasing a stick, he went after them. He didn't have to do it. If he hadn't, he would have been a lot better off. But the man has no personal discipline, and his ego cannot let a slight go. If he had proper debate prep, he would have had an answer ready.

You're right. As a way to choose a best President, that debate was a horrible exercise. It was the first time in American history that the wife of a President who had an impeachment trial about lying about an affair ran against a thrice married man (the Clintons attended #3) who bragged about the size of his Trump Tower in the Primary debates.

Perhaps you can say it was her fault that Trump got thrown off his game for 90 minutes on Monday, but she wasn't goading him at 3 in the morning on Friday when he was tweeting. Think of that. It's 3 in the morning. You're running for Presidency of 320 million people. This is what you're doing with your time.

And that is the GOP candidate.

Imagine Hillary Clinton Debating Mitt Romney or John McCain. I would bet there would be an entirely different dynamic. Imagine Donald Trump debating Barack Obama. Same ship, different day.

Jersey Girl wrote:
The so-called press is sleazy as hell, in terms of "he said, she said" and not one of us knows the truth.

I don't trust news articles, voice recordings, photographic images or videos these days, because everything can be altered to fit whatever bias is at work.


Is there a lot of bias in the press? Yes. Mark Twain said "figures don't lie, but liars figure". Twain himself was once fired because he "didn't like to let the truth get in the way of a good story". He said that That certainly seems to be one of the primary occupations on the internet.

When you read articles, always have your bias meter running. But to throw up your hands and say nothing is reasonably certain? There is a lot of well researched material on both candidates.

Civilization is always dying. But it is always being reborn. It's happening incredibly rapidly now. It's effing hard to keep up.

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Last edited by MeDotOrg on Sat Oct 01, 2016 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Response to MeDot
PostPosted: Sat Oct 01, 2016 10:15 pm 
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Speaking of Kennedy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nzivcv7Y8A

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=baOQ8lwgkuI

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 Post subject: Re: Response to MeDot
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:02 am 
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I'm not a member of any political party, and voted for Barrack the first time, and Jill Stein the second. :smile:


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