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 Post subject: Re: Our own rcrocket attacks Will Bagley?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 11:57 am 
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moksha wrote:
I was thinking that it would be wise for apologists to not defend something like a massacre. When one's primary purpose is to defend the Church, concomitantly defending evil that Church members have done, makes further apologetics much less credible. Sort of like they have no compass to distinguish between good and bad. Why defend the bad? A mea culpa seems much more honest, together with a reminder that this was a horrendous aberration.

Just a friendly thought...

Who defends the massacre???????




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 Post subject: Re: Our own rcrocket attacks Will Bagley?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:14 pm 
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rocket wrote:

Will's essential theme was that Brigham Young knew about the massacre before it happened and actually ordered it. In that regard, he disagreed with Juanita Brooks who concluded that Brigham Young didn't know about it in advance.


I'm not sure why this is such an issue. Historians disagree all the time on issues trivial and large. (I don't know that it is an issue or you made it one. Just noting.)

rocket wrote:
In terms of an "apology", of course, my review did not concern that. Whether the United States should apologize for slavery, or for the internment of Japanese citizens, or for the atrocity of the Mexican American war (started on a fiction), or for the atrocity of the Vietnam war (started on a fiction) or the Mormon Church apologize for the massacre, is a matter beyond my interest. Perhaps an apology is in order.


For the Mormon Church to apologize, it has to first admit culpability. Honest introspection and an ability to admit mistakes are not the hallmarks of Mormon Inc.


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 Post subject: Re: Our own rcrocket attacks Will Bagley?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:46 pm 
Daniel Peterson wrote:
moksha wrote:
I was thinking that it would be wise for apologists to not defend something like a massacre. When one's primary purpose is to defend the Church, concomitantly defending evil that Church members have done, makes further apologetics much less credible. Sort of like they have no compass to distinguish between good and bad. Why defend the bad? A mea culpa seems much more honest, together with a reminder that this was a horrendous aberration.

Just a friendly thought...

Who defends the massacre???????


I honestly haven't read any serious published apologists who have defended the massacre; however, I have, unfortunately, read some nuts who refer to themselves as apologists on MAD defend it.



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 Post subject: Re: Our own rcrocket attacks Will Bagley?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:38 pm 
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or for the atrocity of the Vietnam war (started on a fiction



Just a friendly correction to rc: the Vietnam war wasn't started on a fiction. The Vietnam war stared as early as 1947, with Viet Cong burning of villages, terrorism, subversion through propaganda and direct action, and incremental occupation of the south in rural areas.

This eventuated in a full, unprovoked incursion by the north into South Vietnam in the early sixties. The U.S. responded, first led by Kennedy, and later by LBJ, according to its previous treaty obligation with the south as those obligations and the dynamics of the Cold War as were then in play were thought to require.

There was nothing fictional about the war against the south itself, which began as soon as the Soviet puppet regime in the north had consolidated its power after the end of WWII and had the resources to support the Viet Cong and prepare the NVA for a full scale invasion.

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 Post subject: Re: Our own rcrocket attacks Will Bagley?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:43 pm 
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liz3564 wrote:
I honestly haven't read any serious published apologists who have defended the massacre; however, I have, unfortunately, read some nuts who refer to themselves as apologists on MAD defend it.

Anybody can post on a message board and say essentially anything. Such a person could even be a poseur. (There has evidently been one such over on the board formerly known as FAIR during the past few days; he has no confessed that he was adopting extreme positions in order to make actual believers look bad.)

I know of no LDS scholar and of no serious, published "apologist" who "defends" the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

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 Post subject: Re: Our own rcrocket attacks Will Bagley?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:21 pm 
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Daniel Peterson wrote:
I know of no LDS scholar and of no serious, published "apologist" who "defends" the Mountain Meadows Massacre.


Because it is indefensible. Mostly, LDS apologists defend Brigham.

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 Post subject: Re: Our own rcrocket attacks Will Bagley?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:25 pm 
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harmony wrote:
Because it is indefensible.

Of course it is.

So, does that fact make our disinclination to defend it suspect in some way?

harmony wrote:
Mostly, LDS apologists defend Brigham.

Yup. And plenty of ordinary historians, too.

Why not?

I don't think there's any real evidence implicating him in the massacre, but I think there's quite a bit exculpating him.

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 Post subject: Re: Our own rcrocket attacks Will Bagley?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2009 2:30 pm 
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Daniel Peterson wrote:
harmony wrote:
Because it is indefensible.

Of course it is.

So, does that fact make our disinclination to defend it suspect in some way?

harmony wrote:
Mostly, LDS apologists defend Brigham.

Yup. And plenty of ordinary historians, too.

Why not?

I don't think there's any real evidence implicating him in the massacre, but I think there's quite a bit exculpating him.


There is no hidden agenda in my comment, Daniel. Sometimes a comment is just a comment.

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 Post subject: Re: Our own rcrocket attacks Will Bagley?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:32 am 
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"harmony"]Mostly, LDS apologists defend Brigham.
Quote:
Quote:
DCP Yup. And plenty of ordinary historians, too.
Why not?
I don't think there's any real evidence implicating him in the massacre, but I think there's quite a bit exculpating him.


HAHAHA, real evidence? How are you going to find the real evidence? By putting Fox in charge of hen house? The records of any implicating kind are purged over and over and over.
Brigham Young never had to say "Go Kill Fencher Party", he just handed the the the golden key of slaughter to Mormon Thugs.
I agree with Mormons though, this event by no means makes uninvolved Mormons guilty by association. It is a small drop in the bucket in the course of human history, my ancestors had to live through no less than one thousand Mountain Meadows Massacre's.

DCP, you need to up your courage a notch and say "Yes local Mormons alone perpetrated that heinous crime", All those who participated; Klingens, Higbees, Dames, Nephis, should be shot on site as soon a just trial would end.

Problem is; Mormon leadership chose to protect or take no action against these Men; This act alone makes them accomplices.
Will Bagley's book was a great work of historical facts. Crocket can squirm all he wants, facts aren't going to disappear anytime soon.
Just say it DCP;
"Mormons alone perpetrated this Crime"
Say it until the world hears that apologists have hope for fairness.


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 Post subject: Re: Our own rcrocket attacks Will Bagley?
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:14 pm 
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harmony wrote:
Daniel Peterson wrote:
I know of no LDS scholar and of no serious, published "apologist" who "defends" the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

Because it is indefensible. Mostly, LDS apologists defend Brigham.


Wow Harmony,
You are a Gem sometimes.
You'd make look pale whatever Liz Taylor is wearing on her neck & fingers.


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