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 Post subject: Mormon Compartmentalization During Open Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:39 am 
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I find a trend so mind bogglingly (is that a word?) irritating that its like talking to a sociopath while he is explaining their rationale for why they do what they do, which is ironic.

In discussing mormonism with active and even some inactive members you get a sense that they are instantly on the defensive. When they present their interpretations of history and doctrine its not in a specific sense and immediately following any uncomfortable truths they accidentally spit out its immediately followed with three times as much false justification for egregious realities.

Language is framed in Christian terms with the sparse christian theology being emphasized by powers of ten, dysfunctional mormon culture is couched in glowing warm terms with accompanying justification and obvious holes in unproductive mormonism-induced behavior and an overall defensive process of staying two logical leaps ahead of the discussion play into this feeling.

It seems like this method of discourse Mormons exhibit has increased over the past few years (or I am noticing it more), with emphasis on the christian façade being maintained and heightened the past decade.

This has produced very predictable but inadequate responses to the common issues with Mormonism and has generally been a driving force behind the circling of the wagons initiated due to the overwhelming influence of the internet.

Your thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Compartmentalization During Open Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 11:44 am 
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Mercury wrote:
I find a trend so mind bogglingly (is that a word?) irritating that its like talking to a sociopath while he is explaining their rationale for why they do what they do, which is ironic.

In discussing mormonism with active and even some inactive members you get a sense that they are instantly on the defensive. When they present their interpretations of history and doctrine its not in a specific sense and immediately following any uncomfortable truths they accidentally spit out its immediately followed with three times as much false justification for egregious realities.

Language is framed in Christian terms with the sparse christian theology being emphasized by powers of ten, dysfunctional mormon culture is couched in glowing warm terms with accompanying justification and obvious holes in unproductive mormonism-induced behavior and an overall defensive process of staying two logical leaps ahead of the discussion play into this feeling.

It seems like this method of discourse Mormons exhibit has increased over the past few years (or I am noticing it more), with emphasis on the christian façade being maintained and heightened the past decade.

This has produced very predictable but inadequate responses to the common issues with Mormonism and has generally been a driving force behind the circling of the wagons initiated due to the overwhelming influence of the internet.

Your thoughts?


Are you talking in terms of Sunday School? the foyer on Sunday morning? visits from the bishopric? Or on the internet?

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Compartmentalization During Open Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:37 pm 
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Mercury wrote:
In discussing mormonism with active and even some inactive members you get a sense that they are instantly on the defensive.

I've often noticed this, and always chalked it up to the person have an unconscious/semi-conscious awareness of how embarrassing mormon belief really is. Who can blame them? I know that's exactly how I reacted to someone asking me about my religion while growing up in it. (Now it's just a "fun fact" about my past that I sometimes muse over with others.)

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Compartmentalization During Open Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:45 pm 
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Mormons only hear what they want to hear. Anyone else is a "secular anti-mormon".

Mormons expect everyone to agree with them. If you don't, they get upset.

Why even bother talking with them? Leave them to their cult.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Compartmentalization During Open Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:11 pm 
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I have noticed they have hijacked, stolen or what ever you want to call it, a bunch of words and concepts, polished them and presented them as their eternal truths that only they can know -

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Compartmentalization During Open Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:39 pm 
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karl61 wrote:
I have noticed they have hijacked, stolen or what ever you want to call it, a bunch of words and concepts, polished them and presented them as their eternal truths that only they can know -


Oh... you mean like endowment, recommend, calling and election, primary, mutual, relief, and/or seventy?

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Compartmentalization During Open Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:42 pm 
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harmony wrote:
karl61 wrote:
I have noticed they have hijacked, stolen or what ever you want to call it, a bunch of words and concepts, polished them and presented them as their eternal truths that only they can know -


Oh... you mean like endowment, recommend, calling and election, primary, mutual, relief, and/or seventy?


Wow, You're still here? Imagine that.

(Merc stares at another poster and continues the conversation)

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Compartmentalization During Open Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 2:47 pm 
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Mercury wrote:
Wow, You're still here? Imagine that.

(Merc stares at another poster and continues the conversation)


Oh c'mon, merc! You can do better than that! What a wimpy effort. Geez, even William did better than that. You're losing your touch. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Compartmentalization During Open Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:00 pm 
Interesting OP, Merc.

I noticed that when Romney was running for President, he was desperate to bring out the similarities between LDS and mainstream Christians.

The way that many directives were given by President Hinckley seemed to be an effort to tie the Church in more closely with mainstream Christianity. I think that the changes to the temple ceremony were part of this movement.

To be honest, as an active LDS, I find the changes comforting because they fall closer in line with my personal beliefs.


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Compartmentalization During Open Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 3:13 pm 
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liz3564 wrote:
Interesting OP, Merc.

I noticed that when Romney was running for President, he was desperate to bring out the similarities between LDS and mainstream Christians.

The way that many directives were given by President Hinckley seemed to be an effort to tie the Church in more closely with mainstream Christianity. I think that the changes to the temple ceremony were part of this movement.

To be honest, as an active LDS, I find the changes comforting because they fall closer in line with my personal beliefs.


Liz, if you were born as little qas 50 years ago you would have been ostracised for believing in a more Christian viewpoint.

This being said, yes. LDS Inc is a chameleon that shifts its public image according to whatever feels mainstream.

Its like the kid who shows up to a party and strangely shares the same interests as everyone they talk to but when pressed for details its glaringly obvious all they are trying to do is make friends through lying and come off as a squinty eyed social cripple.

Not you Liz, the mouth breathers that hang on to the backwoods folk magic mixed with what they want to call Christianity are becoming scarcer each day as the dillution of "Mormon Doctrine" continues. From an anthropological perspective its kind of like seeing a language die.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Compartmentalization During Open Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 4:25 pm 
Merc wrote:
..the mouth breathers that hang on to the backwoods folk magic mixed with what they want to call Christianity are becoming scarcer each day as the dillution of "Mormon Doctrine" continues.


Are there really that many of the hard-liners around? Maybe it's just where I'm located, but I sense that more active LDS folks are becoming more "middle of the road", so to speak. For example, I would say that 90% of the women in my Ward work full-time. They were actually quite relieved when Homemaking Night went to a once every three month activity instead of once a month. Basically, no one had time to attend.

Among the workshops we have held for Homemaking Night, we have had computer classes, resume building classes, and workshops for the youth (both young men and young women) on SAT and ACT testing skills. Education is highly valued and emphasized in the youth meetings.

My father in law recently taught a workshop on addictions in a very non-judgmental fashion.

It seems like, at least the modern Church, is doing more to recognize the realities of the age we live in, and I, for one, applaud these changes.

I believe in Jesus Christ, and enjoy worshiping him. For me, it makes little difference which Church this happens in, but if it can happen in a place where it is a comfort zone for me, personally, from a family perspective, then I will not apologize for that. There are old-style doctrinal points I staunchly disagree with, such as polygamy. I also have questions about the Plan of Salvation, but have gained some interesting insights, thanks to Dr. Peterson, my father in law, and also from my own scripture study. So, for me, I am comfortable being an active LDS, and voicing my questions and concerns on forums such as this one.(with the blessing of my family, I might add. They know I post here.)


Merc wrote:
From an anthropological perspective its kind of like seeing a language die.


Hmmm....I see a slightly different analogy. Maybe it's more of an evolution of language. After all, look at the English language. It is a "melting pot" of other languages. You will find elements of French, Spanish, Italian, German, Latin, etc. Perhaps Mormonism is evolving, much like the English language has evolved.

Just food for thought. :wink:

Remember, Merc, you opened this door....LOL Great topic! :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Compartmentalization During Open Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:49 pm 
Mercury wrote:


In discussing mormonism with active and even some inactive members you get a sense that they are instantly on the defensive. When they present their interpretations of history and doctrine its not in a specific sense and immediately following any uncomfortable truths they accidentally spit out its immediately followed with three times as much false justification for egregious realities.


My impression is that there is a lot of dishonesty taught by this religion. I find in general Mormons use excessive rhetorical games in discussion which show dishonesty. If individuals really believe something, there is no necessity to play such games. I see it in the way DCP discusses, Bob, Harmony, and what I observed when I was on the MAD board and the few times I've read it since.

And my impression is also that those who leave, become much more honest.

Now my impression may be skewed because of the limited number of people I've interacted with, but that is my impression and I've been observing the Mormon/exmormon community over about a 10 year period. If I summed up Mormonism with one word descriptions, the first that comes to mind is "dishonesty".


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Compartmentalization During Open Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 7:57 pm 
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Mormons are modern gypsies

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Compartmentalization During Open Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:21 pm 
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harmony wrote:
Are you talking in terms of Sunday School? the foyer on Sunday morning? visits from the bishopric? Or on the internet?


Wow, I just realized something. This is Art Imitating Life, right here.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Compartmentalization During Open Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:23 pm 
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karl61 wrote:
Mormons are modern gypsies


Dude! I'm actually writing a short story along those lines!

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Compartmentalization During Open Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:25 pm 
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Quote:
The way that many directives were given by President Hinckley seemed to be an effort to tie the Church in more closely with mainstream Christianity. I think that the changes to the temple ceremony were part of this movement.


The notion that we can gain more converts and favor with the rest of Christianity by finding similarities died about a decade ago. It still persists among the membership unfortunately.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Compartmentalization During Open Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:39 pm 
bcspace wrote:
Quote:
The way that many directives were given by President Hinckley seemed to be an effort to tie the Church in more closely with mainstream Christianity. I think that the changes to the temple ceremony were part of this movement.


The notion that we can gain more converts and favor with the rest of Christianity by finding similarities died about a decade ago. It still persists among the membership unfortunately.


And why do you think that is? Maybe a survey being given to selected members about what they would like to see changed regarding the temple ceremony, and then accommodating changes made reflecting those surveys might have something to do with it?


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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Compartmentalization During Open Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 9:43 pm 
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Mercury wrote:
karl61 wrote:
Mormons are modern gypsies


Dude! I'm actually writing a short story along those lines!


I get fifteen percent.

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 Post subject: Re: Mormon Compartmentalization During Open Discussion
PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 10:38 pm 
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bcspace wrote:
Quote:
The way that many directives were given by President Hinckley seemed to be an effort to tie the Church in more closely with mainstream Christianity. I think that the changes to the temple ceremony were part of this movement.


The notion that we can gain more converts and favor with the rest of Christianity by finding similarities died about a decade ago. It still persists among the membership unfortunately.


So Populism is the rule of the day in Mormon Doctrine and self-identification?

Ya Don't Say!

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