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If Gov. Romney wins the Presidency, which oaths will he fulfill?
Temple Oaths  54%  [ 7 ]
Presidential Oaths  46%  [ 6 ]
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 Post subject: If Romney wins the Presidency, which oath will come first?
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:57 pm 
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With the recent political debate, I thought a poll was in order.

Note: This is assuming that Romney would win the Presidency. Personally I think his chances are slim.

I also vote for Presidential oaths. Realistically Romney has to realize that he has to take his presidential oaths first. People (the vast vast majority of which are not Mormon) are voting for a President, not a preacher. I think at the end of the campaign he'll realize his constituency are all the Americans, not just the Mormons.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:31 pm 
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Note: This is assuming that Romney would win the Presidency. Personally I think his chances are slim.

I also vote for Presidential oaths. Realistically Romney has to realize that he has to take his presidential oaths first. People (the vast vast majority of which are not Mormon) are voting for a President, not a preacher. I think at the end of the campaign he'll realize his constituency are all the Americans, not just the Mormons.



I find it absolutely incredible that Romney is going to go through the same three ring circus JFK went through forty years ago because of his Catholicism. What is not at all shocking is that almost all of this tempest in a teapot is coming from the secular Left, as is most of the renewed anti-semitism here and in Europe.

When will some of us start to grow up?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:37 pm 
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Coggins7 wrote:
Quote:
Note: This is assuming that Romney would win the Presidency. Personally I think his chances are slim.

I also vote for Presidential oaths. Realistically Romney has to realize that he has to take his presidential oaths first. People (the vast vast majority of which are not Mormon) are voting for a President, not a preacher. I think at the end of the campaign he'll realize his constituency are all the Americans, not just the Mormons.



I find it absolutely incredible that Romney is going to go through the same three ring circus JFK went through forty years ago because of his Catholicism. What is not at all shocking is that almost all of this tempest in a teapot is coming from the secular Left, as is most of the renewed anti-semitism here and in Europe.

When will some of us start to grow up?


When people realize that separation of church and state means separating state and church. However I don't think it's possible to separate a person's religious identity with their decison making identity on some issues. So it will be a continual issue.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:52 pm 
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When people realize that separation of church and state means separating state and church. However I don't think it's possible to separate a person's religious identity with their decison making identity on some issues. So it will be a continual issue.



Well, since there is no such principle as "separation of church and state" in the constitution, then the origin of the principles upon which a politician makes judgements and critiques political ideologies and policies has no relevance to his fitness to serve in public office.

The separation of a person's religious identity, or lack of it, from political descision making is not a relevant issue at all, which is why the founders made no mention of it in the constitution nor made any law regarding it. If you would do some study of the writings of the founders of this country, especially those who had a direct hand in the conceiving and writing of the constitution, you will find that the majority, if not all of them, felt that religious belief and committment was, in point of fact, indispensable to the qualites of an office holding politician.

Where did you get this idea of "separation of church and state" from? Oh, I know. The Supreme Court...

Silly me. And I thought the constitution was the supreme law of the land.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 6:57 pm 
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My view of Romney is that he is very politically savvy and would cater more to the evangelical religious right of his party than the LDS Church. That said, he still has the wrong politics for me.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 7:00 pm 
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Coggins7 wrote:
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When people realize that separation of church and state means separating state and church. However I don't think it's possible to separate a person's religious identity with their decison making identity on some issues. So it will be a continual issue.



Well, since there is no such principle as "separation of church and state" in the constitution, then the origin of the principles upon which a politician makes judgements and critiques political ideologies and policies has no relevance to his fitness to serve in public office.

The separation of a person's religious identity, or lack of it, from political descision making is not a relevant issue at all, which is why the founders made no mention of it in the constitution nor made any law regarding it. If you would do some study of the writings of the founders of this country, especially those who had a direct hand in the conceiving and writing of the constitution, you will find that the majority, if not all of them, felt that religious belief and committment was, in point of fact, indispensable to the qualites of an office holding politician.

Where did you get this idea of "separation of church and state" from? Oh, I know. The Supreme Court...

Silly me. And I thought the constitution was the supreme law of the land.


I'm assuming you're a very strict Constructionist ;)

No "separation of church and state" isn't in the Constitution, it was in a letter from Jefferson to somebody. But the 1st Amendment to the Constitution provides freedom of religion and freedom of speech. It also provides the Establishment Clause, saying that the govt cannot favor a religion over others, create a specific state religion, or discriminate against a religion. I think those rules help fill in the idea of separating the state from any church (at least officially). Of course the people that run govt have usually been religious people so....there we are.

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 Post subject: Re: If Romney wins the Presidency, which oath will come firs
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:10 pm 
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Bond...James Bond wrote:
Realistically Romney has to realize that he has to take his presidential oaths first. . . I think at the end of the campaign he'll realize his constituency are all the Americans, not just the Mormons.


Don't you think Romney already realizes both these things?

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 Post subject: Re: If Romney wins the Presidency, which oath will come firs
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:14 pm 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
Bond...James Bond wrote:
Realistically Romney has to realize that he has to take his presidential oaths first. . . I think at the end of the campaign he'll realize his constituency are all the Americans, not just the Mormons.


Don't you think Romney already realizes both these things?


What I think is interesting is where he went to get his war chest started: LDS church leaders.


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 Post subject: Re: If Romney wins the Presidency, which oath will come firs
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:30 pm 
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Bond...James Bond wrote:
With the recent political debate, I thought a poll was in order.

Note: This is assuming that Romney would win the Presidency. Personally I think his chances are slim.

I also vote for Presidential oaths. Realistically Romney has to realize that he has to take his presidential oaths first. People (the vast vast majority of which are not Mormon) are voting for a President, not a preacher. I think at the end of the campaign he'll realize his constituency are all the Americans, not just the Mormons.


Of course this presumes the fallacious assumption that the two will ever or even do conflict. The covenant of consecration as I think through it does not cause any case for anyone to choose between the two.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:33 pm 
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Coggins7 wrote:
Quote:
Note: This is assuming that Romney would win the Presidency. Personally I think his chances are slim.

I also vote for Presidential oaths. Realistically Romney has to realize that he has to take his presidential oaths first. People (the vast vast majority of which are not Mormon) are voting for a President, not a preacher. I think at the end of the campaign he'll realize his constituency are all the Americans, not just the Mormons.



I find it absolutely incredible that Romney is going to go through the same three ring circus JFK went through forty years ago because of his Catholicism. What is not at all shocking is that almost all of this tempest in a teapot is coming from the secular Left, as is most of the renewed anti-semitism here and in Europe.

When will some of us start to grow up?


I have to agree with Coggins. The amzing thing that was pointed out on FOX news tonight that is seem that it is not the conservatives who are so upset about his religion, but the left. I do not recall the publication referred to but it was a left wing rag that railed on Romney for being a Mormon and how awful that is as well as how it should prohibit his election. The left really is not tolerant at all though they like to pretent to be.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 9:45 pm 
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Jason Bourne wrote:
Coggins7 wrote:
Quote:
Note: This is assuming that Romney would win the Presidency. Personally I think his chances are slim.

I also vote for Presidential oaths. Realistically Romney has to realize that he has to take his presidential oaths first. People (the vast vast majority of which are not Mormon) are voting for a President, not a preacher. I think at the end of the campaign he'll realize his constituency are all the Americans, not just the Mormons.



I find it absolutely incredible that Romney is going to go through the same three ring circus JFK went through forty years ago because of his Catholicism. What is not at all shocking is that almost all of this tempest in a teapot is coming from the secular Left, as is most of the renewed anti-semitism here and in Europe.

When will some of us start to grow up?


I have to agree with Coggins. The amzing thing that was pointed out on FOX news tonight that is seem that it is not the conservatives who are so upset about his religion, but the left. I do not recall the publication referred to but it was a left wing rag that railed on Romney for being a Mormon and how awful that is as well as how it should prohibit his election. The left really is not tolerant at all though they like to pretent to be.


Prohibit? Did it really say "prohibit"?


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:03 pm 
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Coggins7 wrote:
Quote:
Note: This is assuming that Romney would win the Presidency. Personally I think his chances are slim.

I also vote for Presidential oaths. Realistically Romney has to realize that he has to take his presidential oaths first. People (the vast vast majority of which are not Mormon) are voting for a President, not a preacher. I think at the end of the campaign he'll realize his constituency are all the Americans, not just the Mormons.



I find it absolutely incredible that Romney is going to go through the same three ring circus JFK went through forty years ago because of his Catholicism. What is not at all shocking is that almost all of this tempest in a teapot is coming from the secular Left, as is most of the renewed anti-semitism here and in Europe.

When will some of us start to grow up?


Comparing catholicism to Mormonism is laughable. Mormonism is an NRM started by a criminal. Christianity was an NRM started by a criminal 2000 years ago.

Mormonism is not catholicism and anyone who tries to make the comparrison is probably Mormon. Anyone else is uninformed or in the pocket of romneys camp.

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 Post subject: Re: If Romney wins the Presidency, which oath will come firs
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:04 pm 
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Dr. Shades wrote:
Bond...James Bond wrote:
Realistically Romney has to realize that he has to take his presidential oaths first. . . I think at the end of the campaign he'll realize his constituency are all the Americans, not just the Mormons.


Don't you think Romney already realizes both these things?


After all his years in politics? Yes. I'm sure it will be hammered home if his campaign goes very far.


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 Post subject: Re: If Romney wins the Presidency, which oath will come firs
PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:05 pm 
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Jason Bourne wrote:
Bond...James Bond wrote:
With the recent political debate, I thought a poll was in order.

Note: This is assuming that Romney would win the Presidency. Personally I think his chances are slim.

I also vote for Presidential oaths. Realistically Romney has to realize that he has to take his presidential oaths first. People (the vast vast majority of which are not Mormon) are voting for a President, not a preacher. I think at the end of the campaign he'll realize his constituency are all the Americans, not just the Mormons.


Of course this presumes the fallacious assumption that the two will ever or even do conflict. The covenant of consecration as I think through it does not cause any case for anyone to choose between the two.


I should have added a "no conflict in oaths" choice. I tried to actually, but the thing can't be changed. Sorry.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 10:08 pm 
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Jason Bourne wrote:
Coggins7 wrote:
Quote:
Note: This is assuming that Romney would win the Presidency. Personally I think his chances are slim.

I also vote for Presidential oaths. Realistically Romney has to realize that he has to take his presidential oaths first. People (the vast vast majority of which are not Mormon) are voting for a President, not a preacher. I think at the end of the campaign he'll realize his constituency are all the Americans, not just the Mormons.



I find it absolutely incredible that Romney is going to go through the same three ring circus JFK went through forty years ago because of his Catholicism. What is not at all shocking is that almost all of this tempest in a teapot is coming from the secular Left, as is most of the renewed anti-semitism here and in Europe.

When will some of us start to grow up?


I have to agree with Coggins. The amzing thing that was pointed out on FOX news tonight that is seem that it is not the conservatives who are so upset about his religion, but the left. I do not recall the publication referred to but it was a left wing rag that railed on Romney for being a Mormon and how awful that is as well as how it should prohibit his election. The left really is not tolerant at all though they like to pretent to be.


The Left is probably scared of him because he's more conservative than McCain or Guiliani (stake president?). If he was a Methodist or something he would be in great shape to unite the conservative parts of the Republican party. As it is, who knows? But he is a very slick good looking charismatic guy, and that takes you a long way in politics.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:21 am 
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VegasRefugee wrote:
Coggins7 wrote:
Quote:
Note: This is assuming that Romney would win the Presidency. Personally I think his chances are slim.

I also vote for Presidential oaths. Realistically Romney has to realize that he has to take his presidential oaths first. People (the vast vast majority of which are not Mormon) are voting for a President, not a preacher. I think at the end of the campaign he'll realize his constituency are all the Americans, not just the Mormons.



I find it absolutely incredible that Romney is going to go through the same three ring circus JFK went through forty years ago because of his Catholicism. What is not at all shocking is that almost all of this tempest in a teapot is coming from the secular Left, as is most of the renewed anti-semitism here and in Europe.

When will some of us start to grow up?


Comparing catholicism to Mormonism is laughable. Mormonism is an NRM started by a criminal. Christianity was an NRM started by a criminal 2000 years ago.

Mormonism is not catholicism and anyone who tries to make the comparrison is probably Mormon. Anyone else is uninformed or in the pocket of romneys camp.


One big difference is that Catholics don't make oaths in secret cermonies wearing robes, aprons, and baker's hats to sacrfice everything for the [Mormon] Church.

That said, I doubt seriously this silly oath even enters Romney's mind, and I doubt it enters many a good believer's mind. Only the real fanatic takes this that seriously, and Romney gives no evidence that he's a fanatic.

As for the comment that one's religious beliefs are irrlevant to fitness to serve as President, that's ridiculous on its face. Even Coggins/Plutarch would probably abstain from voting for some Evangelical with religiously inspired apocalyptic beliefs and who claims to take his marching orders directly from God, which whom he's all chummy. I don't trust a religious fanatic in public office, and neither, rightly, do many people, and I would not vote for one, and neither rightly would many people. But Romney is no religious fanatic.

I think more relevant for Romney, and a more valid criticism, is why he is a member of an institution that is both sexist and homophobic and until recently, racist, but which still has racist doctrines in its scriptures. Any other candidate who belonged to a secular organization with such policies would face serious questions, and I see no reason to excuse religious organizations from the same scrutiny. Just because, presumably, God says its ok to be sexist, homophobic, and racist, doesn't shield it from public scrutiny. I'd like to see the press grill Romney on these issues.

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 Post subject: Re: If Romney wins the Presidency, which oath will come firs
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:59 am 
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Jason Bourne

Quote:
Of course this presumes the fallacious assumption that the two will ever or even do conflict.



Is that sorta like whats good for General Motors is good for the country?? Only in this case its whats good for LDS Inc. is good for the country??


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:39 am 
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Don't temple going members promise to give virutally everything they have and will have to the building up of the church?

I could see a problem with a President of the United States being bound by this.

~dancer~


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 Post subject: Re: If Romney wins the Presidency, which oath will come firs
PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:43 am 
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harmony wrote:
Dr. Shades wrote:
Bond...James Bond wrote:
Realistically Romney has to realize that he has to take his presidential oaths first. . . I think at the end of the campaign he'll realize his constituency are all the Americans, not just the Mormons.


Don't you think Romney already realizes both these things?


What I think is interesting is where he went to get his war chest started: LDS church leaders.


He did?

I don't think so. he already had money when that other fiasco got started.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:44 am 
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harmony wrote:
Jason Bourne wrote:
Coggins7 wrote:
Quote:
Note: This is assuming that Romney would win the Presidency. Personally I think his chances are slim.

I also vote for Presidential oaths. Realistically Romney has to realize that he has to take his presidential oaths first. People (the vast vast majority of which are not Mormon) are voting for a President, not a preacher. I think at the end of the campaign he'll realize his constituency are all the Americans, not just the Mormons.



I find it absolutely incredible that Romney is going to go through the same three ring circus JFK went through forty years ago because of his Catholicism. What is not at all shocking is that almost all of this tempest in a teapot is coming from the secular Left, as is most of the renewed anti-semitism here and in Europe.

When will some of us start to grow up?


I have to agree with Coggins. The amzing thing that was pointed out on FOX news tonight that is seem that it is not the conservatives who are so upset about his religion, but the left. I do not recall the publication referred to but it was a left wing rag that railed on Romney for being a Mormon and how awful that is as well as how it should prohibit his election. The left really is not tolerant at all though they like to pretent to be.


Prohibit? Did it really say "prohibit"?


I cannot attest to those exact words but that was the gist of it. His strange religous beliefs, in these liberals views, were enough to make him not eligible for the high office.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:46 am 
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I wonder if he'll go to the temple while he's president (IF he's president). I guess he'd have to have some Mormon secret service agents to accompany him. I also wonder if they'll be allowed to bring their guns in with them.

just thinking out loud here...

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