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 Post subject: Truth of the Book of Abraham Part 1 (Video by Dan Vogel)
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:30 pm 
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AtJT_xjIgdM

Description by Vogel:

Quote:
In this video I discuss Joseph Smith’s procurement of Egyptian papyri and mummies in July 1835 and explore the documents he produced while “translating” what he called the Book of Abraham. I also deal with the attempts of Mormon apologists to extricate Joseph Smith from clear evidence that he could not translate Egyptian.

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Last edited by grindael on Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Truth of the Book of Abraham Pt. 1 (Video by Dan Vogel)
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:34 pm 
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Thanks, Dan. This video was very informative and the graphics made it very easy to understand the Kirtland Egyptian Papers and that Joseph dictated to his scribes the text of the Book of Abraham, and that the apologist theory of a lost earlier manuscript that they must have copied from is false. Looking forward to Pt. 2!

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can change your direction:
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may alter your perception.


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 Post subject: Re: Truth of the Book of Abraham Part 1 (Video by Dan Vogel)
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:04 pm 
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I can't wait to watch this!

Dan, would you take a few minutes and cast your vote (1-10) on the missing jackal head, please? It's something you need to contemplate as you work on understanding Joseph Smith's methods and motives in handling the papyrus.

Thanks!

BOOK OF ABRAHAM FACSIMILE NO. 3​​ WEBSITE

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 Post subject: Re: Truth of the Book of Abraham patient. 1 (Video by Dan Vo
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:19 pm 
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grindael wrote:
Thanks, Dan. This video was very informative and the graphics made it very easy to understand the Kirtland Egyptian Papers and that Joseph dictated to his scribes the text of the Book of Abraham, and that the apologist theory of a lost earlier manuscript that they must have copied from is false. Looking forward to Pt. 2!

Thanks for posting this.

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 Post subject: Re: Truth of the Book of Abraham Part 1 (Video by Dan Vogel)
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:12 pm 
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Have you seen Smoot, the new kid on the block studying for his Ph.D. at University of Toronto review of Gee's book in the Interpreter?

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 Post subject: Re: Truth of the Book of Abraham Part 1 (Video by Dan Vogel)
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 7:25 pm 
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Bravo!

I enjoyed the presentation very much. Very clear and concise and pleasantly presented. You've demonstrated that the text and the characters are inseparably connected in the minds of the scribes who translated. It destroys the apologist's "Reverse Translation Theory". All this stirs up a lot of memory when I was carefully studying these matters many years ago. One of these is found here:

Part I, Translating the Grammar; Step by Step -- (Analysis of how the characters correspond with the writing)

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 Post subject: Re: Truth of the Book of Abraham Part 1 (Video by Dan Vogel)
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 6:46 am 
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aussieguy55 wrote:
Have you seen Smoot, the new kid on the block studying for his Ph.D. at University of Toronto review of Gee's book in the Interpreter?

Is there a link?

Steve Smoot with someday inherit the mantle from Dr. Peterson, and no doubt several witnesses will step forward and attest to Steve taking on the countenance of Dr. Peterson.

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 Post subject: Re: Truth of the Book of Abraham Part 1 (Video by Dan Vogel)
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 7:24 pm 
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https://www.mormoninterpreter.com/press ... f-abraham/

Some on youtube said "I know a bit about Smoot. He is a Masters student and too immature to offer anything substantial to Mormon studies. He is a Dan Peterson disciple, including petulent and condescending behavior to those he disagrees with. Not worth getting tied up about, or giving credit to."

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 Post subject: Re: Truth of the Book of Abraham Part 1 (Video by Dan Vogel)
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2018 8:23 pm 
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moksha wrote:
Steve Smoot with someday inherit the mantle from Dr. Peterson, and no doubt several witnesses will step forward and attest to Steve taking on the countenance of Dr. Peterson.


Just as the mantle of Walters the Magician passed to Young Joe Smith.


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 Post subject: Re: Truth of the Book of Abraham Part 1 (Video by Dan Vogel)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:06 am 
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moksha wrote:
aussieguy55 wrote:
Have you seen Smoot, the new kid on the block studying for his Ph.D. at University of Toronto review of Gee's book in the Interpreter?

Is there a link?

Steve Smoot with someday inherit the mantle from Dr. Peterson, and no doubt several witnesses will step forward and attest to Steve taking on the countenance of Dr. Peterson.


Warrior after warrior climbed the rocky slope to fight the giant. Sword and spear broke on its solid coverings that loomed over their heads, casting shadows down the mountain. A curious red-headed child enjoyed climbing and followed one day. Tapping a knuckle on the gigantic form above, that had proven unworthy generations of warriors, she observed, "Why, it's just a big rock."

Nobody listened, though. The warriors kept training and huffing up the mountain. Surely, whomever conquered the giant would install for themselves a legacy that time would never forget! "If I could only best the giant!" they dreamed.


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 Post subject: Re: Truth of the Book of Abraham Part 1 (Video by Dan Vogel)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:06 am 
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The Kirtland Egyptian Papers are not faith promoting and offer no value to the church whatsoever in demonstrating Joseph Smith's ability to translate and interpret the ancient Egyptian language. That's why the church has hidden those papers up for so many years because they prove to be nothing more than embarrassment to the church and stir up questions the General Authorities refuse to answer. All of the General Authorities have gagged themselves from discussing these matters since the originally papyrus was returned to the church in the 1960's. It all turned out to be a big disappointment for the church and so the policy was to avoid it and not talk about it and just let the problem go away on its own.

But then came the Internet. Thus we see that the Internet and freedom of information and communication has become the cult's worst enemy. It's the availability of information that is ultimately taking down the church, piece by piece and exposing the ugly history and false claims of Mormonism -- warts and all. It's time that the leaders of the church (not BYU school teachers) start discussing the implications of what the Kirtland Egyptian Papers really imply. It's time that the prophets and apostles stand up and be counted.

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Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I


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 Post subject: Re: Truth of the Book of Abraham Part 1 (Video by Dan Vogel)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:27 am 
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Dan mentioned in his presentation that apologists attempt to toss the blame on the scribes who were the associates of Joseph Smith in translating the Book of Abraham. Hence, the apologists in effect are confessing that there is blame to be assigned but rather than assign that blame on the President of the Church they will blame it on those who serve the President. The apologists want to separate the President from his Counselors -- hence, put Smith in one room isolated all by himself where he can translate all by his lonesome and then put his associates in another room where they can make fools of themselves trying to translate what the President had previously translated.

Think about that. The attempt to separate Smith from his scribes is DOA. It doesn't work. It is totally illogical and goes against everything we know about what actually happened based on what the people involved actually said. It's a desperate and dishonest apologetic approach to rescue one's personal testimony that the Book of Abraham is true.

I bear testimony, based on the evidence which is conclusive, the Book of Abraham and the Explanations of the Facsimiles are utter fabrications made up by Joseph Smith just like he made up the Book of Moses out of his own head.

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 Post subject: Re: Truth of the Book of Abraham Part 1 (Video by Dan Vogel)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:49 am 
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Where was the guidance of the divine HOLY GHOST? Apologists recognize and admit that the Kirtland Egyptian Papers yield no signs that the work was given under inspiration of the Spirit. Nothing doing. Those men were working in the dark under the direction of their own misled minds -- nothing divine or supernatural was at play. It's a sure sign that the Holy Ghost was out to lunch while those involved in the original production of the Book of Abraham were dreaming up and fabricating all kinds of nonsense -- cooking the books.

To the apologists: Joseph Smith was the captain of the Mormon ship. He along stands responsible for the entire church. His men ran afoul and didn't know what they were doing, like mice in a cage running on wheels that go no where. When the cat's away the rats play. From everything I see about the Kirtland Egyptian Papers it's abundantly evident that the cat and rats are guilty of fraud.

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 Post subject: Re: Truth of the Book of Abraham Part 1 (Video by Dan Vogel)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:59 am 
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Shulem wrote:
Where was the guidance of the divine HOLY GHOST? Apologists recognize and admit that the Kirtland Egyptian Papers yield no signs that the work was given under inspiration of the Spirit. Nothing doing. Those men were working in the dark under the direction of their own misled minds -- nothing divine or supernatural was at play. It's a sure sign that the Holy Ghost was out to lunch while those involved in the original production of the Book of Abraham were dreaming up and fabricating all kinds of nonsense -- cooking the books.

To the apologists: Joseph Smith was the captain of the Mormon ship. He along stands responsible for the entire church. His men ran afoul and didn't know what they were doing, like mice in a cage running on wheels that go no where. When the cat's away the rats play. From everything I see about the Kirtland Egyptian Papers it's abundantly evident that the cat and rats are guilty of fraud.


Oh, nothing to see here because [insert apologetic]. See, BofA still inspired. [Blame the scribes for facsimile errors and everything else]. So just keep paying those generous tithes and offerings. Doubts will be resolved some day, probably in 500 years or so, but they will be resolved .......

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 Post subject: Re: Truth of the Book of Abraham Part 1 (Video by Dan Vogel)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:59 am 
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Exiled wrote:
Oh, nothing to see here because [insert apologetic]


Who was Hugh Nibley? He's just a dead school teacher who used to work for Brigham Young University. He's nothing at all. He wasn't an apostle. He wasn't a prophet. He didn't represent The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on an official basis in any form or fashion when it comes to interpreting doctrine and revelation.

The same goes for John Gee. He's nothing. He's a school teacher who works at a church owned university. He doesn't represent The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in any kind of official basis when it comes to representing the doctrine of the church or the mysteries of the Joseph Smith papyrus. John Gee is nothing but a stooge. He doesn't represent the position of the First Presidency & Quorum of the Twelve when it comes to the Book of Abraham translation and neither does he claim too. He is nothing but a loud mouthed school teacher with his own warped opinions, period.

Who is Daniel C Peterson? He's a school teacher, nothing more. He's a sorry man who has lived a lie and he knows it. He knows that the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 are total lies. He knows it.

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 Post subject: Re: Truth of the Book of Abraham Part 1 (Video by Dan Vogel)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:30 pm 
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moksha wrote:
Steve Smoot with someday inherit the mantle from Dr. Peterson, and no doubt several witnesses will step forward and attest to Steve taking on the countenance of Dr. Peterson.

The guy is no Peterson, look at the stuff he wrote.

Quote:
His discussion of the timeline of the translation of the Book of Abraham is one such debatable point. Gee believes the extant text of the Book of Abraham was translated by the end of 1835. “Joseph revised the translation preparatory to its publication in 1842, but other than that, no evidence has survived that he worked on the translation of the existing Book of Abraham after 1835” (15). In this Gee appears to be following a translation timeline for the Book of Abraham laid out by Kerry Muhlestein and Megan Hansen.17 I am not confident that this timeline for the translation of the Book of Abraham is as certain as these authors, including Gee, would have us suppose. The key piece of evidence that contradicts this timeline is the appearance of transliterated Hebrew words in Abraham 3 that are clearly drawn from Joshua Seixas’ Hebrew classes offered in Kirtland, Ohio, beginning in 1836.18 Their appearance in the Book of Abraham as well as the text’s recognition thatʾelōhîm (God) is technically a plural noun in Hebrew (cf. Abraham 4:1–12, 14, 16–18, 20–22, 24–29, 31; 5:2–5, 7–9, 11–16, 20), it could be argued, would seem to indicate that Abraham 3 onward was translated after Joseph Smith studied Hebrew in 1836. Muhlestein and Hansen believe this can be reconciled by understanding the transliterated Hebrew words in Abraham 3 as interpretative glosses added by Joseph Smith in his preparations for the publication of the Book of Abraham in 1842 after he initially translated the text in 1835. 19 While this is possible, it remains speculative. It seems we simply do not know enough at the moment to stake out any definitive answers.

https://www.mormoninterpreter.com/press ... f-abraham/


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 Post subject: Re: Truth of the Book of Abraham Part 1 (Video by Dan Vogel)
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 8:33 pm 
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Shulem wrote:
Who is Daniel C Peterson? .

He is completely crazy


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 Post subject: Re: Truth of the Book of Abraham Part 1 (Video by Dan Vogel)
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 8:25 am 
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DoubtingThomas wrote:
Shulem wrote:
Who is Daniel C Peterson? .

He is completely crazy

I don't know and can't say whether he's crazy or not but I will say that he's a dishonest character pretending to be of the most honest sort. He's a typical LDS apologetic hypocrite that bends, twists, distorts, hides, covers, deflects, and denies truth. What is truth?

Truth is a knowledge of things as they are, as they were, and as they are to come. That's what Joseph Smith said and he was spot on. With that said, I would love it if Mr. Peterson would talk about the Explanations of Facsimile No. 3 in a truthful manner and not use trickery mentioned above which are the tactics employed by apologists to rescue LDS testimony which rejects truth as it was, is, and is to come.

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 Post subject: Re: Truth of the Book of Abraham Part 1 (Video by Dan Vogel)
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 10:50 am 
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I wrote this on another thread last year which I think might be relevant...

grindael wrote:
There is a claim in the book that says,
Quote:
Some may feel that we also need to account for Joseph Smith believing the plates were genuine. Although he was a prophet, he was a man who could make mistakes. Joseph Smith believed that the Holy Ghost could warn him of trouble and help him discern truth from falsehood,


The part about the Holy Ghost is true. According to what Joseph himself wrote in his "revelations" we absolutely do need to account for Joseph believing the plates were genuine. And yes, EVERYONE makes mistakes. But this is a broad generalization, that is why we need to analyze Smith's teachings and what he claimed about his prophetic office.

So... they try to limit this and claim that Joseph could pretty easily (in my opinion) be deceived.

Think about it. Joseph is claiming that he can "translate" ancient records. His followers explicitly believe this. Yet, Don's theory has NOTHING to do with this. It is about a casual comparison. Yet they make the statement that Joseph Smith believed that the HG could warn him of trouble and help him discern truth from falsehood and brush it off. I've discussed this and why I believe it is important.

Also, what about translating? What is translating? It is more than just a casual comparison.

Here are Clayton's words, vs. what Don said that Joseph got from the GAEL, matches in Blue.

Quote:
[Clayton] They contain the history of the person with whom they were found & he was a descendant of Ham through the loins of Pharaoh king of Egypt,  

[GAEL Haeoophah] Honor by birth, kingly power by the line of Pharaoh; possession by birth;

[Clayton] and that he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven & earth.  

[GAEL Haeoophah] one who reigns upon his throne universally—possessor of heaven and earth, and of the blessings of the earth.


They claim,

Quote:
The character named “Ha e oop hah” in Joseph Smith’s “Egyptian Alphabet” can be seen as the same character featured prominently on the top of one of the Kinderhook plates, and the reported content of Joseph Smith’s translation from the Kinderhook plates can be substantially drawn from that character’s definition in the “Egyptian Alphabet.” It may be that the “portion” of the Kinderhook plates that Joseph Smith translated on or before May 1, 1843, was no more than this single character from the top of one of the plates. It appears that Joseph Smith shared this same translation with the group of men who met a few days later. (Hales, Laura Harris. A Reason for Faith: Navigating LDS Doctrine and Church History (Kindle Locations 2699-2703). Deseret Book Company/RSC. Kindle Edition).


First, the content that Clayton gave cannot be "substantially drawn from that character". One can see that there are only two points of similarity. The words " of Pharaoh", and the words "of heaven and earth".

If Clayton and Joseph had the GAEL in front of them, why would Clayton need to paraphrase? He could simply have copied exactly what the "translation" was. But the majority of what is under the Egyptian word "Haeoophah" is not found in Clayton's translation. Joseph claimed that "the person with whom they were found", received his kingdom from the "ruler of heaven and earth". The "Haeoophah" definition claims that they would be described as "the possessor of heaven and earth" but it doesn't mention the "ruler of heaven and earth". Joseph claimed that he was descended from Ham, yet they cannot link any of that grapheme with the rest of Joseph's "translation". I don't see how what Joseph "translated" can be "substantially drawn" from that one character. In fact, it cannot. That is why it is important to know how Joseph translated things, which I'm going to discuss below.

Also, we do not know what Joseph said to his visitors A WEEK LATER. To claim that Joseph shared this same translation with those men on that date is simply not in the evidence. If Joseph shared a "translation", why doesn't Emmons mention it?

They also write,

Quote:
It is reasonable to place the Kinderhook-plates episode in the same context as the Book of Mormon—that Joseph Smith was either translating or pretending to translate the Kinderhook plates by the power of God. The problem with this common assumption is that it ignores the evidence that Joseph Smith had a personal interest in languages, that he spent considerable time studying languages, that he engaged in traditional translation without claiming divine aid, and that he approached the Kinderhook plates in precisely this fashion.


Wow. It's all been settled then. They continue...

Quote:
Joseph Smith and Translation by Revelation

Joseph Smith’s interest in language grew naturally out of his earlier prophetic projects. He had translated the Book of Mormon in 1828 and 1829.36 According to the Book of Mormon, the golden plates had been written using “reformed Egyptian” characters to express the Hebrew language.37 From the time he translated this passage forward, Joseph Smith may have seen a relationship between the Hebrew and Egyptian languages. From 1830 to 1833, Joseph Smith and his scribes worked on a “new translation” of the Bible. Starting with the King James Version, they made several expansions and hundreds of revisions to the text, some by revelation and others, such as small grammatical changes, which may have been considered to be the result of human reason rather than revelation.38 In the summer of 1835, Joseph Smith and others in Kirtland, Ohio, purchased four Egyptian mummies and a collection of papyri. Using the papyri, Joseph Smith translated the Book of Abraham by the divine gift of revelation.39 He translated Abraham 1:1–2:18 in Kirtland; then he resumed his translation several years later in Nauvoo. His journal reports that he was “translating” the Book of Abraham and then “translating and revising” on March 8–9, 1842—about one year before he translated from the Kinderhook plates. Some of the explanations of the illustrations that accompanied the published Book of Abraham used Hebrew words—again linking Hebrew and Egyptian.40

Joseph Smith and Traditional Translation

Joseph Smith’s translation work with the Egyptian papyri in 1835 heightened his more traditional interest in ancient languages. In addition to the Egyptian papyri themselves and the Book of Abraham translation manuscripts, there are several other manuscripts from this period that are clearly related to both. These documents, commonly called the “Kirtland Egyptian Papers,” are in the handwriting of Joseph Smith and others who were helping him at the time. One of these documents is a bound volume titled “Grammar & Alphabet of the Egyptian Language,” with a spine labeled “Egyptian Alphabet.” The “Egyptian Alphabet” is really more of a lexicon—a sort of dual-language dictionary with Egyptian characters and corresponding definitions or interpretations in English.41 It is uncertain why or how these documents were made, but many of the character interpretations are clearly related to content in the Book of Abraham. Because of this, some people view the documents as the translation key for Egyptian by which Joseph Smith produced the English text of the Book of Abraham. Critics of Mormonism especially favor this hypothesis because the English interpretations of the Egyptian characters do not match the definitions given by Egyptologists.42 Another hypothesis is that Joseph Smith first received the Book of Abraham by revelation and then tried to figure out how to translate Egyptian by matching papyri characters to the Book of Abraham text. Before Joseph Smith acquired the papyri, scholars in New York and Philadelphia had tried to translate them but could not.43 Champollion, the French linguist, was just beginning to figure out how to translate Egyptian using the Rosetta Stone. Perhaps Joseph Smith was attempting the same process, using the revealed Book of Abraham and the papyri as his “Rosetta Stone.”44 (Hales, Laura Harris. A Reason for Faith: Navigating LDS Doctrine and Church History (Kindle Locations 2522-2558). Deseret Book Company/RSC. Kindle Edition.)


This whole thing about Joseph being a "secular" translator is simply not borne out by the evidence. Oh, Joseph studied Hebrew and Greek and German. But did he ever attempt to translate ANY ancient documents from those languages? Not that we know of. In fact according to Henry Caswell, Joseph wasn't so familiar with Greek that he mistook it for Egyptian. Whether or not that is true, Joseph never even tried to translate Caswell's book in any kind of traditional way. The Mormons simply denied Caswell's account of the visit. If Joseph had tried to do that, I'm sure they would have said so. But they didn't. Here is what Richards supposedly said about it later,

Quote:
It will be recollected by some, that a Mr. Caswell, professing to be an Episcopal minister, came to this city some twelve or eighteen months ago. He had with him an old manuscript, professing to be ignorant of its contents, and came to Joseph Smith, as he said, for the purpose of having it translated. Mr. Smith had a little conversation with him and treated him with civility, but as the gentleman seemed very much afraid of his document, he declined having any thing to do with it.


Joseph just declined to have anything to do with it. He didn't say, "hey, that's Greek". This was a chance for them to credit Joseph for having known Greek and just say that Caswell was making things up (which they did anyway). But why isn't there any interest on Joseph's part to translate the Greek or identify it as such? What, Caswell went there with the Psalter and then just didn't show it to Smith? That makes no sense. Caswell said he spoke to Willard Richards who claimed that "sometimes Mr. Smith speaks as a prophet, and sometimes as a mere man." So they admit that Joseph said something about the Psalter if this is true. But where is there any INTEREST in translating the document? Or attempting to do a secular translation? There isn't any. (according to the Mormons).

Then, in the article on the KP, they claim that Joseph "translated" the Book of Abraham, and how did he do it a year earlier? Not by any secular means, but how? By "revelation"...

Quote:
Truly the Lord has raised up Joseph the Seer of the seed of Abraham out of the loins of ancient Joseph, & is now clothing him with mighty power & wisdom & knowledge which is more clearly manifest & felt in the midst of his intimate friends than any other class of mankind. The Lord is Blessing Joseph with Power to reveal the mysteries of the kingdom of God; to translate through the urim & Thummim Ancient records & Hyeroglyphics as old as Abraham or Adam, which causes our hearts to burn within us while we behold their glorious truths opened unto us.

Joseph the Seer has presented us some of the Book of Abraham which was written by his own hand but hid from the knowledge of man for the last four thousand years but has now come to light through the mercy of God. Joseph has had these records in his possession for several years but has never presented them before the world in the english language untill now. But he is now about to publish it to the world or parts of it by publishing it in the Times & Seasons, for Joseph the Seer is now the Editor of that paper & Elder Taylor assists him in writing while it has fallen to my lot to take charge of the Business part of the esstablishment. (Wilford Woodruff's Journal, Vol. 2, 1841–1845, p.155).


When it comes to actually translating an ancient document, what does Smith do? He goes to his tried and true method, his stone. Yet they claim,

Quote:
It is reasonable to place the Kinderhook-plates episode in the same context as the Book of Mormon—that Joseph Smith was either translating or pretending to translate the Kinderhook plates by the power of God. The problem with this common assumption is that it ignores the evidence that Joseph Smith had a personal interest in languages, that he spent considerable time studying languages, that he engaged in traditional translation without claiming divine aid, and that he approached the Kinderhook plates in precisely this fashion.


He engaged in translation exercises to be sure. Again, what ancient documents did Joseph actually translate that way? None. The one instance of this where he could have shown us that he was interested in translating that way, the Psalter incident, doesn't. And we don't have to even believe Caswell to get this. According to the Mormons, Joseph walked away from it. So what was different about the KP?

Then, Joseph "translates" the Book of Abraham and goes back to the stone and "revelation". There is no evidence that Joseph ever was interested in Champollion, or what he was doing, or that he tried to translate Egyptian by any secular means at all. And the Grammar, what was that? Christopher Smith wrote a fascinating article in 2009 that really helps us to understand it and how it related to the "translation" of the Book of Abraham.

Smith writes,

Quote:
The textual evidence strongly suggests that Joseph Smith was the primary author of the Alphabet and Grammar documents and that he used them as a translation key for portions of the Book of Abraham. The implication is that he conceived of the Alphabet and Grammar documents as products of revelation.


I concur with Smith's assessment here, but it is important to note that Smith didn't need to do this, to "translate" the Book of Abraham. When he first saw the papyri, according to Oliver Cowdery,

Quote:
The morning Mr. Chandler first presented his papyrus to bro.-Smith, he was shown, by the latter, a number of characters like those upon the writings of Mr. C. which were previously copied from the plates, containing the history of the Nephites, or book of Mormon.

Being solicited by Mr. Chandler to give an opinion concerning his antiquities, or translation of some of the characters, bro. S. gave him the interpretation of some few for his satisfaction. For your gratification I will here annex a certificate which I hold, from under the hand of Mr. Chandler, unsolicited, however, by any person in this place, which will show how far he believed bro. Smith able to unfold from these long obscured rolls the wonders contained therein:

"Kirtland, July 6th, 1835."

"This is to make known to all who may be desirous, concerning the knowledge of Mr. Joseph Smith, jr. in deciphering the ancient Egyptian hieroglyphic characters, in my possession, which I have, in many eminent cities, shown to the most learned: And, from the information that I could even learn, or meet with, I find that of Mr. Joseph Smith, jr. to correspond in the most minute matters."

(signed)

"Michael H. Chandler."

"Travelling [Traveling] with, and proprietor of Egyptian Mummies."


Why would Joseph do anything different with the Kinderhook Plates? What happened with them is uncannily similar to what happened above with the papyrus. And Joseph constructed the GAEL from "revelation". What is the timeline for the Book of Abraham and Joseph's interest in languages?

The "Manuscript History of the Church" contains the following two entries for the month of July 1835:

I [Joseph Smith], with W. W. Phelps and O. Cowdery, as scribes, commenced the translation of some of the characters or hieroglyphics.

The remainder of this month, I [Joseph Smith] was continually engaged in translating an alphabet to the Book of Abraham, and arranging a grammar of the Egyptian language as practiced by the ancients. (Courtesy of Mike Marquardt https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Egy ... 1560852321)

Here are some of his diary entries,

Quote:
October 1[st] 1835 This after noon labored on the Egyptian alphabet in company with Br[other]s O[liver] Cowdery and W[illiam] W. Phelps. The system of astronomy was unfolded [to us].

October 7, 1835 This afternoon recommenced translating the ancient reccords.

Monday, 19th At home. Ex[h]ibited the records of antiquity to a number who called to see them.

October 29, 1835 While at the Doct[or's], Bishop E[dward] Partri[d]ge came in in company with President Phelps. I was much rejoiced to see him. We examined the mum[m]ies, returned home, and my scribe commenced writing in /my/ Journal a history of my life, concluding President [Oliver] Cowdery['s] 2d letter to W[illiam] W. Phelps, which President Williams had begun.

November 9th 1835 Wednesday morning, 11th At home. Attended School during school Hours. [I] returned home and spent the evening around my fire side teaching my family the science of grammar.

Tuesday, 17th Ex[h]ibited some /the Alphabet/ of the ancient records to Mr. Holmes and some others. Went with him to F[rederick] G. Williams to see the Mum[m]ies.

Friday, November 20, 1835 At evening, President [Oliver] Cowdery returned from New York bringing with him a quantity of Hebrew books for the benefit of the school. He presented me with a Hebrew Bible, lexicon and grammar, also a Greek Lexicon and Webster's English Lexicon.

President Cowdery had a prosperous journey according to the prayers of the Saints in Kirtland.

Saturday, 21st At home. Spent the day in examining my books and studying my /the/ Hebrew alphabet. At evening met with our Hebrew class to make some arrang[e]ments about a Teacher. It was decided by the voice of the School to send {page 47} to N[ew] York for a Jew to teach us the language, if we could get released from the engagement we had made with Doct[or] Piexotto to teach the language, having as[c]ertained that he was not qualified to give us the knowledge we wish to acquire.

Monday, 23d Several brethren called to converse with me and see the [Egyptian] records. Rec[eive]d a letter from Jared Carter. Spent the day in conversing and in studying the Hebrew language. This has been a stormy day. {page 48}

Tuesday, 24th At home. Spent the fore noon instructing those that called to inquire concerning the things of God, in the last days. In the after noon we translated some of the Egyptian records.

Wednesday, 25th Spent the day in Translating. To day Harvey Redfield and Jesse Hitchcock ar[r]ived here from Missourie. The latter says that he has no doubt but that a dose of [p.68] poison was administered to him in a boll [bowl] of milk, but God deli/vered him/.

Thursday, 26th At home. We spent the day in transcribing Egyptian characters from the papyrus. I am severely afflicted with a cold. Today Robert Rathbone and George Morey arrived from Zion.

Friday, 27th Much afflicted with my cold, yet able to be about. I am determined to overcom[e] in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Spent the day in reading Hebrew at home.

Saturday, 28th I am conciderably recovered from my cold. I think I shall be able in a few days to translate again with the blessing of God.

December 3, Spent the day at home [and] devoted some time in studying /the/ Hebrew language

December 7. 1835 Spent the day in reading the Hebrew. Mr. John Hollister called to take the parting hand with me and remarked that he had been in darkness all his days, but had now found the light and intended to obey it; also a number of brethren called this Evening to see the records. I ex[h]ibited and explained them to their satisfaction. We have fine sleighing.

Tuesday morning the 8th At holm [home]. Spent the day in reading Hebrew in company with President Cowdery, Doct[or] Williams, Br[other] H[yrum] Smith, and O[rson] Pratt.

December 10, This evening I spent at hom[e]. A number of brethren called to see the [Egyptian] records which I ex[h]ibited to them. They were much pleased with their interview. {page 62}

Monday, 14th This morning a number of brethren from New York call[ed] to visit me and see the Egyptian records. Elder [Martin] Harris also returned this morning from Palmyra, N[ew] York. Br[other] Frazier Eaton of the same place called to pay us a visit. A verry fine man. Also Sister Harriet How[e] called to pay us a visit.

December 16, 1835 Returned home, Elder McLellen, Elder B[righam] Young and Elder J[ared] Carter called and paid me a visit with which I was much gratified. I ex[h]ibited and explained the Egyptian Records to them and explained many things to them concerning the dealings of God with the ancients and the formation of the planetary System. They seemed much pleased with the interview.

Wednesday, 23d In the forenoon at home stud[y]ing the Greek Language. Also waited upon the brethren who came in and exhibiting to them the papirus. In the afternoon visited Brother Leonard Rich with the relatives of Bro[ther] Oliver Cowdery. Had not a very agreeable visit for I found them {page 88} filled with prejudice against the work of the Lord and their minds blinded with superstition and ignorance &c.

Saturday, 26[th] Commenced studeing the Hebrew Language in company with Bro[ther]s Parrish and Williams.

Monday morning, January 4th 1836 Meet [met] and organized our Hebrew School according to the ar[r]angements that were made on Saturday last. We had engaged Doct[or] Piexotto to teach us in the Hebrew language when we had our room prepared. We informed him that we were ready and our room prepared. He agreed to wait on us this day and deliver his introductory lecture. Yesterday he sent us word that he {page 98} could not come untill Wednesday next.

January 12, 1836 This after noon a young man called to see the Egyptian manuscripts and I ex[h]ibited them to him. He expressed great satisfaction and appeared verry anxious to obtain a knowledge of the translation.

Thursday morning the 14th At 9 o'clock, meet the Hebrew class at the School room in the Chapel [Kirtland Temple] [p.103] and made some ar[r]angements about our anticipated Teacher Mr. J[oshua] Sexias [Seixas] of Hudson, Ohio.

Monday the 18th Attended the Hebrew School. This day the Elders' School was removed into the Chapel [Kirtland Temple] in the room adjoining ours. Nothing very special transpired.

Tuesday, 26[th] Mr. Seixas ar[r]ived from Hudson to teach the Hebrew Langu[a]ge. I attended upon the organizing of the class for the purpose of receiving his lectures on Hebrew grammar. His hours of instruction are from ten to eleven A.M. and from two to three P.M. His introduction pleased me much. I think he will be a help to the class in learning the Hebrew.

Saturday, 30[th] Attended school as usual, and waited upon several visiters and showed them the record of Abraham. Mr. Seixas our Hebrew teacher examined them with deep interest and pronounced them to be original beyound all doubt. He is a man of excellent understanding and has a knowledge of many languages which were spoken by the Antints [ancients]. He is an honorable man so far as I can judge as yet.

February 1, 1836 Had an other interview with Mr. Seixas our Hebrew teacher and related to him some of the dealings of God to me and gave him some of the evidences of the work of the latter days. He list[e]ned candidly and did not appose. {page 149}

Wednesday, 3[rd] Attended our Hebrew lecture A.M. and studied with O[liver] Cowdery and Sylvester Smith. P.M. received many visiters and showed the records of Abraham. My father blest three with a patriarchal blessing. Eld[er] A[lvah] Be[e]man handed in the names of seventy of his quorem, designed for another seventy if God will.

Feb 29th, 1836 This after noon Professor Seixas returned from Hudson and brought a few more Bibles and one grammar of his 2d edition. The weather is warm and our Sleighing is failing fast.

Wednesday March the 2nd Persued my studies as usual. At 7 o'clock in the evening, the first class met agreeably to the request of Mr. Seixas at Eld[e]r O[rson] Hyde's to spend one hour in translating. Dismissed and returned home.

March 11, This evening our class met at Mr. Seixas' room and spent an hour in our Studies. Class dismissed and retired except the school committee who tarried and made some ar[r]angements with Mr. Seixas about continuing longer with us and bringing his family to this place.

Tuesday the 29th Attended school, which was the last day of our course of lectures in Hebrew by Professor Seixas


That's the end of the Hebrew studies with Sexias and the Book of Abraham "translation" for Joseph, until Nauvoo. Christopher Smith writes,

Quote:
In his letter to William Frye, Cowdery interpreted one vignette from the Ta-shere-min papyrus by appeal to Josephus’ Antiquities of the Jews.30 Cowdery was likely reading Josephus as the project proceeded and offered insights into the ancient histories of Egypt and Israel. Josephus, for example, refers to Egypt as Mestre (apparently a Greek rendering of the Hebrew name for Egypt, Mizraim) and the Egyptians as Mestreans.31 The GAEL calls Egypt Ah=meh=strah and the Egyptians the Ah meh strahans, apparently Egyptianizations of the names from Josephus.32 Thus Smith likely absorbed this suggestion from Cowdery, then, added his own prophetic touch.33


So the link of Hebrew and Egyptian is Joseph using some Hebrew words and trying to convert them into Egyptian words with his "prophetic touch"! Is this being a legitimate translator or just a con man claiming to know ancient Egyptian?

They write,
Quote:
True to his intentions, Joseph Smith maintained a passion for and intermittent study of languages for the rest of his life. In addition to Hebrew, he studied Greek, and in Nauvoo he occasionally cited the Greek New Testament in his sermons.48 He also frequently used Latin phrases in sermons and letters.49 Hales, Laura Harris. A Reason for Faith: Navigating LDS Doctrine and Church History (Kindle Locations 2578-2581). Deseret Book Company/RSC. Kindle Edition.


Was the phrase summum bonum really Joseph quoting Latin from being familiar with that language, or was it a phrase that was used by the people of his time? Here is an example from Webster's 1828 dictionary,
Quote:
TRENCH'ER, n. A wooden plate. Trenchers were in use among the common people of New England till the revolution.
1. The table.
2. Food; pleasures of the table.
It would be no ordinary declension that would bring some men to place their summum bonum upon their trenchers.


This is the only example of Joseph using a Latin phrase that they give. And sure, Joseph used some Greek words. And they give the references of a few instances where Joseph did this. But what does Joseph say, when he quotes some of these phrases? Why is he doing it?

Quote:
The grand Council set [sat?] at the head and contemplated the creation of the world, some will say, the scriptures say so & so, but I will show you a text out of an old book containing the four languages, the german is here what does this text say, yoakabeam, the son of Zebedee, the bible says James the son of Zebedee, but this says Jacob son of Zebedee 21 ch 4th ver Matthew The Dr says (I mean Dr of Law not of physic) If you say any thing not according to the Bible we will cry treason, But if ye are not led by revelation how can ye escape the damnation of Hell, here we have the testimony of four I have the oldest Book in the world & the holy Ghost I thank God for the old Book but more for the Holy Ghost.


So Joseph had a parallel Bible or something like it and would take some phrases out of it for his speeches. He studied Hebrew for a few months in 1835-36, a little Greek and German. Yet, what does he say here, that he is more reliant on the Holy Ghost than any language translation.

The GAEL came from the mind of Joseph Smith. He had reviewed and "translated" more of the Book of Abraham just a year before the KP were shown to him. Why would he need to use it, to get the partial "translation" he gave to Clayton? Clayton does not mention any lexicons, or traditional translation tools. All the comparisons come later after Joseph points in the direction of the papyri and the Book of Mormon characters. He not only had the Book of Mormon, but he had just finished his Book of Abraham. What better way to promote it as authentic than to link it with the papyri and his already "translated" materials?

This seems to be what he did two years earlier when he showed William Appleby the Boturini Codex on May 7, 1841. According to his diary/autobiography, Appleby arrived in Quincy, Illinois aboard the steamer "Fulton" on April 29, 1841, and arrived in Nauvoo the next day. He went to visit Joseph on the 5th of May, and wrote that "Today I paid Br. Joseph a visit, received instruction concerning "Baptism for the Dead," read the revelation as given by the Lord last January concerning the same, and Recorded in the "Book of the Law of the Lord," viewed four mummies, one male and three females, brought from Ancient Thebes in Egypt, -saw the rolls of papyrus, and the writings thereon, taken from off the bosom of the Male Mummy, being some of the writings of ancient Abraham and of Joseph, that was sold into Egypt. The writings are chiefly in the Egyptian language, with the exception of a little Hebrew. ... Joseph appears to have been the best scribe. Appleby then provides some "extracts from the Papyrus" and give a brief history of the papyrus and how Joseph acquired them. After viewing them and receiving instructions relative to Baptism for the Dead, Appleby went out to the Mississippi and was baptized for some of his dead relatives.

The next day, Joseph showed him the Boturini codex and Appleby wrote,

Saw a representation of the travels of "Lehi" and family from Jerusalem, (as recorded in the Book of Mormon, when he came to this continent) represented by Hieroglyphics, containing near twenty feet in length, and one foot in breath. Their footsteps are particularly laid down, the productions of the soil represented, where they traveled through the places of their encampments, and the Boat in crossing the "large waters" (p. 79) Their landing on this continent, Lehi's circumcising his sons &c. The Representations were found engraved on Rock, in South America, and "fac Similies," taken there from, on Paper, and presented to Joseph Smith by a gentleman of New York City. (p. 80)

The next day (May 7th), he wrote that he "Saw the record, and read from the same containing an account of the ministrations of the Angel "Moroni", to Br. Joseph..." and "read part of the New Translation of the Bible". He then received his patriarchal blessing from Hyrum Smith. (From William I. Appleby, Autobiography and journal, MS 1401, Church History Library).

So Appleby is visiting with Joseph on consecutive days and viewing his translations and histories and "revelations", and is told that the Boturini Codex is a representation of the travels of Lehi. This was two years before Kinderhook. A year later, Joseph continues his "translation" of the Book of Abraham and publishes what he has finished up that time.

Joseph as "secular" Translator. Did Joseph engage in traditional translation without claiming divine aid? That's not what he says.

I found the article "The Translator and the Ghostwriter: Joseph Smith and W. W. Phelps," that Chris Smith mentions in his article very interesting. This stood out to me:

Quote:
By 1835, Smith added direct translation from the Egyptian to his repertoire, analyzing, and then translating into what became the book of Abraham a collection of funerary papyri purchased that summer at Kirtland, Ohio. During his sustained encounter with the papyri, Smith also organized a Hebrew School in Kirtland, an amplification of his School of the Prophets under the tutelage of Joshua Seixas, a freelance Hebraist visiting Oberlin College but with connections to the conservative Andover Seminary in central Massachusetts.3 Upon the place to which the Saints fled after the Missouri Mormon War of 1838 Smith also bestowed a Hebrew name (Nauvoo). Smith would continue to study Hebrew, often with the help of Jewish convert Alex Neibaur, until the end of his life. As evidence of familiarity with Greek, he puzzled through the etymology of the word paradise in an 1843 sermon exploring life after death.4 In his last two public sermons (the King Follett Discourse and the Sermon in the Grove), he undertook a radical retranslation of the first sentence of the Hebrew Bible to explain his vision of God’s nature.5 In the same sermons he gave his listeners to understand that he could decipher Greek, Latin, Hebrew, and German.6 http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewc ... monhistory

But as I mentioned above, here is how Smith "translated" the word "paradise", and notice the reference to "divine aid"...

Quote:
Spirits of prison. The Holy Ghost reveals it. Spirits in the world of Spirits which Jesus went to preach to. God ordained that he who would save his dead should do it by getting together {page 245} as with the Jews. It always has been when a man was sent of God with the Priesthood and he began to preach the fulness of the gospel that [he] was thrust out by his friends. They are ready to butcher him if he teach[es] things which they had imagined to be wrong. Jesus was crucified upon this principle.

I will turn linguist. Many things in the Bible which do not, as they now stand, accord with the revelation of the Holy Ghost to me. Ponder "This day thou sha[l]t be with me in paradise." Paradise, [a] Modern word, don't answer to the original word used by Jesus. {page 246} Find the origin of Paradise. Find a needle in a hay mow. Here is a chance for a battle ye learned men. Said Jesus, for there is not time to investigat[e] this matter. For this day you will be with me in the world of Spi[ri]ts. Then I will teach you all about it. Peter says he went and preached to the [p.385] world of Spirits so that they would receive it [and] could have it answered by proxey by those who live on the earth &c. Scott H. Faulring, An American Prophet's Record, p.384


So how is Joseph a "linguist" here in any traditional sense of the word? He is not. He cannot seem to separate the Holy Ghost from his "translations". I mentioned this above and also showed that this is the same with the King Follett Discourse. Joseph would simply make something up, and claim it was from the "Holy Ghost", and then try and explain it by claiming to be a "linguist". I've shown that Smith was completely wrong, paradise is an ancient word.

On the 16th of June Joseph did it again, and notice how he claims to be able to "translate" correctly using "divine aid":

Quote:
The Prophet read the 3rd Rev. text 6th. v. & made us K & P. unto God & his Far to him be glory & dom. for evermore 2—.

It is altogr. correct in the translatn. —now you know that of late some have sprung up & apostat. & they declare that Pro bel[ieves]. in a plurality of Gods 4—&c. & behold a very great secret they cry it has been my intentn. to take up this subjt. & show what my Faith is in the matter—I have contemplated the saying of Je[sus] as it was in the days of Noah so shall it be at his 2nd. coming & if it rains I'll preach—the plurarlity of Gods—I have selected this text I wish to declare I have allways—& in all congregats. when I have preached it has been the plurality of Gods it has been preached 15 years—I have always decld. God to be a distinct personage—J.C. a sep. & distinct pers from God the Far. the H.G was a distinct personage 5 & or stake president & these 3 constit. 3 distinct personages & 3 Gods—if this is in accordance with the New Test.—lo & behold we have 3 Gods any how & they are plural any how—our text says the apost[les] have disc[overe]d. that there were Gods above—God was the Far. of our Ld. J.C. —my object was to preach the Scrip—& preach the doctrine there being a God above the Far. of our Ld. J.C.—I am bold to declare I have taut. all the strong doctrines publicly—& always stronger that what I preach in private—John was one of the men & the apos. declare they were made K. & P. unto God the Fatr. of our Ld. J.C. it reads just so hence the doctrine of a plurality of Gods is as prominent in the Bible as any doctrine—it is all over the face of the Bible, it stands beyond the power of controversy—a wayfaring man though a fool need not fail—Paul says there are gods many & Lords many -I want to set it in a plain simple manner—but to us there is but one God pertaining to us, in all thro all,—but if J. Smith says there is Gods many & LDS. many they cry away with him crucify him mankind verily say that the Scrip [i]s with them—Search the Script & & they testify of things that apostates wod blaspheme—Paul if Jo Smith is a blasphemer you are—I say there are Gods many & LDS many but to us only one & we are to be in subject to that one & no man can limit the bounds, or the eternal existence of eternal time—hath he beheld the e[terna]l. world. & is he authd. to say that there is only God he makes himself a fool—& there is an end of his career in knowledge he cannot obtn. all knowledge for he has sealed up the gate to

some say I do not interpret same as you—they say it means the heathen God. Paul says there are Gods many &c it makes a plurality of Gods any how—witht. a revn. [without a revelation] I am not going to give the God of Heaven to them any how—you know & I testify that Paul had no allusions to it—I have it from God & get over it if you canI have a witness of the H.G—& a test. that Paul had no allusion to the heathen G. in the text—Twice I will shew from the Heb. Bible & the 1st. word shews a plurality of Gods—& I want the apostate & learned men to come here—& prove to the contrary an unlearned boy must give you a little Hebrew—Berosheit &c In the begin. rosheit—the head—it shod. read the heads of—to organize the Gods—Eloiheam Eloi. God in sing. heam, reanders Gods I want a little learning as well as other fools


On the 12th of May, Joseph turned German "linguist". Here is what he said,

Quote:
I shall read the 24th. ch of Matthew and give it a litteral rendering and reading, and when it is rightly understood it will be edifying (he then read & translated it from the German) I thought the very oddity of its rendering would be edifying any how—"And it will preached be; the Gospel of the Kingdom in the whole world, to a witness over all people, and then will the end come." I will now read it in German—(which he did, and many Germans who were present said he translated it correct) the Savior said, when those tribulations should take place, it should be committed to a man, who should be a witness over the whole world, the keys of knowledge, power, and revelations, should be revealed to a witness who should hold the testimony to the world; it has always been my province to dig up hidden mysteries, new things, for my hearers—just at the time when some men think that I have no right to the keys of the Priesthood just at that time, I have the greatest right—the Germans are an exalted people. the old German translators are the most correct; most honest of any of the translators, and therefore I get testimony to bear me out in the revelations that I have preached for the last 14 years—the old German, Latin, Greek and Hebrew translations all say it is true, they cannot be impeached, and therefore I am in good company—all the testimony is, that the Lord in the last days would commit the keys of the Priesthood to a witness over all people—has the Gospel of the Kingdom commenced in the last days? and will God take it from the man, until he takes him, himself? I have read it precisely as the words flowed from the lips of Jesus Christ— ... Woe! Woe! be to that man, or set of men, who lift up their hands against God and his Witness in these last days. ... all men who are mortal, dwell in everlasting burnings; you cannot go any where, but where God can find you out; all men are born to die & all must rise, all must enter eternity—in order for you to receive your children to yourself, you must have a promise, some ordinance some blessing in order to assend above principalities or else it may be an angel —they must rise just as they died—we can there hail our lovely infants with the same glory, the same loveliness in the celestial glory where they all enjoy alike—they differ in stature, in size—the same glorious spirit gives them the likeness of glory and bloom —the old man with his silvery hairs will glory in bloom & beauty —no man can describe it to you—no man can write it — when did I ever teach any thing wrong from this stand? when was I ever confounded? I want to triumph in Israel before I depart hence and am no more seen —I never told you I was perfect—but there is no error in the revelations which I have taught—must I then be thrown away as a thing of nought?—I enjoin for your consideration, add to your faith, virtue, love &c I say in the name of the Lord, if these things are in you, you shall be fruitful. I testify that no man has power to reveal it, but myself, things in heaven, in earth and hell —and all shut your mouths for the future—


See the context? See how Smith claims special knowledge by "divine aid" in translating?

The German reads,

Und es wird dieses Evangelium vom Reich verkündet werden in der ganzen Welt zum Zeugnis für alle Völker, und hierauf wird das Ende kommen.

The English translation reads,

And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the world as a testimony to all peoples, and the end will come.

Smith's translation reads,

"And it will preached be; the Gospel of the Kingdom in the whole world, to a witness over all people, and then will the end come."

Then Smith gets this out of it,

Quote:
the Savior said, when those tribulations should take place, it should be committed to a man, who should be a witness over the whole world, the keys of knowledge, power, and revelations, should be revealed to a witness who should hold the testimony to the world


How does this make the German any more clear that the Greek? Where does he get his information that the German translators are more "honest" or accurate? What Smith translated, isn't even close to what he says it REALLY means. Was Joseph really good at translating or was he simply a rank amateur who pretended to be a master of languages? What he publicly took credit for, was ghostwritten by William W. Phelps! http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewc ... monhistory

The Phelps article indicates the latter. Smith simply had Phelps ghostwrite his speeches where he uses words in other languages to show off his claimed linguistic talents and he throws a few phrases into his speeches once in a while.

Quote:
Careful review of the scribal activity of William Wine Phelps in the last year or so of Smith’s life points to and illuminates several important aspects of Smith’s creative work. First, it demonstrates his reliance on a ghostwriter for the bulk of his published political statements and correspondence, though his doctrinal statements do not necessarily show the same evidence of ghostwriting. The well-documented drafting of the Bennett correspondence during the writing of several similar political statements seems to provide a reasonable overview of the process by which Smith “wrote” several of the late documents attributed to him. Smith assigned topics, providing some guidance on the content required, then reviewed the productions of his lieutenants before final approval.

Second, that Smith allowed Phelps to continue to include what are now embarrassing multilingual asides in his official correspondence
provides a glimpse of both men’s desires. Language as a sign of erudition or access to biblical mysteries mattered a great deal to both
of them. Not to be left behind by seminary-trained ministers or erudite scholars, they hoped to demonstrate their familiarity with ancient language and texts. Though many writers of the era adorned their phrases with snippets from foreign languages, few could compete with Phelps’s excesses. http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewc ... monhistory


I believe that his having people run and fetch his lexicon, etc. were so he could use them as props. What is missing from Sylvester Emmons account? Richards or William Smith ran to get his Hebrew Bible and Lexicon, but Emmons doesn't mention them. Only that they did comparisons with Smith's "Egyptian Alphabet" that he took from the gold plates or invented later in Kirtland. And if he is by some chance using the GAEL to get his "translation", it was revelatory material that he made up himself! So the whole act was a bogus prophet using his own bogus material to "translate" bogus plates. Do real prophets make up bogus Alphabets and Grammars by "revelation"? Do amateur translators do that? Nothing about what Smith did was normal.

Quote:
It is quite possible that he attempted to translate the Kinderhook plates, not as a prophet, but as a linguist. (Hales, Laura Harris. A Reason for Faith: Navigating LDS Doctrine and Church History (Kindle Location 2589). Deseret Book Company/RSC. Kindle Edition)


What kind of a linguist though? A PROPHET linguist who gets his "translations" from the Holy Ghost as he claims to be using normal means of translating? A linguist who gets material from a ghostwriter? A linguist who makes up phony alphabets and uses them to claim he is legitimately translating what he thought was an ancient artifact?

I'll let the readers decide.

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 Post subject: Re: Truth of the Book of Abraham Part 1 (Video by Dan Vogel)
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 11:54 am 
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grindael wrote:
The next day, Joseph showed him the Boturini codex...

Wasn't the Boturini Codex a series of Aztec hieroglyphics which predicted the coming of the prophet J.R. "Bob" Dobbs and the formation of the Church of the SubGenius?

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 Post subject: Re: Truth of the Book of Abraham Part 1 (Video by Dan Vogel)
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 3:59 pm 
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Here Comes The Book of Abraham Part I


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