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 Post subject: Are the Apologists 'Set Apart' by the Brethren?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:12 pm 
Master Mahan

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On the new, very excellent thread started by Cinepro, a basic discussion is underway concerning the notion that the authority for revelation in the Church has been ceded to the apologists. That is: the Brethren no longer provide new knowledge for the flock; rather, this job has been delegated to the folks at the Maxwell Institute. I think that Mr. Pro is dead-on in his analysis, and I find his argument highly persuasive.

But, what interests me for the sake of this thread is something else. In a toss-away, apparently joking remark, SilentKid said:

Quote:
These new theories may come from academic channels, but they are not bereft of priesthood authority or revelation. I'm pretty sure that Dr. Peterson and Dr. Hamblin and other notable apologists have prayed for a spiritual witness of the truthfulness of their theories and have received those feelings of peace and enlightenment that they are entitled to as confirmed members of God's true church. They have felt the guiding hand of the lord in their search for explanations to difficult gospel issues. They are the new breed of preisthood authority, even Academic Authorities, which are far superior to those General ones.


While he may have been joking, I think that this is genuinely interesting, and worth pursuing. Do the apologists feel that their work is spiritual? Certainly, we have seen them bear their testimonies--both on the messageboards and in print. But, are the spiritual rituals of the Church ever included in Mopologetics? Do DCP and Hamblin ever pray specifically about Mopologetic issues---the DNA issue, for example? Personally, I assume that they do. Why wouldn't they?

Similarly, some have postulated that the top-drawer apologists were set apart by the General Authorities, and that FARMS Chairmanships and the like are actually Church callings. I also believe this is true. I believe that some members of the Maxwell Institute are actually fulfilling callings for the Church, and that, in a very real sense, they believe they are serving the Brethren on a kind of spiritual mission. I believe that hands were laid on the head of DCP and Louis Midgley, and that these brothers were called to be apologists for the Church.


Last edited by Mister Scratch on Sat Mar 28, 2009 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Mopologetics & Priesthood Authority
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:21 pm 
Nope. Not true.

I suppose that speculation, however, passes for evidence so it must be true.

Mormon Studies is a legitimate field of study as well as Islamic Studies, Jewish Studies, Queer Studies, African-American Studies and the like. Those who toil in these areas apply what professional or amateurish skills they may possess to publish. There is no "setting apart" and whether they "pray" over what they do is no more significant than professional football players praying together before the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Mopologetics & Priesthood Authority
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:26 pm 
Master Mahan

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rcrocket wrote:
Nope. Not true.

I suppose that speculation, however, passes for evidence so it must be true.


What's your evidence that they haven't been set apart?

Quote:
Mormon Studies is a legitimate field of study as well as Islamic Studies, Jewish Studies, Queer Studies, African-American Studies and the like. Those who toil in these areas apply what professional or amateurish skills they may possess to publish. There is no "setting apart" and whether they "pray" over what they do is no more significant than professional football players praying together before the game.


This is a false analogy, since football is not a "legitimate field of study." It would have been better if you'd said, "There is no "setting apart" and whether they "pray" over what they do is no more significant than scientists praying together before they attempt to smash atoms together."

You seem to be suggesting that there is no spirituality whatsoever to Mopologetics, and that FARMS apologists pursue their tasks in a purely "academic," highly mercenary way. That is: they are serving the intellect rather than the mantle. Is that what you're saying, Bob?


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 Post subject: Re: Mopologetics & Priesthood Authority
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:34 pm 
Mister Scratch wrote:
What's your evidence that they haven't been set apart?


That's right. Throw out purely unsupported speculation and then when somebody points out that it is raw speculation, demand proof to the contrary.

Well, somehow I don't think I'm going to be able to prove that aliens didn't visit Roswell, NM.


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 Post subject: Re: Mopologetics & Priesthood Authority
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:38 pm 
Master Mahan

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rcrocket wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:
What's your evidence that they haven't been set apart?


That's right. Throw out purely unsupported speculation and then when somebody points out that it is raw speculation, demand proof to the contrary.



When teachers are hired at BYU, they are often given a "sit-down" with one of the Brethren. Given the even higher status of the apologists---doctrine and revelation-wise---I think that my belief is entirely reasonable. Perhaps DCP or one of the other big shots will turn up to tell us otherwise, either here or on MAD.


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 Post subject: Re: Mopologetics & Priesthood Authority
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:49 pm 
Hermit
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rcrocket wrote:
Nope. Not true.

I suppose that speculation, however, passes for evidence so it must be true.

Mormon Studies is a legitimate field of study as well as Islamic Studies, Jewish Studies, Queer Studies, African-American Studies and the like. Those who toil in these areas apply what professional or amateurish skills they may possess to publish. There is no "setting apart" and whether they "pray" over what they do is no more significant than professional football players praying together before the game.


But nothing you write here suggests that Mopologists aren't "set apart" or that there isn't or couldn't ever be a real need for set-apart Mopologists. Being a president of a university is a profession that could be accompanied by prayer and fasting to do the job well or not, but in at least one case, being the president of a university is also a calling or part of a calling. Also, outside of Mormonism Jesuit Priests can do scholarship as part of their function as priests.


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 Post subject: Re: Mopologetics & Priesthood Authority
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:49 pm 
God
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Mister Scratch wrote:
When teachers are hired at BYU, they are often given a "sit-down" with one of the Brethren. Given the even higher status of the apologists---doctrine and revelation-wise---I think that my belief is entirely reasonable. Perhaps DCP or one of the other big shots will turn up to tell us otherwise, either here or on MAD.


:lol:

You're mistaking a fishbowl for an ocean again.

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"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo


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 Post subject: Re: Mopologetics & Priesthood Authority
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:50 pm 
Every faculty member is interviewed by a general authority. So what?

You've branded me as an apologist. After all, I am twice published. Nobody gave me a sit down. There's some evidence. Nobody grilled me for orthodoxy before I published.


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 Post subject: Re: Mopologetics & Priesthood Authority
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:54 pm 
Master Mahan

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rcrocket wrote:
Every faculty member is interviewed by a general authority. So what?

You've branded me as an apologist. After all, I am twice published. Nobody gave me a sit down. There's some evidence. Nobody grilled me for orthodoxy before I published.


Come on, Bob. You aren't anywhere near the top of the Mopologetic totem pole. We're talking about the "Big Boys"---DCP, Midgley, Gee---guys like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Mopologetics & Priesthood Authority
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:55 pm 
Hermit
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Quote:
pray specifically about Mopologetic issues---the DNA issue, for example? Personally, I assume that they do. Why wouldn't they?


A dangerous line of inquiry here, my friend. If this is so, then do they pray about other things too? For instance, missionaries tract, and pray about areas to knock on doors. So, would an ordained apologist perhaps pray about what critics to skewer? Who to launch campaigns against?


Last edited by Gadianton on Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Mopologetics & Priesthood Authority
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:55 pm 
God
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Mister Scratch wrote:
What's your evidence that they haven't been set apart?


There is no proof that would satisfy you. You assume apologists lie as easily as they breathe. I suppose in-depth video evidence of apologists from birth to grave might suffice but I'm pretty sure it's unavailable.

I think it's entirely reasonable to assume that you're 400 pounds and live in your mom's basement but it's still a random guess much like yours. I can't disprove either.

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"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo


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 Post subject: Re: Mopologetics & Priesthood Authority
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 6:58 pm 
God
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Gadianton wrote:
A dangerous line of inquiry here, my friend. If this is so, then do they pray about other things too? For instance, missionaries tract, and pray about areas to knock on doors. So, would an ordained apologist perhaps pray about what critics to skewer? Who to launch campaigns against?


:lol: I thought I had a rich fantasy life.

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"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo


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 Post subject: Re: Mopologetics & Priesthood Authority
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:49 pm 
God
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rcrocket wrote:
Nope. Not true.

I suppose that speculation, however, passes for evidence so it must be true.

Mormon Studies is a legitimate field of study as well as Islamic Studies, Jewish Studies, Queer Studies, African-American Studies and the like. Those who toil in these areas apply what professional or amateurish skills they may possess to publish. There is no "setting apart" and whether they "pray" over what they do is no more significant than professional football players praying together before the game.

I was once set apart as the ward unplanned party planner committee member. It is not a far stretch to say that they have also been set apart.

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 Post subject: Re: Mopologetics & Priesthood Authority
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:55 pm 
God
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No, I don't think DCP, Hamblin, and other apologists are praying for spiritual confirmation in their apologetic efforts. I think they treat it as an extension of their scholarly, intellectual pursuits, and less as an extension of their spiritual lives. Likewise, I doubt very many readers are praying for spiritual confirmation of apologetic works. Apologetics is the arm of the flesh. The troubling thing, I suppose, is when members find the "arm of the flesh" working where the gospel fails. :surprised:

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 Post subject: Re: Mopologetics & Priesthood Authority
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:58 pm 
Master Mahan

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Gadianton wrote:
Quote:
pray specifically about Mopologetic issues---the DNA issue, for example? Personally, I assume that they do. Why wouldn't they?


A dangerous line of inquiry here, my friend. If this is so, then do they pray about other things too? For instance, missionaries tract, and pray about areas to knock on doors. So, would an ordained apologist perhaps pray about what critics to skewer? Who to launch campaigns against?


Huh. That is a very provocative notion. I had not envisioned it quite that way, though. I think that we need to remember that these guys are very gifted sophists. Thus, I would imagine them kneeling down, and praying along the lines of, "Dear Father in Heaven, please tell me that what I'm doing is right." That's all the the apologist in question would need to say. If he then received a burning in the bosom, then he'd know that his plan to edit and publish a character assassination against, oh, I don't know---Metcalfe or Quinn, say---was winkingly approved of by HF.


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 Post subject: Re: Mopologetics & Priesthood Authority
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:59 pm 
Master Mahan

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The Dude wrote:
No, I don't think DCP, Hamblin, and other apologists are praying for spiritual confirmation in their apologetic efforts. I think they treat it as an extension of their scholarly, intellectual pursuits, and less as an extension of their spiritual lives. Likewise, I doubt very many readers are praying for spiritual confirmation of apologetic works. Apologetics is the arm of the flesh. The troubling thing, I suppose, is when members find the "arm of the flesh" working where the gospel fails. :surprised:


Do you think they were "set apart" in some sense?


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 Post subject: Re: Mopologetics & Priesthood Authority
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:12 pm 
God
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Mister Scratch wrote:
Do you think they were "set apart" in some sense?


Not in the usual sense and I don't know what else you mean.

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 Post subject: Re: Mopologetics & Priesthood Authority
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:36 pm 
God

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The Dude wrote:
No, I don't think DCP, Hamblin, and other apologists are praying for spiritual confirmation in their apologetic efforts. I think they treat it as an extension of their scholarly, intellectual pursuits, and less as an extension of their spiritual lives. Likewise, I doubt very many readers are praying for spiritual confirmation of apologetic works. Apologetics is the arm of the flesh. The troubling thing, I suppose, is when members find the "arm of the flesh" working where the gospel fails. :surprised:


Dude,

I think you're more on track here. Everything I can recall that I ever read from FARMS et al. was entirely cerebral in nature. There is very little reference (if any) to spirituality or personal connections beyond the veil. In my opinion, I think that they consider spirituality foolishness - inferior to their own intellectual prowess.

This comes from the book they have little inclination to read:

Quote:
28 O that cunning plan of the evil one! O the vainness, and the frailties, and the foolishness of men! When they are learned they think they are wise, and they hearken not unto the counsel of God, for they set it aside, supposing they know of themselves, wherefore, their wisdom is foolishness and it profiteth them not. And they shall perish.
29 But to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God.

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 9:28 - 29)


I believe they are in the attitude of attempting to compensate for their severed line of faith/belief between themselves and their Mormon God:

Quote:
42 And whoso knocketh, to him will he open; and the wise, and the learned, and they that are rich, who are puffed up because of their learning, and their wisdom, and their riches—yea, they are they whom he despiseth; and save they shall cast these things away, and consider themselves fools before God, and come down in the depths of humility, he will not open unto them.

(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 9:42)


Perhaps there is a portion of envy or jealousy they posit towards those with simple faith that speak of things spiritual. Things they are incapable of comprehending.

I don't think they pray about much, unless it is to be heard of men.


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 Post subject: Re: Mopologetics & Priesthood Authority
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:54 pm 
God

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In my opinion, apologists have a tendency to despise the counsels of their God. They love to debate and cast doubt upon the veracity of the words of their prophets.

This generally typifies the philosophy of modern day apologetics (and it most certainly is a philosophy, not a religion because I see no spirituallity in it):

Quote:
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

(New Testament | 2 Timothy 4:3 - 4)


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 Post subject: Re: Mopologetics & Priesthood Authority
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 9:25 pm 
God
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First their work was overly spiritualized and they were set apart for their work by high spiritual authority and now they're anti-spiritual bigots, cripples with no real spiritual backing.

Will you crackpots make up your mind as to which extreme evil you're going to accuse people of? Are they guilty of priestcraft or apostasy?

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"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo


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 Post subject: Re: Mopologetics & Priesthood Authority
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:03 pm 
John Larsen wrote:
I was once set apart as the ward unplanned party planner committee member. It is not a far stretch to say that they have also been set apart.


Now THERE's proof. Astounding what passes for proof and logic here.


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