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 Post subject: The Ethics Of Tithing And "worldly" Purchases
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 3:13 am 
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I posted this on MAD, ill repost it here.

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Im curious as to differing views of the ethics regarding the churches multiple "worldly" purchases of for profit business rather than spending the money on OBVOIUSLY needed charities or people that would use these funds to survive. With the issues arising in Darfur, the hurricanes, ect. Is it ethical that any church or outwardly charitable organization make investments into for profit businesses?

As an example, if the Red Cross was to invest into microsoft with the funds it had taken in from donations. What would be the reaction of the donators?

Keep in mind, im talking ethics only. Not doctrine.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:28 am 
He-Who-Has-Not-Sinned (Recently)
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All the debate's going on on MAD or I'd post here. Sorry.

O wait, I just posted here.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:03 am 
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heh, I've noticed. I should make another thread. I know its going to just insight flame wars, but still an interesting argument.

"Is Gordon B. Hinckley a prophet in purpose? or just name?"

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:46 am 
You two are naughty. ;)

Are you both just trying to get banned from MAD?

LOL


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:47 am 
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liz3564 wrote:
You two are naughty. ;)

Are you both just trying to get banned from MAD?

LOL


Hey, I posted on that thread, but no one responded. I wouldn't dare post here because they might ban me. Oops.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:54 am 
Runtu wrote:
liz3564 wrote:
You two are naughty. ;)

Are you both just trying to get banned from MAD?

LOL


Hey, I posted on that thread, but no one responded. I wouldn't dare post here because they might ban me. Oops.


LOL!

Now you're in for it. Wait until the MAD spies discover that you are a "God" here! :)


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:59 am 
He-Who-Has-Not-Sinned (Recently)
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liz3564 wrote:
Runtu wrote:
liz3564 wrote:
You two are naughty. ;)

Are you both just trying to get banned from MAD?

LOL


Hey, I posted on that thread, but no one responded. I wouldn't dare post here because they might ban me. Oops.


LOL!

Now you're in for it. Wait until the MAD spies discover that you are a "God" here! :)


I think they already know he's a God. Makes you wonder if Shades should have made the rankings higher than 1000. Soon there will be many gods around here, and I don't buy into polytheism.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:41 am 
What is a charity or religious organization supposed to do with its funds; spend all at once and leave it with no endowment for its future objectives?

If you admit that a charity or religious organization may retain an endowment, what is it supposed to do with it? Convert it to gold and bury it, or park it in investments?

The Red Cross has a huge endowment. If it spent it all in one month in Africa it would be out of business.

Harvard has one of the world's largest endowments. If it spent it all in one year it wouldn't be a university.


P


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 10:50 am 
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Plutarch wrote:
What is a charity or religious organization supposed to do with its funds; spend all at once and leave it with no endowment for its future objectives?

If you admit that a charity or religious organization may retain an endowment, what is it supposed to do with it? Convert it to gold and bury it, or park it in investments?

The Red Cross has a huge endowment. If it spent it all in one month in Africa it would be out of business.

Harvard has one of the world's largest endowments. If it spent it all in one year it wouldn't be a university.


P


You're quite right, Plutarch. I just find this artificial and often-crossed line between tithing funds and for-profit concerns to be ludicrous.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:05 am 
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Plutarch wrote:
What is a charity or religious organization supposed to do with its funds; spend all at once and leave it with no endowment for its future objectives?

If you admit that a charity or religious organization may retain an endowment, what is it supposed to do with it? Convert it to gold and bury it, or park it in investments?

The Red Cross has a huge endowment. If it spent it all in one month in Africa it would be out of business.

Harvard has one of the world's largest endowments. If it spent it all in one year it wouldn't be a university.


P


Is the Red Cross spending $6 billion on a shopping mall? Is Harvard buying city parks now?

And you have no idea what kind of resources the church has. The books are closed. For all you know, they mortgaged the temples to buy the shopping mall.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:54 am 
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liz3564 wrote:
Wait until the MAD spies discover that you are a "God" here! :)


Are you a God?

No?

Then . . . die!


(When somebody asks you if you're a God, you say "yes".)

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:55 am 
asbestosman wrote:
liz3564 wrote:
Wait until the MAD spies discover that you are a "God" here! :)


Are you a God?

No?

Then . . . die!


(When somebody asks you if you're a God, you say "yes".)


LOL! That was, by far, my FAVORITE part of Ghostbusters! Awesome movie!

Thanks for the smile! :)


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 11:56 am 
God
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Bond...James Bond wrote:
Soon there will be many gods around here, and I don't buy into polytheism.


Remember my sig line (the Deseret Alphabet one).

Anyhow, if polytheism doesn't work, what about Pantheism? How about Monotheism? What about Demitheism?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 12:00 pm 
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harmony wrote:
Is the Red Cross spending $6 billion on a shopping mall? Is Harvard buying city parks now?

And you have no idea what kind of resources the church has. The books are closed. For all you know, they mortgaged the temples to buy the shopping mall.


Does the Red Cross have for-profit businesses?

Since the books are closed, for all you know a white salamander appeared to them, told them to buy a shopping mall, and turned into $6 billion.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:30 pm 
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Ethics and the Mormon church they cancel each other out you know. So no they could care less about what is ethical, they only want to keep that CREDIT CARD a charging.

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 Post subject: Re: The Ethics Of Tithing And "worldly" Purchases
PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:50 pm 
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Sono_hito wrote:
I posted this on MAD, ill repost it here.

Quote:
Im curious as to differing views of the ethics regarding the churches multiple "worldly" purchases of for profit business rather than spending the money on OBVOIUSLY needed charities or people that would use these funds to survive. With the issues arising in Darfur, the hurricanes, ect. Is it ethical that any church or outwardly charitable organization make investments into for profit businesses?

As an example, if the Red Cross was to invest into microsoft with the funds it had taken in from donations. What would be the reaction of the donators?

Keep in mind, im talking ethics only. Not doctrine.


Shame on you. Making the TBMs actually think about something. When it comes to tithing, they're used to the usual pablum, "Pay your tithing and you will be blessed." Now you are asking them to actually think about the ethical responsibility their church leaders have with their donated money, and perhaps even hold them responsible? Are you serious?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:52 pm 
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OUT OF MY MISERY wrote:
Ethics and the Mormon church they cancel each other out you know. So no they could care less about what is ethical, they only want to keep that CREDIT CARD a charging.


On the topic of credit cards, when is the church going to put a paypal site on LDS.org to allow members to pay tithing on-line?


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 6:29 pm 
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SatanWasSetUp wrote:
OUT OF MY MISERY wrote:
Ethics and the Mormon church they cancel each other out you know. So no they could care less about what is ethical, they only want to keep that CREDIT CARD a charging.


On the topic of credit cards, when is the church going to put a paypal site on LDS.org to allow members to pay tithing on-line?


I doubt they will ever institute this, since it would make it much easier for the members to lie about paying a full tithe. With tithing settlements, it is much easier for bishops to put pressure on members, and essentially "guilt" them into paying up the full amount.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:12 pm 
harmony wrote:
Is the Red Cross spending $6 billion on a shopping mall? Is Harvard buying city parks now?

And you have no idea what kind of resources the church has. The books are closed. For all you know, they mortgaged the temples to buy the shopping mall.


It is not $6 billion. But, provide your reference for that amount, please. [I know its liking asking the moon for something when I ask for your references for your empty-headed nonsense.]

Harvard spends only 5% per year of its endowment. The rest is parked in investments, yielding in 2006 over 16%. You can't get that return from a diversified stock market portfolio. The endowment fund invests, among things, in income-producing real estate (exactly like the so-called $6 billion mall). The downtown Salt Lake mall is being managed by a mall developer who insists upon a customary economic return for such investments -- the very kind of investment in which the Harvard endowment fund is parked.

I suppose one could criticize Harvard for using contributions and tuition funds to buy real estate in downtown Manhattan, as such does not constitute buying buildings in Cambridge for students. But, if the Church didn't park this investment in downtown Salt Lake, it would be parked elsewhere and not spent.

But, before I continue to humor your empty mocking of the Brethren, I would appreciate a reference to your $6 billion claim. Since I represent mall developers and know what malls cost, I would love to see your cite. Please.


P


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:13 pm 
Mister Scratch wrote:
SatanWasSetUp wrote:
OUT OF MY MISERY wrote:
Ethics and the Mormon church they cancel each other out you know. So no they could care less about what is ethical, they only want to keep that CREDIT CARD a charging.


On the topic of credit cards, when is the church going to put a paypal site on LDS.org to allow members to pay tithing on-line?


I doubt they will ever institute this, since it would make it much easier for the members to lie about paying a full tithe. With tithing settlements, it is much easier for bishops to put pressure on members, and essentially "guilt" them into paying up the full amount.


You obviously have not been through any tithing settlements.

P


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 7:16 pm 
Master Mahan

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Plutarch wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:
SatanWasSetUp wrote:
OUT OF MY MISERY wrote:
Ethics and the Mormon church they cancel each other out you know. So no they could care less about what is ethical, they only want to keep that CREDIT CARD a charging.


On the topic of credit cards, when is the church going to put a paypal site on LDS.org to allow members to pay tithing on-line?


I doubt they will ever institute this, since it would make it much easier for the members to lie about paying a full tithe. With tithing settlements, it is much easier for bishops to put pressure on members, and essentially "guilt" them into paying up the full amount.


You obviously have not been through any tithing settlements.

P


Great retort, Plu! And yet it does nothing to combat my assertion. All it proves is your blind faith that every bishop is a stand-up guy, who never lays on the guilt with certain members.

Edited to add: You know, the more I think about this, maybe it would be better for the Church to hand tithing payment electronically. Perhaps they could insist on full access to members' financial statements, so as to ensure a full tithe from all.


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