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 Post subject: Friendly with apostates--maybe it's bad after all
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:49 pm 
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Lately I've been thinking that trying to be nice and see things from the apostate point of view is not a virtue. I seem to be out of tune with the faithful on important issues such as gay marriage. Maybe I've been more worried about being fair than about being righteous (or self-righteous--I don't care at this point). The more I think about it, the more I think that I've only been making my own life harder when I try. Who am I to think I know better than the prophets do about how the government should be? I'm much younger for one, but more importantly I was not called to give guidance to others. It seems to me then that what many think is a great strength, of say Katherine-the-Great, can easily become a weakness. It seems too easy to get priorities out of line.

The more I look at others in my family, the more they tell me that this stuff is not interesting to them--they have other priorities. The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to agree. While I think it can be entertaining, I also think that the negatives of getting out of touch with the faithful may not be worth it.

Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Friendly with apostates--maybe it's bad after all
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:27 pm 
asbestosman wrote:
It seems to me then that what many think is a great strength, of say Katherine-the-Great, can easily become a weakness. It seems too easy to get priorities out of line.


I've seen all the kudos to KTG here. But she still hasn't posted here. "Twinkle, twinkle little star, how I what you [really] are". Obviously not one inclined to MDB. (Yet)

asbestosman wrote:
The more I look at others in my family, the more they tell me that this stuff is not interesting to them--they have other priorities. The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to agree. While I think it can be entertaining, I also think that the negatives of getting out of touch with the faithful may not be worth it.

Thoughts? [My emphasis]


Mormonism has virtues I'd latch on to in five seconds. Tolerance for different viewpoints isn't one of them, at least not among the "TBMs" today. Hammer makes me want to puke as much as "Mercury" does (and BC empty-space has to be the greatest TURN OFF for Mormonism I can possibly imagine). I recommend Runtu's blog for some more sober assessments (though you probably already read it).

http://runtu.wordpress.com/

This guy is the most sincere ex-Mormon I know. (Not discovered without trial and error on my part)


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:37 pm 
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More and more, you seem like a wet exmo(think opposite of the "dry mormon" investigator).

Someone hand him a towel, he is shivering!

My wife was very active for three years after I went completely inactive.

One thing that helped her see the truth was reading the exit stories on the RfM story board.

So, IMO, unless you are an egotistical mo'pologetic asshole with a huge self righteous chip on your shoulder, I'd say your association with us so called apostates, can at the very least, knock the testimonkey off your back. There are many closet exmos who continue with the façade to keep the peace at home.

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 Post subject: Re: Friendly with apostates--maybe it's bad after all
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:33 am 
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asbestosman wrote:
Lately I've been thinking that trying to be nice and see things from the apostate point of view is not a virtue. I seem to be out of tune with the faithful on important issues such as gay marriage. Maybe I've been more worried about being fair than about being righteous (or self-righteous--I don't care at this point). The more I think about it, the more I think that I've only been making my own life harder when I try. Who am I to think I know better than the prophets do about how the government should be? I'm much younger for one, but more importantly I was not called to give guidance to others. It seems to me then that what many think is a great strength, of say Katherine-the-Great, can easily become a weakness. It seems too easy to get priorities out of line.

The more I look at others in my family, the more they tell me that this stuff is not interesting to them--they have other priorities. The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to agree. While I think it can be entertaining, I also think that the negatives of getting out of touch with the faithful may not be worth it.

Thoughts?


I have several thoughts about this Asbestos, but first let me thank you for asking this question. You mention Katherine-the Great. I have admired her for saying what she believes is right, regardless of the party line. I see you as having that quality too. The are a number of people around here that seem to possess those traits. Even as non-believers, can we not see them in Runtu and Blixa? This trait to stick up for the noble and true, despite its popularity or seeming congruence with the faithful or faithless, seems a mark of something genuinely worthwhile. I would hope you could nurture that in yourself and let it make you a better Mormon and human being.

As far as getting you out of touch with the faithful, I would respond to say it would make you a better leader for keeping a clear and open mind. That is clearly needed. As far as your youthfulness, that will change soon enough.

Best to keep the more esoteric internet stuff to yourself and not the family. Most eccentrics know not to share their long studied bird calls or fishing lures at the dinner table.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:43 am 
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I think this is probably a real issue for believers to grapple with, and is why many believers have taken the more combative, aggressive stance against exmos, versus the real attempt to understand and communicate.

I don't know what the answer is for you, asbman - but I suspect you don't have the prerequisite degree of arrogance that would enable you to adopt the combative, aggressive stance.

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 Post subject: Re: Friendly with apostates--maybe it's bad after all
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 5:00 am 
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asbestosman wrote:
Lately I've been thinking that trying to be nice and see things from the apostate point of view is not a virtue. I seem to be out of tune with the faithful on important issues such as gay marriage. Maybe I've been more worried about being fair than about being righteous (or self-righteous--I don't care at this point). The more I think about it, the more I think that I've only been making my own life harder when I try. Who am I to think I know better than the prophets do about how the government should be? I'm much younger for one, but more importantly I was not called to give guidance to others. It seems to me then that what many think is a great strength, of say Katherine-the-Great, can easily become a weakness. It seems too easy to get priorities out of line.

The more I look at others in my family, the more they tell me that this stuff is not interesting to them--they have other priorities. The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to agree. While I think it can be entertaining, I also think that the negatives of getting out of touch with the faithful may not be worth it.

Thoughts?


Open mindedness will cause you to stray from the faithful of about any "one true religion". It may even cause family problems. OTOH, maybe this is who you are. How does one get rid of skepticism?


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 Post subject: Re: Friendly with apostates--maybe it's bad after all
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:23 am 
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Yong Xi wrote:
How does one get rid of skepticism?


Find certainty.

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"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo


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 Post subject: Re: Friendly with apostates--maybe it's bad after all
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:37 am 
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asbestosman wrote:
Lately I've been thinking that trying to be nice and see things from the apostate point of view is not a virtue.


But is the opposite a virtue?

Quote:
I seem to be out of tune with the faithful on important issues such as gay marriage.


You say that like it's a bad thing.

Quote:
Maybe I've been more worried about being fair than about being righteous (or self-righteous--I don't care at this point).


Being fair IS being righteous.

Quote:
The more I think about it, the more I think that I've only been making my own life harder when I try.


Of course. Since the dawn of humanity, there's been no surer way of making one's life difficult than by thinking.

Why should you be any different?

Quote:
Who am I to think I know better than the prophets do about how the government should be?


Who are you to think you know better than Joseph Smith about the rightness of taking a 14 year-old girl to bed?

Quote:
I'm much younger for one, but more importantly I was not called to give guidance to others.


So? Brigham Young was called to give guidance to others, and he guided the Saints into believing that Adam & God are the same person.

Quote:
It seems to me then that what many think is a great strength, of say Katherine-the-Great, can easily become a weakness. It seems too easy to get priorities out of line.


Is your priority to learn truth, or is your priority to blindly follow?

Quote:
The more I look at others in my family, the more they tell me that this stuff is not interesting to them--they have other priorities.


That's correct. As we've seen above, thinking makes one's life difficult. Their priorities are to follow, not to think.

Quote:
The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to agree.


That's scary. You're starting to see the wisdom in turning off your brain.

Quote:
While I think it can be entertaining, I also think that the negatives of getting out of touch with the faithful may not be worth it.


Just what are the so-called "negatives" of getting out of touch with the faithful? Approximately 30,000 missionaries worldwide are working full-time to get people out of touch with their own faithful. Are they wrong to do so?

Quote:
Thoughts?


Yeah. You're considering abdicating your right to think. The moment you consent to that, you've crossed from "member" into "cultist."

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:59 am 
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Time and time again on these boards, it is said that we should not blindly follow the prophets (although the local leaders teach this unceasingly).

Now you're saying you want to go back to blindly following?

Plus, I don't think it's possible for you. You know too much. You HAVE been open minded, which if I may venture a guess, is just who you are. Your attempts to close your mind will ultimately end up frustrating you.

I think that perhaps you need these boards as a outlet. Showing open-mindedness in the culture of Mormonism is not welcomed.

Also, one last question...what exactly do you think the modern prophets are more knowledgeable than you are about? Just gay marriage? Or are there other aspects?

I don't see any modern leaders saying anything that isn't just common sense. Don't gamble, do drugs or watch porn, love your families, be honest, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Friendly with apostates--maybe it's bad after all
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:26 am 
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asbestosman wrote:
Lately I've been thinking that trying to be nice and see things from the apostate point of view is not a virtue. I seem to be out of tune with the faithful on important issues such as gay marriage. Maybe I've been more worried about being fair than about being righteous (or self-righteous--I don't care at this point). The more I think about it, the more I think that I've only been making my own life harder when I try. Who am I to think I know better than the prophets do about how the government should be? I'm much younger for one, but more importantly I was not called to give guidance to others. It seems to me then that what many think is a great strength, of say Katherine-the-Great, can easily become a weakness. It seems too easy to get priorities out of line.

The more I look at others in my family, the more they tell me that this stuff is not interesting to them--they have other priorities. The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to agree. While I think it can be entertaining, I also think that the negatives of getting out of touch with the faithful may not be worth it.

Thoughts?


Every thinking person has a responsibility to look at life issue according to their own best judgment and not simply acquiesce to a large organization.
Looking at the judgement of prophets of prior generations on social issues (we now say they were speaking as men etc.) it becomes clear that it is indeed possible that ABMan's judgement may be superior to that of the the old businessmen who worked there way up the ranks of the Mormon church.

Individual conscience!

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 Post subject: Re: Friendly with apostates--maybe it's bad after all
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:16 am 
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asbestosman wrote:
Lately I've been thinking that trying to be nice and see things from the apostate point of view is not a virtue. I seem to be out of tune with the faithful on important issues such as gay marriage. Maybe I've been more worried about being fair than about being righteous (or self-righteous--I don't care at this point). The more I think about it, the more I think that I've only been making my own life harder when I try. Who am I to think I know better than the prophets do about how the government should be? I'm much younger for one, but more importantly I was not called to give guidance to others. It seems to me then that what many think is a great strength, of say Katherine-the-Great, can easily become a weakness. It seems too easy to get priorities out of line.

The more I look at others in my family, the more they tell me that this stuff is not interesting to them--they have other priorities. The more I think about it, the more I'm starting to agree. While I think it can be entertaining, I also think that the negatives of getting out of touch with the faithful may not be worth it.

Thoughts?



I totally sympathize with you asbestos. I was at a similar point a few years ago when I was looking around seeing myself in disagreement with the vast majority of the faithful on what I considered moral issues, like war, environment, etc. Like you, who was I to buck what the most inspired people on the planet - with a prophet leading them - thought about these moral issues? I'm sure my answer to this conundrum would only amplify the crux of your issue, but I wanted to lend you a bit of support. (we actually chatted a bit on FAIR a while back - I was 'Enish')

As a quick advocation of a 'third way', I personally think to be true to the core issue of Mormonism - becoming a God - we have to actually throw off much of Mormon thought and habit. One does not become a Master by being the best servant possible. I.e., obedience is the first law of heaven in that it needs to be broken. Maybe that's a bit more Taoist than you a comfortable with at the moment, but I have little doubt that the idea of Nephi telling God no to killing Laban at least somewhat resonates with you.

I suspect with a more third way approach - Moksha's advice is stellar - you can find a way to be continue to be both fair and righteous (definitions may need constant retooling).


Last edited by NorthboundZax on Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:19 am 
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"I wish to notice this. We read in the Bible, that there is one glory of the sun, another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars. In the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, the glories are called, telestial, terrestrial, and celestial, which is the highest. These are worlds, different departments, or mansions, in our Father's house. Now those men, or those women, who know no more about the power of God, and the influence of the Holy Spirit, than to be led entirely by another person, suspending their own understanding, and pinning their fate upon another's sleeve, will never be capable of entering into the celestial glory, to be crowned as they anticipate; they will never be capable of becoming Gods. They cannot rule themselves to say nothing of ruling others, but they must be dictated to in every trifle, like a child. They cannot control themselves in the least, but James, Peter, or somebody else must control them. They never can become Gods, nor be crowned as rulers with glory, immortality, and eternal lives. They never can hold scepters of glory, majesty, and power in the celestial kingdom. Who will? Those who are valiant and inspired with the true independence of heaven, who will go forth boldly in the service of their God, leaving others to do as they please, determined to do right, though all mankind besides should take the opposite course. Will this apply to any of you? Your own hearts can answer."

-Brigham Young

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:03 am 
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beastie wrote:
I don't know what the answer is for you, asbman - but I suspect you don't have the prerequisite degree of arrogance that would enable you to adopt the combative, aggressive stance.

Some still consider me arrogant although it's hard to be arrogant when you finally realize you aren't all that great (at least not past the high school level). Either way, it is not my intention to adopt a combative, agressive stance as that seems to be contrary to Elder Ballard's words.

Dr. Shades wrote:
Quote:
Maybe I've been more worried about being fair than about being righteous (or self-righteous--I don't care at this point).
Being fair IS being righteous.

Fairness by God's standards is righteous, not necessarily our standards. Is it fair that some are born in free countries and can learn about the gospel while others are born in poverty in countries where they will not have that chance? No, but God sends spirits to both places. I think that is a righteous thing for God to do.

Dr. Shades wrote:
Quote:
It seems to me then that what many think is a great strength, of say Katherine-the-Great, can easily become a weakness. It seems too easy to get priorities out of line.
Is your priority to learn truth, or is your priority to blindly follow?

My priority is (or should be) to obey the Truth. It is not blindly following. It is following the best course--the one which has been proven through my experience, and the experiences of many others including my family and experiences recorded in scripture. It is faith obedience. It is similar to following the doctor's orders. I do so because I know he knows better than I do. I don't just blindly follow the doctor because I was told to.

Scottie wrote:
Now you're saying you want to go back to blindly following?

See previous reply to Dr. Shades. Obeying a physician is not blindly following.

Scottie wrote:
Also, one last question...what exactly do you think the modern prophets are more knowledgeable than you are about? Just gay marriage? Or are there other aspects?

They are more knowledgable about keeping us in harmony with God's will and with correct behavior. They can answer the "oughts" much better than I can because they are qualified for that. That does not mean I am abdicating my responsibility to think, but rather as with a physician's orders I should never think I know better than them. I can, however, always ask for clarification. On the rare occasion I need a "second opinion" I can go through the proper channels. However, clarification is usually sufficient since it is God who leads them.


Tarski wrote:
Looking at the judgement of prophets of prior generations on social issues (we now say they were speaking as men etc.) it becomes clear that it is indeed possible that ABMan's judgement may be superior to that of the the old businessmen who worked there way up the ranks of the Mormon church.

Flattery might have worked, but I'm afraid I really am getting to know myself better over the years. It has become clear that I embarass myself when I attempt to correct experts. It is also clear to me that my judgment is not superior to that of my family and friends who I know. I think it therefore likely that my judgment is not superior to that of the prophet--especially when time and again it is shown that following them brings happiness.

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 Post subject: Re: Friendly with apostates--maybe it's bad after all
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:13 am 
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The Nehor wrote:
Yong Xi wrote:
How does one get rid of skepticism?


Find certainty.


I am skeptical that can be done.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:16 am 
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Quote:
I think it therefore likely that my judgment is not superior to that of the prophet--especially when time and again it is shown that following them brings happiness.


Like it did for the early polygamists? Or the men who handed their wives over to Joseph Smith? Or for gay people who have the misfortune of being born LDS? Or for anyone who doesn't fit a preconceived LDS mold?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:26 am 
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I read this thread last night when you posted it, asbestosman, and didn't know what to say to you. I wanted to say what Tarski said, yet, didn't feel comfortable doing so. I hope you can find a happy medium where you feel free to question, think, find your own path and still find peace within your religion. I sincerely hope that you can do so!


Last edited by Moniker on Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:34 am 
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beastie wrote:
Quote:
I think it therefore likely that my judgment is not superior to that of the prophet--especially when time and again it is shown that following them brings happiness.


Like it did for the early polygamists? Or the men who handed their wives over to Joseph Smith? Or for gay people who have the misfortune of being born LDS? Or for anyone who doesn't fit a preconceived LDS mold?


In my experience it brings more happiness to obey than to disobey even though it's not always easy to do so.


Moniker wrote:
I hope you can find a happy medium where you feel free to question, think, find your own path and still find peace within your religion.

If I don't think and learn, I won't be living my religion.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:55 am 
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asbestosman wrote:
In my experience it brings more happiness to obey than to disobey even though it's not always easy to do so.


That is certainly the case if one puts a premium on the notion of obedience, as any departure will necessarily be accompanied with negative baggage. It's not easy to enact from a TBM starting point, but once you can drop all premiums on obedience, I guarantee you will find even more happiness in embracing what your conscience dictates - even if in disagreement with church counsel (e.g., advocating gay marriage).

For some reason, however, I get the feeling that your issue here goes well beyond this type of measure of personal happiness - such as the price on specific relationships. Those can be more difficult to navigate when one weights various morality issues differently than the person's loved ones, but definitely surmountable with some effort. I apologize if I'm reading that wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Friendly with apostates--maybe it's bad after all
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:17 pm 
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Yong Xi wrote:
The Nehor wrote:
Yong Xi wrote:
How does one get rid of skepticism?


Find certainty.


I am skeptical that can be done.


I'm skeptical that it can't.

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 Post subject: Re: Friendly with apostates--maybe it's bad after all
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:40 pm 
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The Nehor wrote:
Yong Xi wrote:
How does one get rid of skepticism?


Find certainty.


Or just do what Mormons do and fake certainty.

the "I know with every fiber of my being" crap is a fool hearty technique of making yourself convinced that an impossibly stupid situation might have occurred.

Ignorance is all that remains after one removes skepticism.

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 Post subject: Re: Friendly with apostates--maybe it's bad after all
PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:47 pm 
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Mercury wrote:
Or just do what Mormons do and fake certainty.

the "I know with every fiber of my being" crap is a fool hearty technique of making yourself convinced that an impossibly stupid situation might have occurred.

Ignorance is all that remains after one removes skepticism.


I don't fake certainty. You might have. That would be you projecting again.

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