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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:57 pm 
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I'm just a normal man. Well, probably a whole lot more manly than many of the "men" I see posting on this board. Most of them have been so utterly emasculated by our oppressive modern feminazi culture that they are only a couple of testosterone molecules shy of being eunuchs.



I'm sure being a Drama Queen results in the exaggerated need to prove one's maleness, too, as in referring to how females would look in tank tops.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2008 6:14 pm 
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The Nehor wrote:
antishock8 wrote:
The Nehor wrote:
antishock8 wrote:
Which is my word to the Gentile, that soon it may go to the Jew, of whom the Lamanites are a remnant, that they may believe the gospel, and, look not for a Messiah to come who has already come.


Is this a rebuttal? Are you suggesting that the Lamanites would not be a remnant of the House of Israel in this case?


No. It's a statement of canon. Please provide a reference for your earlier supposition.


I tried, you told me I was ignorant about war without explaining why. In addition, you have Mormon bragging about being a pure Nephite, the quick absorption of foreign elements (Zoramites picked up new religion very quickly), and the boast of enemies not having power over the Nephites when the Lamanites and Nephites were under one government (I.e. there was someone else out there).


Reference for your earlier supposition, please.

->
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That the Lehite family quickly mingled genetically with pre-existing inhabitants and the Mulekites (a mutt breed themselves) and that genetically their descendants would be indistinguishable from earlier migrant groups.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:15 am 
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Who Knows wrote:
William Schryver wrote:
WK wrote:
- Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas, and that native americans came exclusively from them.

No, he didn’t.


What? Are you serious? Ever heard of the wentworth letter?



I'm going to pretend to be an apologist and say that since the Wentworth letter was "updated" in the new Joseph Smith manual, that's the only official version and it says nothing about NAs being the original inhabitants of the americas. Besides, joseph Smith was like 15 Prophets ago. The living prophets and apostles are above the dead ones in the prophet org chart.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:22 am 
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SatanWasSetUp wrote:
Who Knows wrote:
William Schryver wrote:
WK wrote:
- Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas, and that native americans came exclusively from them.

No, he didn’t.


What? Are you serious? Ever heard of the wentworth letter?



I'm going to pretend to be an apologist and say that since the Wentworth letter was "updated" in the new Joseph Smith manual, that's the only official version and it says nothing about NAs being the original inhabitants of the americas. Besides, joseph Smith was like 15 Prophets ago. The living prophets and apostles are above the dead ones in the prophet org chart.


Are you serious about the bits in bold? You mean they have actually changed the text of a letter written by Joseph Smith to a newspaper?

Of course we already know about the live prophets trumping the dead ones ... though another way of putting it would be to say that modern LDS would be apostates so far as 19th C. LDS would have been concerned.

But it is very odd if live prophets actually have the power to make dead ones say or write things they did not actually say or write when they were alive. That is scary.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 8:47 am 
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Chap wrote:
But it is very odd if live prophets actually have the power to make dead ones say or write things they did not actually say or write when they were alive. That is scary.


Not odd at all. Revision has been going on since the beginning. Look how many times the First Vision was revised!


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:14 am 
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harmony wrote:

Not odd at all. Revision has been going on since the beginning. Look how many times the First Vision was revised!


I cringe everytime I hear, "How could an uneducated farm boy write the BofM." Twice now, my responce has been IRL, "uneducated farm boy? Lets get this straight:

First off, he was in his twenties.

Second he did have some education.

Third, he was rather clever and quite intellegent enough. Whether you view him as one of the greatest Prophets that ever lived, or as one of the trickiest charlatans that ever tricked his tricks, he was smart enough.

And last, have you ever gone through the original BofM? It's riddled with mistakes. Thousands! They've had to make literally thousands of corrections since the first version.

Mind you, most were insignificant gramatical errors, but isn't that what you'd expect from a less educated farm boy? Some mistakes were bigger - like having King Benjamin appear later in the story as if the author forgot that he had already been killed off. And the fact that everywhere it states "even Jesus and the Eternal Father ..." originally read " ... even Jesus the Eternal Father" (or close, I'm not reading the actual text) as if the idea of seperating Jesus and Heavanly Father was an after thought.

Yes, I can see very easily how a small time farm boy could have written this." (Even though I think he had help)

I've said this to my home teaching companion when we were talking about dumb things in the church and to my wife when discussing the "brilliance" of the book.

My point is how much the "most perfect book" had to be revised and changed.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:28 am 
Chap wrote:
Are you serious about the bits in bold? You mean they have actually changed the text of a letter written by Joseph Smith to a newspaper?


I'm curious about this as well.

SatanWasSetUp, do you have any side by side quotes you could provide? I would be interested in reading the original in contrast with the revised.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:34 am 
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See here.

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WK: "Joseph Smith asserted that the Book of Mormon peoples were the original inhabitants of the americas"
Will Schryver: "No, he didn’t." 3/19/08
Still waiting for Will to back this up...


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 9:41 am 
Who Knows wrote:
See here.


Thanks, WK!

I missed this!

;)


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:09 am 
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Who Knows wrote:
See here.


And yet Will and his ilk will continue to argue that this was never taught and that those who believe it are silly fanatics.

Do people like Will ever sit back, reflect, and actually feel a bit silly for all the dumb things they say?

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:23 am 
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guy sajer wrote:
Who Knows wrote:
See here.


And yet Will and his ilk will continue to argue that this was never taught and that those who believe it are silly fanatics.

Do people like Will ever sit back, reflect, and actually feel a bit silly for all the dumb things they say?


No, they do not. For them as long as they respond in a wildly nonsensical way that in of itself is enough to calm their cognitive alarm bells. I repeat. As long as they respond in a wildly nonsensical way... that... in of itself.. is enough to put their minds at ease. Ad homs just help them forget the original point being stressed.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:40 am 
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Do you ever wonder if this site is some kind of "play ground" for the likes of Will and gang. They know good and well what they are saying is silliness. They still have faith in the church, but sometimes they just want to act out some dark fantasies where there are no rules and they can just throw mindless thoughts and ideas and "spar with the enemy" with no accountability. You know, while no one's looking.

"Here, watch this. Get a load of this. I'm going to throw this hairless, toothless, weak dog into the fight and watch the fun. Who cares what they think. It's just fun to play with them."

Then we answer back as if they are sincere.

This is how I felt yesterday after having some exchange with Will where I thought some level of intelligent ideas were being brought out. Then suddenly, he turns on Liz like some spoiled middle school student with about the same manners. It was shocking to me. Then I thought, this guy is a joke. He isn't here for thoughtful discussion, this is a game to him. Some place to just "mess around". Make jabs at the opostates and watch them squirm.

After reading further posts, it became evident that no sane person would be making these kind of statements. They're just posting with only one rule in mind. Say whatever you want, but never, ever give in. Loosing is not an option.

$.02

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:45 am 
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Ten Bear wrote:
Do you ever wonder if this site is some kind of "play ground" for the likes of Will and gang. They know good and well what they are saying is silliness. They still have faith in the church, but sometimes they just want to act out some dark fantasies where there are no rules and they can just throw mindless thoughts and ideas and "spar with the enemy" with no accountability. You know, while no one's looking.

"Here, watch this. Get a load of this. I'm going to throw this hairless, toothless, weak dog into the fight and watch the fun. Who cares what they think. It's just fun to play with them."

Then we answer back as if they are sincere.

This is how I felt yesterday after having some exchange with Will where I thought some level of intelligent ideas were being brought out. Then suddenly, he turns on Liz like some spoiled middle school student with about the same manners. It was shocking to me. Then I thought, this guy is a joke. He isn't here for thoughtful discussion, this is a game to him. Some place to just "mess around". Make jabs at the opostates and watch them squirm.

After reading further posts, it became evident that no sane person would be making these kind of statements. They're just posting with only one rule in mind. Say whatever you want, but never, ever give in. Loosing is not an option.

$.02


I think you're right, but I also think they really do believe. But you're right, there is a pattern -- whenever they get close to learning something, they turn to ad hom. It's happened so much I've concluded it is a self-preservation defense mechanism. If they can personally attack somebody else, they don't have to risk losing their very strong convictions, clearly based on strong egos.

(my $.015)

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[Certainty (that one is correct) is often the most dangerous enemy of the
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:56 am 
Ten Bear wrote:
This is how I felt yesterday after having some exchange with Will where I thought some level of intelligent ideas were being brought out. Then suddenly, he turns on Liz like some spoiled middle school student with about the same manners. It was shocking to me. Then I thought, this guy is a joke. He isn't here for thoughtful discussion, this is a game to him. Some place to just "mess around". Make jabs at the apostates and watch them squirm.


And I would like to thank you, again, Ten Bear, for being the gentleman you are, and jumping to my defense. It was very appreciated.

I was also actually rather shocked at the rudeness and viciousness that Will exhibited here yesterday.

Having read many of his posts on FAIR/MAD, I had always enjoyed and learned from his posts, even if I didn't always agree with his stances. I was impressed with his overall knowledge. Then, a few months ago, he started vehemently attacking Runtu, both at MAD, and here. I really didn't understand this. Arguing positions is one thing. Getting personal is quite another. Runtu, to my knowledge, has never viciously attacked anyone on a personal level. He has always been very kind to others, and, like myself, has been labeled as a bit of a "board nanny" when personal insults have started to fly. LOL

As many of you are aware who know me here, I am an "equal opportunity profaner", Coggins so eloquently put it. I have friends on this board who are critics, and friends on this board who are believers. I have defended both when ad homs have flown out of control. I have gotten into brawls with both Bob Crockett and Infymus, for example, on the same issue of ad hom insults flying. They are about as opposite in their views as you can possibly get! Do I respect both of them? Yes. Do they both know that if they inadvertantly attack a friend of mine on the board without cause that I will say something to them? Yes.

How I treated Will was no different.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:01 am 
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Ten Bear wrote:

After reading further posts, it became evident that no sane person would be making these kind of statements. They're just posting with only one rule in mind. Say whatever you want, but never, ever give in. Loosing is not an option.


In my experience talking with folks like Will, BC Space, Charity, etc. their #1 guiding principle appears to be to never concede any point, no matter how reasonable, no matter how untenable their own position is. They can concede small, obvious points and still not lose the fight, necessarily, but they refuse to do this. Willingness to concede the obvious is not a sign of weakness, and even the best arguments have flaws in them that an honstely reflective person would concede, and one can be right overall but still make certain arguments that are not well-founded.

But, if you go the rounds with the internet apologists, few of them are ever willing to make any concessions whatsoever. In other words, their arguments (no matter how much they violate common sense, or no matter how much they would never, ever make similar arguments in any other context) are, in their own minds, absolutely, positively perfect. No holes, no flaws, nothing not quite perfectly thought through. It's really an amazing spectacle.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:23 am 
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Ten Bear wrote:
Do you ever wonder if this site is some kind of "play ground" for the likes of Will and gang. They know good and well what they are saying is silliness. They still have faith in the church, but sometimes they just want to act out some dark fantasies where there are no rules and they can just throw mindless thoughts and ideas and "spar with the enemy" with no accountability. You know, while no one's looking.

"Here, watch this. Get a load of this. I'm going to throw this hairless, toothless, weak dog into the fight and watch the fun. Who cares what they think. It's just fun to play with them."

Then we answer back as if they are sincere.

This is how I felt yesterday after having some exchange with Will where I thought some level of intelligent ideas were being brought out. Then suddenly, he turns on Liz like some spoiled middle school student with about the same manners. It was shocking to me. Then I thought, this guy is a joke. He isn't here for thoughtful discussion, this is a game to him. Some place to just "mess around". Make jabs at the opostates and watch them squirm.

After reading further posts, it became evident that no sane person would be making these kind of statements. They're just posting with only one rule in mind. Say whatever you want, but never, ever give in. Loosing is not an option.

$.02


Thanks for saying this. This is the reason I've been absent the last few weeks, though lurking now and then. No grand farewell posts but I think I'm close to being outta here. Don't want to get into it in this thread. Maybe I'll write more later. Suffice it to say that a few bullies can manage to reduce things to the trivial and nauseating far too quickly.

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Last edited by Blixa on Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:24 am 
I would hesitate in lumping Will in with BC and Charity. I have, at least, been able to carry on amicable conversations with both BC and Charity. Also, at least in prior conversations I have had with both BC and Charity, they have been willing to concede some points but not others, as would be expected in a debate forum.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:25 am 
Blixa wrote:
Suffice it to say that a few bullies can manage to reduce things to the trivial and nauseating level far too quickly.


:)

I think I just found my new sig line.

I hope you don't leave us completely, Blixa. Please stay in touch via email.

I'll PM you later.

:)


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:28 am 
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We could just transport offenders to Will's new planet (after all, he has graduated to being a God in real life) Assholia...

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:36 am 
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liz3564 wrote:
Blixa wrote:
Suffice it to say that a few bullies can manage to reduce things to the trivial and nauseating level far too quickly.


:)

I think I just found my new sig line.

I hope you don't leave us completely, Blixa. Please stay in touch via email.

I'll PM you later.

:)


Well thanks, though I went back and edited out "level" as I thought it read rather clumsy with it.

I'll probably write something about my thoughts in the next day or so and post it in the O/T forum.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2008 11:38 am 
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Blixa, take a vaca to the Goddess suite...the temps a nice 77, Bond looks marvelous in his silk thong, Mok's another Emeril, and the men behave. If they don't...we taser them and throw them in the basement. No bullies allowed.

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