Death of Tom Kimball

[_malkie]

I don't know of anyone who is excusing his abusive behaviour in any way, but some are genuinely mourning the Tom that they had come to like/love/admire. Such feelings are not always easy to turn off, and will take some time to work through.

That is so difficult. I think that part of this is an sort of an existential dilemma that humans have not roundly solved, namely, that evildoing is not easy to spot. And there is no perfect rule to predict it. That is scary as hell. And we rely on trust to function in human community and civilization. So it requires energy to watch out for it. It is difficult to manage uncertainty and to not have the comfort of certainty. I think that if we learn how to be better at managing uncertainty and coping in life without certainty, we will be better at dealing with the cognitive dissonance like this, less likely to seek easy answers as the easy way through, and therefore better at opposing evil.

I agree.

It's not only that evildoing is not easy to spot, but that it may be difficult to associate evildoing with someone you have known as an admirable person, even when presented with ample proof.

[Guest]

It's not only that evildoing is not easy to spot, but that it may be difficult to associate evildoing with someone you have known as an admirable person, even when presented with ample proof.

Definitely. As my parents like to say, people are not a bag of one kind of nuts. They're mixed. Even if someone appears like a good person, they are capable of extreme evil. It's hard to face that reality.

[_Kishkumen]

Thanks, Kish - I didn't take it as an attack.

There is no question that this is a painful time for a lot of people, and I am sorry for that pain.

[_Stem]

There is no way for us to start at the point of Tom's own beginning and find those decisions, those abuses that made him. We can't because we don't know his starting point. He never understood his own starting point. He had no say in his mind's capacity nor the environment in which he found himself. Its sad to imagine that what came of him was an unavoidable thing, set as a consequence of all that influenced him. Its sucks to think if anyone of us were found, by happenstance, born as him, with every physical attribute he had, including his own mind, his own place and time, each one of us would have ended up just as he did. we call him abuser and coward because it's so much easier to swallow. But it's hard to accept he was victim of everything that made him.

"But I never would have let my imagination go there, or would never have reached out to hurt another..." Yeah, I know. That's the point. You wouldn't have. But you have no idea what he was composed of. How can we possibly escape the conclusion that we have no choice, nor real free choice? So, so easy to demean each other as we disappear, one by one, pretending their mind's, their circumstance, their inevitable life was their fault. Nah...God's a fool for creating the beasts among us, set strategically to hurt us, then in some act of presumed "heroism" eternally demeans the beast, saving us from the drooling fangs he forced upon us. But it was for our own good and somehow it was for the beasts' good too.

[_moksha]

I do find it humorous that Juliann and Calm are running to Rosebud's defense though. LOL.

Sort of like "If Caligula beats up on Bambi then he is a friend of mine".

Wait a minute, are you suggesting Caligula was ever spurned? I think you crossed metaphors and were thinking of Godzilla. Godzilla and Bambi are locked in a star-crossed struggle in which the only way out is for Godzilla to step on Bambi. That is what the Mopologetics gals are hoping for, although they might also have a thing for Caligula (but that is purely speculation).

[_Meadowchik]

There is no way for us to start at the point of Tom's own beginning and find those decisions, those abuses that made him. We can't because we don't know his starting point. He never understood his own starting point. He had no say in his mind's capacity nor the environment in which he found himself. Its sad to imagine that what came of him was an unavoidable thing, set as a consequence of all that influenced him. Its sucks to think if anyone of us were found, by happenstance, born as him, with every physical attribute he had, including his own mind, his own place and time, each one of us would have ended up just as he did. we call him abuser and coward because it's so much easier to swallow. But it's hard to accept he was victim of everything that made him.

"But I never would have let my imagination go there, or would never have reached out to hurt another..." Yeah, I know. That's the point. You wouldn't have. But you have no idea what he was composed of. How can we possibly escape the conclusion that we have no choice, nor real free choice? So, so easy to demean each other as we disappear, one by one, pretending their mind's, their circumstance, their inevitable life was their fault. Nah...God's a fool for creating the beasts among us, set strategically to hurt us, then in some act of presumed "heroism" eternally demeans the beast, saving us from the drooling fangs he forced upon us. But it was for our own good and somehow it was for the beasts' good too.

We may not know why but we can know what to do. There are requirements for a level of human interaction and when the requirements aren't met, that level of intimacy is cut off. Casual friendships end. Professional relationships cease. People get divorced. People go to jail. And in the gray areas between steps like these, people get medical attention to help them adapt in ways that are better for human interaction. And to prevent the hidden proclivities from having opportunities in the first place, we require trust to be earned.

Boundaries themselves help train the beasts among us and the beasts within us.

[_Kishkumen]

Wait a minute, are you suggesting Caligula was ever spurned? I think you crossed metaphors and were thinking of Godzilla. Godzilla and Bambi are locked in a star-crossed struggle in which the only way out is for Godzilla to step on Bambi. That is what the Mopologetics gals are hoping for, although they might also have a thing for Caligula (but that is purely speculation).

Erm. . . Something like that? I also take juliann’s feminism seriously. I think she sees herself as primarily concerned about the problem of abuse here. She just has such a hatred of ex-Mos, critics, and unconventional Mormons that, yes, if Rosebud attacks John and Lindsay, well, isn’t Rosebud just right to do so? Since we know Rosebud’s history here, we can see, as can others such as our friend Dan Vogel, that Rosebud’s personal beefs are interfering with her cause.

[_Kishkumen]

There is no way for us to start at the point of Tom's own beginning and find those decisions, those abuses that made him. We can't because we don't know his starting point. He never understood his own starting point. He had no say in his mind's capacity nor the environment in which he found himself. Its sad to imagine that what came of him was an unavoidable thing, set as a consequence of all that influenced him. Its sucks to think if anyone of us were found, by happenstance, born as him, with every physical attribute he had, including his own mind, his own place and time, each one of us would have ended up just as he did. we call him abuser and coward because it's so much easier to swallow. But it's hard to accept he was victim of everything that made him.

"But I never would have let my imagination go there, or would never have reached out to hurt another..." Yeah, I know. That's the point. You wouldn't have. But you have no idea what he was composed of. How can we possibly escape the conclusion that we have no choice, nor real free choice? So, so easy to demean each other as we disappear, one by one, pretending their mind's, their circumstance, their inevitable life was their fault. Nah...God's a fool for creating the beasts among us, set strategically to hurt us, then in some act of presumed "heroism" eternally demeans the beast, saving us from the drooling fangs he forced upon us. But it was for our own good and somehow it was for the beasts' good too.

Pretty deep thoughts there, Stem. I can’t begin to fathom what made Tom tick or whether he was just forged that way or he had a choice. I can see the merits of the different arguments. I also think that people’s God concepts tend to be far too simplistic.

Meadowchik has some interesting and thoughtful things to say. I am not sure what I am adding, except I think it is difficult for victims of abuse and violence to process these abstract philosophical considerations at a time of deep pain.

[_Stem]

Erm. . . Something like that? I also take juliann’s feminism seriously. I think she sees herself as primarily concerned about the problem of abuse here. She just has such a hatred of ex-Mos, critics, and unconventional Mormons that, yes, if Rosebud attacks John and Lindsay, well, isn’t Rosebud just right to do so? Since we know Rosebud’s history here, we can see, as can others such as our friend Dan Vogel, that Rosebud’s personal beefs are interfering with her cause.

Rosebud's participation amounted to her talking at everyone insecurely declaring everyone else wrong even at times when there was no controversy under consideration, as I recall. She was an impossibly difficult person to communicate with. her couple of recent pieces people linked to about this Tom Kimball ordeal amounted to the same, it seemed to me. I agree, she seems to be very good at countering her own stated agenda.

[_Stem]

We may not know why but we can know what to do. There are requirements for a level of human interaction and when the requirements aren't met, that level of intimacy is cut off. Casual friendships end. Professional relationships cease. People get divorced. People go to jail. And in the gray areas between steps like these, people get medical attention to help them adapt in ways that are better for human interaction. And to prevent the hidden proclivities from having opportunities in the first place, we require trust to be earned.

Boundaries themselves help train the beasts among us and the beasts within us.

I tend to think if we were able to get a much better feel for cause and effect, in terms of human behavior where it comes from and how it's developed, we may be able to identify points in people's lives where some sort of intervention can keep them from destructive and abusive behavior. I'm feeling hopeful about any potential there. We can kill two birds with one stone if we can learn to shut down abusive behavior before it grows in an individual. We save the victim and the abuser in such a scenario.