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Don't Know what this is, (Don't Care) But KNOCK IT OFF!

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:54 am
by grindael
I got sent this message by someone from this board:

[violation of Universal Rule #3 deleted]

I'm assuming DCP is Dan Peterson. I don't know why anyone would send this to me, unless they are being lied to. But I'll say this, KNOCK IT OFF.

If someone is sending messages to DCP in my name, KNOCK IT OFF.

I don't like Mopologists for a variety of reasons, but I have ____ integrity and I'll be damned if I'll put up with anyone accusing me of "embarrassing" (stalking, inappropriate, etc. or the like) behavior or trying to blackmail me for something I didn't or wouldn't do.

So to any who think I would be "embarrassed" to make this public, ____ Off and find another person to blackmail.

Re: Don't Know what this is, (Don't Care) But KNOCK IT OFF!

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 8:59 am
by grindael
I just got another, and this person is just wrong.

[violation of Universal Rule #3 deleted]

Stop accusing me of ____ I didn't do. You are dead wrong.

Re: Don't Know what this is, (Don't Care) But KNOCK IT OFF!

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:18 am
by Doctor CamNC4Me
Who is the user sending those messages?

- Doc

Re: Don't Know what this is, (Don't Care) But KNOCK IT OFF!

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:13 am
by Kishkumen
I have received some complaints from DCP about these poison pen letters, and I have speculated as to the identity of the person sending them. My conclusion was that the person sending these messages either posts or lurks here and takes really good notes. For the record, I did not send these messages to grindael, and I think there are at least a handful of people out there who would be motivated to try to figure this out and investigate it.

Now, when we think of who might be motivated to do this to DCP, I don't think we can just assume that it is an anti-Mormon posting on this board. In our era of cyber-warfare, it is not paranoid to imagine that someone might do this to DCP as an attack on MormonDiscussions.com. DCP naturally assumes that the perp is a member of this board, and I do not fault him for that. It is an easy assumption to make. But, really, the person who is doing this is ultimately attacking the board, and knowingly so. Who would want to see MormonDiscussions.com taken out of commission?

I think there are some people who would, perhaps for very personal reasons.

Re: Don't Know what this is, (Don't Care) But KNOCK IT OFF!

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:17 am
by grindael
I will keep that to myself for now Doc. But I got another one, and this is simply laughable.

[violation of Universal Rule #3 deleted]

The reason why is that this person accused me with no evidence and had already (obviously) made up their mind it was me, instead of asking me, the told me to stop doing it.

Making this public is simply protecting myself from the blackmail that may be coming. If Shades wants to delete this threatening message to me, he can sure do so.

Re: Don't Know what this is, (Don't Care) But KNOCK IT OFF!

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:23 am
by Kishkumen
So, grindael, out of curiosity, have you asked for the evidence this person is relying on to draw this conclusion?

Frankly, I would be fascinated to see the evidence posted here, now that these email to you have been made public.

Oh, and I really don't see that the person in question is trying to blackmail you. Otherwise there would have been some kind of offer of a deal. Thus far, I have not seen anything that you have posted here suggests a deal to keep this thing quiet has been offered.

Perhaps you are only sending us part of these messages?

Re: Don't Know what this is, (Don't Care) But KNOCK IT OFF!

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:37 am
by Kishkumen
Mormon apologia and polemics have a history of cloak-and-dagger behavior. It seems to me that clandestine activity is, in a sense, at the heart of Mormonism. Sometimes it is to preserve what is sacred. Other times it is to engage in shenanigans. In any case, it is always fascinating.

Some folks may remember when DCP posted as Freethinker on ZLMB and then as himself, all in the same threads. Others may remember Derrick Evenson acting as a kind of double agent between Mormon apologists and the Tanners. At least he tried to play the part of some kind of secret agent. The internet has really enabled secret attacks against one's enemies. I may not ever fully know what has been done to me in retribution for my posts here.

I do know that I have received a couple of nasty anonymous emails from someone who used an anonymizing service. I think I know the ex-Mormon perpetrator of that spate of petty harassment. I was told some apologist had contacted my work supervisors to complain about me. I never confirmed that one. I received some vaguely threatening messages here at MormonDiscussions.com from someone claiming to be a relative of my spouse. That was creepy.

I have not, however, received creepy emails referring to my family members over a period of more than seven years. Honestly, that angers me to the core. I don't care that I rarely agree with the target of this harassment. It is still harassment, and it is not only wrong but probably also very illegal. And the fact that it is likely being used as a weapon against not only DCP but also this board makes me especially angry.

I know one person who might be motivated to take revenge on both this board and DCP. Someone who is intelligent enough to play the long game, take notes, and skillfully screw around with all of us. That person is not grindael, I have to say.

Re: Don't Know what this is, (Don't Care) But KNOCK IT OFF!

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:39 am
by grindael
Kish,

The blackmail, is the threat to make public that I'm some kind of stalker. Can you imagine the response if I didn't jump on this and head it off? If that was the private message to me, the public one would have been just as bad. I just took that off the table.

I didn't ask for any evidence, because there is none that concerns me. They are simply wrong. I've never messaged DCP, ever. This person jumped the gun, and then doubled down in the second message. I'm pissed.

Let them come out with their "evidence", if they have any. You all can debate it till the world ends. At least now, people will know what I've been accused of and that they threatened me.

I take this very seriously. As I told them, I will protect myself.

Re: Don't Know what this is, (Don't Care) But KNOCK IT OFF!

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:45 am
by grindael
My name is Johnny Stephenson.

I'm an independent historian. I'm not hiding behind any avatar. People know who I am. I have an editor waiting on my John Whitmer presentation, I have another waiting for my book manuscript.

I am as transparent as can be. I'm not a ____ stalker. But I've exposed a few who stalked me and harassed me off of Facebook years ago. Mopologists. Don't know if this is some kind of revenge or not, I've obviously made enemies.

I'm right here. Take your best shot. (Remember: This person said that "we" have investigated)

Re: Don't Know what this is, (Don't Care) But KNOCK IT OFF!

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:45 am
by Dr Exiled
Has anyone, independent of Dr. Peterson, actually seen the alleged emails?

Re: Don't Know what this is, (Don't Care) But KNOCK IT OFF!

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:45 am
by Doctor CamNC4Me
To the lurker/blackmailing agent in question,

I hereby state that if you don't publish these supposed emails you'll be considered persona non grata at all future Cassius events, to include our annual Christmas party.

Be advised.

- Doc

Re: Don't Know what this is, (Don't Care) But KNOCK IT OFF!

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:47 am
by Lemmie
Another side of the coin is that we have only heard about these letters from DCP himself. The nature of what he reports, the frequency of his reports, and his use of them to accuse various usernames from this board (even though he insists the messages are sent anonymously and therefore untraceable), combined with his propensity to not be honest in his dealings with others in a variety of settings make me suspicious.

ETA: I see exiled just posted a similar concern.

Re: Don't Know what this is, (Don't Care) But KNOCK IT OFF!

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:50 am
by Lemmie
From a message grindeal received:

[violation of Universal Rule #3 deleted]

How does it discredit this board if the messages were “anonymous enough to afford him no clues”?

Re: Don't Know what this is, (Don't Care) But KNOCK IT OFF!

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:51 am
by Doctor CamNC4Me
No one has seen any of these supposed emails, and the one or two times Mr. Peterson has provided excerpts they were laughably bad, as if Mr. Peterson himself dreamt up what he thought someone from "Slimeville" might write.

- Doc

Re: Don't Know what this is, (Don't Care) But KNOCK IT OFF!

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:52 am
by Kishkumen
Kish,

The blackmail, is the threat to make public that I'm some kind of stalker. Can you imagine the response if I didn't jump on this and head it off? If that was the private message to me, the public one would have been just as bad. I just took that off the table.

I didn't ask for any evidence, because there is none that concerns me. They are simply wrong. I've never messaged DCP, ever. This person jumped the gun, and then doubled down in the second message. I'm pissed.

Let them come out with their "evidence", if they have any. You all can debate it till the world ends. At least now, people will know what I've been accused of and that they threatened me.

I take this very seriously. As I told them, I will protect myself.


Yeah, I see what you are saying, grindael. One takes a real risk in holding out the prospect that publishing the information would be really bad for you. It is easily interpreted as a threat, whether it was intended as such or not. I recall when Bill Hamblin emailed me and asked me to imagine what my supervisors would think if they knew I was posting on MormonDiscussions.com. Well, of course I read that as a threat. Then he got angry with me for interpreting it as such. Maybe he did not think he was threatening me. At that point, the damage was done.

I think it is possible that this person did not intend to threaten you, but I also think that you are justified in supposing it very well may be a threat.

Now, having stipulated that I am not the person who sent you these messages, I will say that I did my own research on this problem a while ago, and you were one of the people who matched some of the language I searched. Of course, other people did too, so I did not come to any conclusion. In fact, at the time I figured that this person was a lurker who was studying our board to impersonate people here in attacking DCP and thus getting this board into trouble.

Then that seemed so far-fetched that I just dropped the whole thing.

I wonder if it would be helpful to request that DCP allow us to post all of these emails somewhere so we can use the data to track this person down. Seriously, it is not in our interest to harbor the kind of person who would perpetrate criminal harassment against DCP. We would all be better off if this person knocked it off, before some of us are targets of a criminal investigation.

If that was the concern of the person who approached you, then I can sympathize with this motive.

Re: Don't Know what this is, (Don't Care) But KNOCK IT OFF!

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 10:54 am
by Dr Exiled
What led this poster to accuse Grindael? How about disclosing what led you, Mr. Poster, to think that Grindael was behind this?

Re: Don't Know what this is, (Don't Care) But KNOCK IT OFF!

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:02 am
by Kishkumen
Exiled wrote:What led this poster to accuse Grindael? How about disclosing what led you, Mr. Poster, to think that Grindael was behind this?


From the language in the second message posted above ("trail," etc.), it looks like the person probably gathered some evidence together, perhaps using methods not so different from mine, although I do not know. I took distinctive phrases and ran them through Google, limiting the search to MormonDiscussions.com. When I did that, several posters came up as possible hits for the emailer. So, I would say that we should assume the person did research of this kind and perhaps other kinds.

Re: Don't Know what this is, (Don't Care) But KNOCK IT OFF!

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:05 am
by Stem
I don't get this. If Dr. Peterson has been getting emails from someone for the past 7 years, or whatever, and he doesn't want them, feels they are harassing him, why not just send them to the trash? I'd get tons of emails I don't care for if I didn't block and filter.

Sounds like someone's looking for an excuse to harass grindael. Block the user, won't that stop messages from coming in?

Re: Don't Know what this is, (Don't Care) But KNOCK IT OFF!

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:07 am
by Jersey Girl
[violation of Universal Rule #3 deleted]

You're not sure why he made it public? Because you yourself violated UV Rule #9 and as you figured out, Rule #3 is a flawed rule that allows people to harass/accuse/abuse others behind the scenes with little to no recourse but to sit there and take it, so of course you took advantage of that and decided to screw with grindael behind the scenes due to the very rules system that affords you protection.

When I posted attacking/harassing PM's on the board years ago, I took a suspension for it. When DCP himself wouldn't stop bothering me via PM's, I replied to his messages right on the board without posting his.

Of course you wouldn't have made it public. You're the offender.

This appears to be yet another case of DCP trying to get someone else to do his bidding for him because he's above it all. He'll tell you how he's being unfairly attacked or how he didn't do a thing he's being accused of.

Then he'll sit back and watch you defend him on this board, even try to coach the person behind the scenes, and in the end he will continue to claim that he doesn't participate on this board...because he's manipulated you into doing it for him.

Re: Don't Know what this is, (Don't Care) But KNOCK IT OFF!

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:09 am
by Stem
Dammit, grindael, tell us who it is. I want to know who thinks messages from one of us discredits the whole board. That's kind of silly.

Re: Don't Know what this is, (Don't Care) But KNOCK IT OFF!

Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:12 am
by Kishkumen
Stem wrote:I don't get this. If Dr. Peterson has been getting emails from someone for the past 7 years, or whatever, and he doesn't want them, feels they are harassing him, why not just send them to the trash? I'd get tons of emails I don't care for if I didn't block and filter.

Sounds like someone's looking for an excuse to harass grindael. Block the user, won't that stop messages from coming in?


First of all, the emails are not imaginary. Someone is sending these things to DCP's email address. Some of them veer very close to threats against DCP's family members. So, it is easy to admonish DCP to ignore them, but I don't know that it is reasonable to expect him to do so. This is not SPAM from a Nigerian prince.

I don't know, also, that this is an attempt to harass grindael. The emails are real, and DCP has interacted with me and others on this board about them, soliciting our help in figuring this out. Whoever has done this has probably taken this task on because the person thinks the harassment is really wrong. Whether this has driven the person to threaten grindael is another issue. I am not sure, but I can understand grindael's interpretation, as I have been in a similar kind of exchange with Bill Hamblin.